CGS grading service

[Colin G. 147]

Hmm

I get that they have slabbed 16007 coins, of which the most popular are, Sov 2520, Shilling 2039, Penny 1502, Sixpence 1497, Halfcrown 1396.

6,500 year 2000 sovereigns leapt out at me as an insane figure when I first read it - I couldn't deal with it. I became highly stressed, started hyper ventilating and I had to check.

Everything is quiet again now....

Perhaps they are going to dish out some free gifts free sovereign with every enasement

[Accumulator 52]

Hmm

I get that they have slabbed 16007 coins, of which the most popular are, Sov 2520, Shilling 2039, Penny 1502, Sixpence 1497, Halfcrown 1396.

6,500 year 2000 sovereigns leapt out at me as an insane figure when I first read it - I couldn't deal with it. I became highly stressed, started hyper ventilating and I had to check.

Everything is quiet again now....

Perhaps they are going to dish out some free gifts free sovereign with every enasement

Maybe not as silly as it sounds. The most likely reason has to be that some organisation wishes to hand out/sell 'certified' sovereigns and struck a bulk slabbing deal with PCGS.

[Accumulator 52]

Another thought... With CGS only having slabbed 16,000 coins it's very much an 'early adopter' marketplace and ripe for new entrants. Anyone looking for backing?

Edited March 14, 2011 by Accumulator

[azda 979]

PCGS are not just across the pond, they also have certified graders in various EU countries, i've got 5 names in Germany and bought coins from 3 of them (unslabbed) i didn't actually realise that they did that until i emailed the French PCGS and She Sent me a link to the German certified graders, so i'm sure there must be someone in the UK to

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

There aren't 6500 year 2000 sovs on their population report - there are 2.

So I don't know what's happened there.

That's all I was saying.

[Peter 615]

Another thought... With CGS only having slabbed 16,000 coins it's very much an 'early adopter' marketplace and ripe for new entrants. Anyone looking for backing?

Don't jest....some early slabbed copper I have seen is an utter disgrace....even dealers stated grades (VF for issue,what is all that about?)

It is either VF or it isn't.

Logistics means all three graders need to be sitting in adjacent offices otherwise special delivery costs will price you out of the market....unless say 100 coins could be done and then posted in one package(I'm thinking on the hoof now )

[azda 979]

I keep asking the same question about CGS, so Let's try another way, don't mosr of us say that 1 mans grade is Not anothers, yet we're letting One man Tell us what is what, what are Hus credentials and who made him king of the UK grading system?

I'm only asking because a Lot of People take His grading and grading method as gospel, why?

[Colin G. 147]

I keep asking the same question about CGS, so Let's try another way, don't mosr of us say that 1 mans grade is Not anothers, yet we're letting One man Tell us what is what, what are Hus credentials and who made him king of the UK grading system?

I'm only asking because a Lot of People take His grading and grading method as gospel, why?

He is not the only grader at CGS, there are a panel of graders, who determine the grade depending on the denomination, it is no different to PCGS or NGC, I remember when it was being set up receiving some literature where they were actively looking for graders to cover fields they specialised in.

I always find I am defending CGS on this froum for some bizarre reason, but it is not the case, just that the experience I have had with London Coins and the very limited experience I have had with CGS have been very positive. It was an old topic on here previously about an 1860 mule farthing which put me off the US grading companies http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3156&st=0&p=24942&hl=+1860%20+mule&fromsearch=1entry24942. I have to admit I would rather have an English coin graded by an English company/dealer, I know it does not guarantee a positive result, but it must improve your chances of getting someone with expertise on the coins of England

Edited March 14, 2011 by Colin G.

[Hussulo 6]

I keep asking the same question about CGS, so Let's try another way, don't mosr of us say that 1 mans grade is Not anothers, yet we're letting One man Tell us what is what, what are Hus credentials and who made him king of the UK grading system?

I'm only asking because a Lot of People take His grading and grading method as gospel, why?

Me king of the UK grading system?

