Did anyone win anything at today's Spink sale?

[Rob 3,152]

As the title says. I only won 1 token.

Most things were were going way over an already toppy estimate; frequently double, and that was before adding in 24% premium. I don't know who was paying these amounts, but just about everything was going for way in excess of what dealers could realistically hope to sell them on for even without a mark-up, so it had to be individuals with deep pockets and a large surplus of capital. Probably the biggest hike was the P&M shilling in gVF, lot 152. Estimate £2000-2500, realised £10K + prem (£12400). Even the humble Edward I Newcastle halfpenny in VF lot 67, which I was hoping to get, made £400 + Premium compared to a book VF price of £150. Crazy prices, but I guess there's always tomorrow to look forward to.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Lot 635 (copper and bronze x 39) a speculative bid on a speculative description.

The lots I knew and bid accordingly on resulted in my arse being kicked!

I had a go at their 1845 "star stops" Crown just for a laugh but it trebled the estimate (was being sold with 3 other crowns).

Yes Rob, there's always tomorrow, although I expect to turn the other cheek and have it booted as well!!!!

[azda 979]

Its getting a little scary out there gents

[VickySilver 836]

Other later milled highlights?

[Rob 3,152]

Other later milled highlights?

1918KN penny opened at £950. Even though it had visible signs of friction in the catalogue image, that's £1178 including premium compared to a Spink 2011 UNC price of £1100 which is allegedly for no wear and full lustre. It closed at £1000 (£1240). Gothic crown lot 679 made £4200 (£5208). Proof sets, the 1826 made £34000 (£42160), the 1887 £10K (£12400), the 1893 £17K (£21080), the 1911 £4800 (£5952), 1937 gold £4K (£4960). The 1865 Minton pattern penny made £2600 (£3224) and finally the 1714 prince elector guinea hammered at £12K (£14880) against a book price in EF of £5750.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Rob

[Gary 7]

memories of the late 70's early 80's? Investors turning to other sources in these troubled times? Pushing up market prices!

[Rob 3,152]

memories of the late 70's early 80's? Investors turning to other sources in these troubled times? Pushing up market prices!

Apparently, there are a few city people wanting to spend money, not to mention arabs and Americans etc. Every single one of us has to live within a budget, it's just the 0.001 % of collectors whose limit is not in danger of being reached who push the prices up on the desirable pieces. If you have a few million to spend this week, 20 or 30 thousand is neither here nor there. If two are in the same room bidding against each other, it doesn't matter whether the price is £2K, £5K or £10K. And when the time comes to sell, some will go for less than paid and some for more, but the actual number is unlikely to be important in the overall picture of that individual's wealth.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Rob

[VickySilver 836]

Wow, big number on the 18KN. I got a spare one at least the equal I would sell for a mite less....

[Guest richbedforduk]

You are all sounding down about this. Is it only the top end coins that made strong money? How did mid stuff hold up? Do you get lower end stuff at these auctions, if so how did that area do?

Surely long term collectors can sell off low end coins at the top of the market and buy in top end coins at the bottom of the market?

If base metal costs increase, such as in the current market, logic suggests that this increase must filter through to the higher grade coins.

If coins are generally making strong money I am very pleased.

[declanwmagee 122]

Well, down at my end of the market it's going nuts as well. I usually buy for half the CCGB price but I'm getting my arse kicked using that rule every night. I probably win 10% of what I bid on.

It means the margins on what I'm selling are very healthy, because I bought most of it a while ago, but I am constantly worrying about running out of stock - got to keep the wheel spinning you see.

So do I drop my standards on grade just to keep the numbers up (no, definitely not!), or do I change my rules for determining maximum bid? Makes me grind my teeth but I might have to.

[Rob 3,152]

You are all sounding down about this. Is it only the top end coins that made strong money? How did mid stuff hold up? Do you get lower end stuff at these auctions, if so how did that area do?

Surely long term collectors can sell off low end coins at the top of the market and buy in top end coins at the bottom of the market?

If base metal costs increase, such as in the current market, logic suggests that this increase must filter through to the higher grade coins.

If coins are generally making strong money I am very pleased.

