Die variations of the 1787 Shilling & Six Pence - scans wanted&#33

[seuk 85]

Hello - I'm a danish collector and new to this forum... I'm mostly into collecting contemporary counterfeits of George III silver coins but also try to find as many different dies of the 1787 shilling+six pence as possible.

I would like to know if anything has been published on the die variations of these coins?

Also; is 746,480 the correct production number for the shilling? - and what is the number for the six pence?

So far I have for the shilling: 21 different of both reverse and obverse dies.

For the Six Pence I've found 13 obverse and 12 reverse dies.

And it seems that there are quite a few more to be found of both denominations.

If anyone can provide scans (1200 dpi) of these coins I would be very happy to receive them for study.

If so please mail them to seuk@mail.dk - when I've more material I'll publish it on my homepage. Were I've allready published a small study of the Danish 1 skilling 1771 cobber coin: http://www.steppeulvene.com/index.1771_skilling.html (in Danish)

[Rob 3,152]

Hello - I'm a danish collector and new to this forum... I'm mostly into collecting contemporary counterfeits of George III silver coins but also try to find as many different dies of the 1787 shilling+six pence as possible.

I would like to know if anything has been published on the die variations of these coins?

Also; is 746,480 the correct production number for the shilling? - and what is the number for the six pence?

So far I have for the shilling: 21 different of both reverse and obverse dies.

For the Six Pence I've found 13 obverse and 12 reverse dies.

And it seems that there are quite a few more to be found of both denominations.

If anyone can provide scans (1200 dpi) of these coins I would be very happy to receive them for study.

If so please mail them to seuk@mail.dk - when I've more material I'll publish it on my homepage. Were I've allready published a small study of the Danish 1 skilling 1771 cobber coin: http://www.steppeulvene.com/index.1771_skilling.html (in Danish)

Considering the huge numbers of these available and consequent low cost given their age, it is surprising that no die study has been made as far as I am aware. If it has been done in the past, the author hasn't publicised it very well!!

I don't know what the production was of either denomination, but if the above number is true and you have 21 pairs of shilling dies I would think that you have most of them. An average of 30-35000 ish per die sounds like a reasonable estimate for the expected lifetime of the dies. In 1825, the halfpennies were averaging about 50,000 per die. With an allowance for technological progress over time, 30K plus doesn't sound too far wide of the mark for 1787.

[seuk 85]

Considering the huge numbers of these available and consequent low cost given their age, it is surprising that no die study has been made as far as I am aware. If it has been done in the past, the author hasn't publicised it very well!!

I don't know what the production was of either denomination, but if the above number is true and you have 21 pairs of shilling dies I would think that you have most of them. An average of 30-35000 ish per die sounds like a reasonable estimate for the expected lifetime of the dies. In 1825, the halfpennies were averaging about 50,000 per die. With an allowance for technological progress over time, 30K plus doesn't sound too far wide of the mark for 1787.

Perhaps I'll be the first then

For a similar shilling-size silver coin minted in Germany - I've seen a figure of abuth 44,000 for each die and 66,000 for a coin about the same size as the six pence. But if the dies were not properly hardened the production figures would drop considerably (fx half of the above).

So my guess is either that's just what happened; or the production figures were higher than my sources indicate.

A History of Modern English Coinage (by James Mackay - Longman 1984)

"In 1787, when the market price of silver dropped substantially, some £87,000 worth was coined for general circulation, mainly in shillings and sixpences." [guess the figure includes guineas?]

The Splendid Shilling (by James O'Donald Mays - New Forest Leaves 1982)

"In 1787 the price of silver declined slightly and the Bank of England ordered £55,280 in new coins from the Mint"

...and just found this which includes the sixpence figure

http://www.numsoc.net/sixpence.html

"The silver coinage of 1787 was ordered, not by the Government for general circulation, but by the Bank of England for distribution at Christmas to its favoured customers. As the price of the silver required was consistently above the Mint price of 5/2d an ounce, the coins were struck at a loss, which the Bank accepted. £55,280 worth of silver at the mint price was turned into 746,480 shillings and 712,380 sixpences at a loss of more than £1,100. Each coin was struck carefully to the highest standards achievable with the manually powered presses of the time."

[azda 979]

Considering the huge numbers of these available and consequent low cost given their age, it is surprising that no die study has been made as far as I am aware. If it has been done in the past, the author hasn't publicised it very well!!

I don't know what the production was of either denomination, but if the above number is true and you have 21 pairs of shilling dies I would think that you have most of them. An average of 30-35000 ish per die sounds like a reasonable estimate for the expected lifetime of the dies. In 1825, the halfpennies were averaging about 50,000 per die. With an allowance for technological progress over time, 30K plus doesn't sound too far wide of the mark for 1787.

Perhaps I'll be the first then

For a similar shilling-size silver coin minted in Germany - I've seen a figure of abuth 44,000 for each die and 66,000 for a coin about the same size as the six pence. But if the dies were not properly hardened the production figures would drop considerably (fx half of the above).

So my guess is either that's just what happened; or the production figures were higher than my sources indicate.

A History of Modern English Coinage (by James Mackay - Longman 1984)

"In 1787, when the market price of silver dropped substantially, some £87,000 worth was coined for general circulation, mainly in shillings and sixpences." [guess the figure includes guineas?]

The Splendid Shilling (by James O'Donald Mays - New Forest Leaves 1982)

"In 1787 the price of silver declined slightly and the Bank of England ordered £55,280 in new coins from the Mint"

...and just found this which includes the sixpence figure

http://www.numsoc.net/sixpence.html

"The silver coinage of 1787 was ordered, not by the Government for general circulation, but by the Bank of England for distribution at Christmas to its favoured customers. As the price of the silver required was consistently above the Mint price of 5/2d an ounce, the coins were struck at a loss, which the Bank accepted. £55,280 worth of silver at the mint price was turned into 746,480 shillings and 712,380 sixpences at a loss of more than £1,100. Each coin was struck carefully to the highest standards achievable with the manually powered presses of the time."

Guineas are made of gold

[seuk 85]

[Rob 3,152]

The numsoc.net page futher mentions: "An excellent study of the shillings of this issue by H.E.Manville and P.P.Gaspar appeared in the British Numismatic Journal, Vol 74, 2004. The sequence of proofs, the very rare patterns of 1786, the die varieties of 1787, and the extremely well-known ‘no-hearts’ and ‘hearts’ variations of the Hanoverian arms, were comprehensively covered."

Anyone who can provide a copy of this study???

I've got one for sale on the website. I have to confess I'd forgotten about it.

[seuk 85]

I've got one for sale on the website. I have to confess I'd forgotten about it.

No sure if I know your website... Could you send me a link?

[Rob 3,152]

here is what you want. BNJ vol. 74 (2004) near the end of the BNJs