I don't think you meant me?

Grading is an art not a science. Until someone comes up with a computer that can scan a coins surface and determine the minutest wear and even take in account for a weak or grease filled strike, there are always going to get a difference on opinion, especially when it comes to grading by numbers.

You could show a coin to ten dealers and collectors and I'm pretty certain if they had to write down their grade on a bit of paper they wouldn't all match. Some of the more experinced dealers and collectors may agree on a grade more often then they disagreed however when it comes to grading by numbers things get trickier.

Talking of PCGS and NGC. Some say PCGS is stricter then NGC on US coins and NGC is stricter (of late) on non US coins. PCGS is certainly a market leader when it comes to US coins and US coins in PCGS plastic seem to carry a premium. NGC on the other hand seem to be the market leaders in the slabbing of non US coins. I have seen more non US coins slabbed by NGC then any other grading company.

Lately I think NGC has been grading non US (World coins) much stricter but they still aren't as strict as or UK grading.

Both NGC and PCGS are even more lenient when it comes to grading early British milled coins. I don't know if it is something to do with being softer on older coins but I have seen George I halfpennies graded aUnc when by British grading standards it would have been good VF. They have been known to miss-attributed varieties in the past as well.

The trouble is nothing a human being does can be 100% correct 100% of the time. I guess grading companies try and minimise errors when grading and attributing by having more then one grader look at each coin.

From the few examples I have seen, CGS on the other hand seem to grade quite strictly, even by British standards.

I sent this 1887 halfcrown to them to see what they would give it. I personally would have called it Unc but it cam back aUnc75 (pictures don't do it justice):

http://www.prestigenumismatics.com/1887-victoria-halfcrown-cgs-au75-53-p.asp

[Colin G. 147]

Me king of the UK grading system?

The wonders of modern technology, Dave's phone has a mind of it's own

[1949threepence 3,367]

It's interesting to compare PCGS and NGS. According to their websites, PCGS has slabbed over 21,000,000 coins, whereas NGS has 16,000 to it's name. In business terms, it's rather like comparing Macdonalds to your local chippie!

Nevertheless, it's horses for courses and as we are discussing British coins it's worth taking a closer look at the figures. The 'population reports' for NGS and PCGS are both available on-line (you do have to register with NGS first though) and it’s interesting that PCGS have certified 10,500 British coins of which, staggeringly, 6,500 are year 2000 sovereigns! One wonders whether they were asked to do this for one client? So, stripping out this big anomaly (and there may be others that I failed to notice) the balance for British coins is very much in favour of NGS. Of course, PCGS are now in Europe and, judging by their website, making major inroads, particularly in France.

I think, on balance, I would go CGS though.

For purely British coins, so would I.

[Accumulator 52]

There aren't 6500 year 2000 sovs on their population report - there are 2.

So I don't know what's happened there.

That's all I was saying.

Are you looking at CGS? There's actually 6,536 year 2000 sovereigns in the PCGS population report right now.

[VickySilver 830]

Not to "rag" on CGS but I pointed out that the slabbed farthing they had on display at the NYINC show in fact was an 1875 H and not London minted specimen. Also I have a CGS 85 1935 Specimen crown that is clearly inferior to the PCGS65 of the same coin - only a population of two but are two anecdotes worth mentioning...

Mostly I think that CGS does a fair job, as does PCGS with NGC as a bit of an also-ran.

[declanwmagee 122]

Me king of the UK grading system?

Exactly. Everyone know's that's Derek.

[Colin G. 147]

Not to "rag" on CGS but I pointed out that the slabbed farthing they had on display at the NYINC show in fact was an 1875 H and not London minted specimen. Also I have a CGS 85 1935 Specimen crown that is clearly inferior to the PCGS65 of the same coin - only a population of two but are two anecdotes worth mentioning...

The farthing issue is certainly a worry but I suppose human error is always a potential, if it becomes a common issue that's when confidence will drop.