The low to mid range pieces made Spink book up to say 25% extra. The problem is the gulf between the also rans and the better pieces. The P&M shilling in the above post sold for £10K hammer to someone from the city. On the following page in the catalogue there was half a dozen P&M shillings all around the fine mark which made a couple hundred each or so. Those will probably go onto ebay where they will make their money plus a bit, but if the gulf between Fine and good VF is 10K for a grade and a half how are people going to trade up? If 6 shillings in fine equals about 10% of a gVF, that's a huge difference. The top of the market is striding forwards, but as always there is a surfeit of low to middle grade coins relative to the number of collectors. The market will never run out of lower grade material apart from a few known rarities, so only ebay produces stellar returns for crap where the uninitiated pay over the top for a trace of detail. Go to a dealer's table at a coin fair and there is inevitably plenty of choice, as long as you don't want really nice pieces.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Rob

[Guest richbedforduk]

You are all sounding down about this. Is it only the top end coins that made strong money? How did mid stuff hold up? Do you get lower end stuff at these auctions, if so how did that area do?

Surely long term collectors can sell off low end coins at the top of the market and buy in top end coins at the bottom of the market?

If base metal costs increase, such as in the current market, logic suggests that this increase must filter through to the higher grade coins.

If coins are generally making strong money I am very pleased.

The low to mid range pieces made Spink book up to say 25% extra. The problem is the gulf between the also rans and the better pieces. The P&M shilling in the above post sold for £10K hammer to someone from the city. On the following page in the catalogue there was half a dozen P&M shillings all around the fine mark which made a couple hundred each or so. Those will probably go onto ebay where they will make their money plus a bit, but if the gulf between Fine and good VF is 10K for a grade and a half how are people going to trade up? If 6 shillings in fine equals about 10% of a gVF, that's a huge difference. The top of the market is striding forwards, but as always there is a surfeit of low to middle grade coins relative to the number of collectors. The market will never run out of lower grade material apart from a few known rarities, so only ebay produces stellar returns for crap where the uninitiated pay over the top for a trace of detail. Go to a dealer's table at a coin fair and there is inevitably plenty of choice, as long as you don't want really nice pieces.

P&M shillings ? Talking in tongues I'm afraid. But if ever someone offers to give a P&M shilling I will remember to accept.

Obviously I'm a novice, but it doesn't seem strange to me. With time, coins will not attain a better condition, they can only remain the same or deteriorate. Also some people will acquire quality coins and put them away. The top end of the market will find that supply diminishes and, unless demand falls, price will increase.

Meanwhile, at the lower end, the supply of coins should be more than healthy. Coins will drop down from higher grades, cupboards will be cleared of grannies coins (that were only sat on because they had no real value), and people will pass them on between themselves as the incentive to retain them is lower at this end. This is supressing the price. Until now maybe?

I have read you guys talk about the ethics of melting down low end ballast. In the current market, removing the poor to good (or possibly fine) grades of common coins from the market will do no harm to the remaining coins. As holders of stocks of coins you should benefit financially. There may be short term problems for you that are dealers, trying to locate affordable stock, but you wouldn't complain if your current stock suddenly went up in value would you?

[argentumandcoins 70]

Hurray 3 lots won!!!!! Like Declan on ebay though it equates to a 10% success rate.

[Peckris 579]

P&M shillings ? Talking in tongues I'm afraid. But if ever someone offers to give a P&M shilling I will remember to accept.

Obviously I'm a novice, but it doesn't seem strange to me. With time, coins will not attain a better condition, they can only remain the same or deteriorate. Also some people will acquire quality coins and put them away. The top end of the market will find that supply diminishes and, unless demand falls, price will increase.

Meanwhile, at the lower end, the supply of coins should be more than healthy. Coins will drop down from higher grades, cupboards will be cleared of grannies coins (that were only sat on because they had no real value), and people will pass them on between themselves as the incentive to retain them is lower at this end. This is supressing the price. Until now maybe?

I have read you guys talk about the ethics of melting down low end ballast. In the current market, removing the poor to good (or possibly fine) grades of common coins from the market will do no harm to the remaining coins. As holders of stocks of coins you should benefit financially. There may be short term problems for you that are dealers, trying to locate affordable stock, but you wouldn't complain if your current stock suddenly went up in value would you?

Either I'm showing my ignorance, or that's a typo for D&M which stands for "Doriens and Magens" shilling, an unissued shilling of George III which is quite rare and highly sought-after.

I'm not sure about removing the 'lower end coins'. Obviously the commonest and poorest, yes. But otherwise, where are new collectors - e.g. schoolkids on very low incomes - going to turn when they start out? No low end coins, no schoolkid collectors, no future lifeblood for the hobby.

[Cerbera100 0]

Huh... I was working on Philip and Mary... especially on the premise that Rob mentions 'half a dozen on the next page'... Are there seven 1798 shillings about?!

[Rob 3,152]

Huh... I was working on Philip and Mary... especially on the premise that Rob mentions 'half a dozen on the next page'... Are there seven 1798 shillings about?!

Correct on the first point and yes there are on the second.