The big issue for me with the mule was that PCGS defended the attribution

[RLC35 288]

I keep asking the same question about CGS, so Let's try another way, don't mosr of us say that 1 mans grade is Not anothers, yet we're letting One man Tell us what is what, what are Hus credentials and who made him king of the UK grading system?

I'm only asking because a Lot of People take His grading and grading method as gospel, why?

He is not the only grader at CGS, there are a panel of graders, who determine the grade depending on the denomination, it is no different to PCGS or NGC, I remember when it was being set up receiving some literature where they were actively looking for graders to cover fields they specialised in.

I always find I am defending CGS on this froum for some bizarre reason, but it is not the case, just that the experience I have had with London Coins and the very limited experience I have had with CGS have been very positive. It was an old topic on here previously about an 1860 mule farthing which put me off the US grading companies http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3156&st=0&p=24942&hl=+1860%20+mule&fromsearch=1entry24942. I have to admit I would rather have an English coin graded by an English company/dealer, I know it does not guarantee a positive result, but it must improve your chances of getting someone with expertise on the coins of England

Colin,

I remember the controversy about the 1860 Farthing Mule on this Forum. The Person from PCGS, who supported the PCGS Grading of the Mule, was an Officer of the Company, and he was supporting what was obviously a mistaken ID on the Mule. He even went further to give the seller a letter stating it was genuine, and there was a second try at selling the Mule for 6 times the original price of $600! After that, I have had nothing to do with PCGS. The only American Company I deal with now is NGC, I just don't trust PCGS anymore!

As for the difference in grading between USA and Britain grading, you are always going to have that, as long as one uses a 70 point system, and another uses a 100 point system. BTW...in the USA they are toying with the idea of a 700 point system, instead of a 70 point system. I am not sure of the value of a 700 point system though!

[Hussulo 6]

Me king of the UK grading system?

Exactly. Everyone know's that's Derek.

Thats what I was going to suggest. Derek is the man he even wrote the book!

[1949threepence 3,367]

He is not the only grader at CGS, there are a panel of graders, who determine the grade depending on the denomination, it is no different to PCGS or NGC, I remember when it was being set up receiving some literature where they were actively looking for graders to cover fields they specialised in.

I always find I am defending CGS on this froum for some bizarre reason, but it is not the case, just that the experience I have had with London Coins and the very limited experience I have had with CGS have been very positive. It was an old topic on here previously about an 1860 mule farthing which put me off the US grading companies http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3156&st=0&p=24942&hl=+1860%20+mule&fromsearch=1entry24942. I have to admit I would rather have an English coin graded by an English company/dealer, I know it does not guarantee a positive result, but it must improve your chances of getting someone with expertise on the coins of England

Colin,

I remember the controversy about the 1860 Farthing Mule on this Forum. The Person from PCGS, who supported the PCGS Grading of the Mule, was an Officer of the Company, and he was supporting what was obviously a mistaken ID on the Mule. He even went further to give the seller a letter stating it was genuine, and there was a second try at selling the Mule for 6 times the original price of $600! After that, I have had nothing to do with PCGS. The only American Company I deal with now is NGC, I just don't trust PCGS anymore!

As for the difference in grading between USA and Britain grading, you are always going to have that, as long as one uses a 70 point system, and another uses a 100 point system. BTW...in the USA they are toying with the idea of a 700 point system, instead of a 70 point system. I am not sure of the value of a 700 point system though!

Nor me. I'm just trying to envisage how, precisely, it would operate. Logically, one might assume an increase in the number of grading points for each level, from 10 to 100. So instead of say MS63, you might have a further refinement to perhaps MS637 or 638. If that is the case, then surely it would stretch subjectivity to its absolute outer limits. I'm not convinced that any one person is actually capable of quantifying an essentially subjective assessment to such a level of accuracy. Maybe a panel of 10 + scorers, looking at the same item, and then scoring the coin with an average of their marks might be an option ?

Edited March 14, 2011 by 1949threepence

[Rob 3,152]

7, 70 or 700 point grading, beauty was, is and always will be in the eye of the beholder. If I like it I will buy it and if I don't I won't.

The problem with collecting by numbers is the conumdrum posed by what to do with the VF coin that is as good as they come - but if you get it then your average score is dragged down and that's an egotistical dilemma. Going to a 700 point system would unquestionably be wholeheartedly embraced by the number collectors because it gives x9 more chances to claim the superior coin.

[Hussulo 6]

I've not heard of a 700 point scale being used but lately PCGS and NGC have been adding a + (plus) to their grades. So if you had an MS63 coin that was at the top end of its grade but not quite a MS64 it will get an MS63+ grade.

NGC have also added the * (star) to some of their coins. The * is supposed to indicate an eye appealing (usually nicely toned coin).

You have to remember back when the TGP's (third party grading) companies started , one of their aims was to offer a third party opinion one could trust and thus bid or buy a coin without actually seeing it in hand. This was before the advent of the internet and large colour pictures in auction and dealer catalogues.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Hussulo

[Benny who 6]

I think to preserve the coins,slabs are the best option.

If you buy a coin that is beautifully toned,the last thing you want is for that to disappear.I have also bounced a few slabs on the floor,and would prefer to crack plastic,than flatten metal.As long you are happy with the coin,their grade won't matter so much,and when you sell break it out.

CGS also let you look at past invoices,so heaven forbid anything where to happen to your collection,it's a backup-"ins purposes".

I did have a few NGC that were wrongly slabbed which I cracked and had re-attributed.

[RLC35 288]

Cracking out a coin, and re-slabbing, hoping to upgrade the resultant grade has been very popular of late. I know a lot of collectors that do it. I can see the benefit, it the coin is on the cusp of a higher grade. It would seem that it might get expensive though at $20 to $50 per coin! I have never done it myself.

[Rob 3,152]

I did have a few NGC that were wrongly slabbed which I cracked and had re-attributed.

I've had a couple dozen NGCs that were incorrectly attributed and which I cracked out. Checking the label is a really good way of getting a bargain, because they get it wrong on a regular basis - usually failing to identify a rare feature. My 1839/41 proof halfpenny in the unlisted varieties section springs to mind as an obvious failure; or Hus's 1844 1/3 farthing described as a half by PCGS despite not having the words HALF FARTHING in big friendly letters on the front (with apologies to Douglas Adams).

[Peckris 579]

Question 2: Would there be any point in slabbing a Conder Halfpenny with the Anglesey Druid in XF?

None at all.

The flaw here, is that newbie collectors with a fat wallet, will buy slabbed coins by that reasoning, but then will learn nothing about what it means to examine a coin 'in hand' and learn about grading for themselves.

And that must be their target market, along with the authentication benefits

For the seasoned collector/numismatist then it becomes a matter of choice/storage, and this the market that will be the hardest to break, but it seems to have captured a large portion of the market in the USA, so is it inevitable that it will slowly happen over here?

I am not necessarily an advocate just condiering the facts

All I can say is, I hope not

[Peter 615]

I did have a few NGC that were wrongly slabbed which I cracked and had re-attributed.

I've had a couple dozen NGCs that were incorrectly attributed and which I cracked out. Checking the label is a really good way of getting a bargain, because they get it wrong on a regular basis - usually failing to identify a rare feature. My 1839/41 proof halfpenny in the unlisted varieties section springs to mind as an obvious failure; or Hus's 1844 1/3 farthing described as a half by PCGS despite not having the words HALF FARTHING in big friendly letters on the front (with apologies to Douglas Adams).

I have no NGC's but a few PCGS of which I haven't a problem with.I also have a few (self certified ?)NNC slabs...again the coins seem OK...I bought a VF30 1859 farthing and it is abt VF (Shamrock detached )

I also have a BU collection of Mr Adams radio series on CD & the TV series on DVD...thank you Amazon and my girls for listening to what Dad wanted for Xmas.