"Freedom of information" requests to the Royal Mint

[1949threepence 3,369]

I noticed this facility when trawling through the Royal Mint website recently, and thought I would punt some reasonably standard questions to see what the response was. Lo and behold within just a couple of days, I got a response. here is a copy and paste of the e mail exchange, minus my details:-

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Payne

To:

Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 1:21 PM

Subject: The Royal Mint

Dear Mr

I am writing in reply to your Freedom of Information request of 30 April.

To take each of your questions in turn:

(1) The Royal Mint Annual Report for 1882 states that no bronze coinage was struck at the Royal Mint during the year and that all the bronze coinage required was executed in Birmingham. We are aware however that an un-mintmarked type is recorded in standard catalogues.

(2) We are unable to break down the mintage figure for 1926-dated pennies into the two different types.

(3) The 1954-dated penny is listed as unique in standard catalogues but we are unable to say for certain that only one survived from the trial run of several hundreds.

(4) No 1953-dated pennies were issued for general circulation.

Yours sincerely

Joseph Payne

Assistant Curator

The Royal Mint

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:

Sent: 30 April 2011 14:57

To: informationoffice

Subject: Freedom of information request

Hi,

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST

My name is

I would like to ask the following archival type questions regarding British pre decimal pennies:-

1/ Were any pennies minted at the London Mint bearing the date 1882 (ie: without the "H" underneath the date), or were they all minted at the Heaton mint in Birmingham, and show an "H" below the date ?

2/ How many pennies bearing the date 1926, were minted with the King's effigy modifed to appear the same as it does on pennies dated 1927 ?

3/ Other than the one already known about, were any pennies bearing the date 1954 minted ?

4/ Were any pennies bearing the date 1953 issued for general circulation, or did they all form part of commemorative sets issued that year, to mark the Queen's coronation ?

Thanks for your time.

30 April 2011

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This e-mail is from the Royal Mint Limited. The information in this e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful.

If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the Royal Mint's IT Security Officer using the e-mail address: ITSO@royalmint.com.

The Royal Mint Limited whose registered office is at Llantrisant, Pontyclun, Mid-Glamorgan CF72 8YT, United Kingdom (registered in England and Wales No. 06964873).

Scanned by iCritical.

Think up some useful questions guys. It appears the world is your oyster !!!

Freedom of information link

Edited May 4, 2011 by 1949threepence

[Peckris 579]

Wow, several hundred 1954s? I wonder if that was a standard amount for a trial run? It would be fairly remarkable indeed if only one escaped.

What prompted the 1953 question - I thought it was "common knowledge" (LOL) that they were only issued in the plastic packs? (Excluding proofs and the ultra-rare 'first reverse' pattern).

[1949threepence 3,369]

Wow, several hundred 1954s? I wonder if that was a standard amount for a trial run? It would be fairly remarkable indeed if only one escaped.

What prompted the 1953 question - I thought it was "common knowledge" (LOL) that they were only issued in the plastic packs? (Excluding proofs and the ultra-rare 'first reverse' pattern).

From the condition of those offered for sale, it's absolutely clear that a fair few entered general circulation, so I did wonder if it was possible that some had been sent to banks in various parts of the country. Apparently not.

[Peckris 579]

Wow, several hundred 1954s? I wonder if that was a standard amount for a trial run? It would be fairly remarkable indeed if only one escaped.

What prompted the 1953 question - I thought it was "common knowledge" (LOL) that they were only issued in the plastic packs? (Excluding proofs and the ultra-rare 'first reverse' pattern).

From the condition of those offered for sale, it's absolutely clear that a fair few entered general circulation, so I did wonder if it was possible that some had been sent to banks in various parts of the country. Apparently not.

Oh right. I've always assumed that a decent proportion of those million plus plastic sets got opened and raided. Funnily enough, the only penny from the 1950s I found a schoolboy 'bank bag checker' in the late 60s, was a solitary 1953 in AVF.

[Beebman 2]

Wow, several hundred 1954s? I wonder if that was a standard amount for a trial run? It would be fairly remarkable indeed if only one escaped.

What prompted the 1953 question - I thought it was "common knowledge" (LOL) that they were only issued in the plastic packs? (Excluding proofs and the ultra-rare 'first reverse' pattern).

From the condition of those offered for sale, it's absolutely clear that a fair few entered general circulation, so I did wonder if it was possible that some had been sent to banks in various parts of the country. Apparently not.

Oh right. I've always assumed that a decent proportion of those million plus plastic sets got opened and raided. Funnily enough, the only penny from the 1950s I found a schoolboy 'bank bag checker' in the late 60s, was a solitary 1953 in AVF.

I found a 1953 penny in GVF with lustre traces (which I still have) in the change from the milkman sometime circa 1969, so yes some did get into circulation.

[Red Riley 2]

Having worked in a regulated environment, I do feel a little uneasy about using the Freedom of Information Act 2000 to obtain what is essentially run of the mill information from the mint. For one thing this wasn't what the Act was designed for, its main purpose being to prevent officialdom both in the public and private sectors from hiding inconvenient truths behind such defences as 'not in the public interest' or 'it is not our policy to divulge such information'. Although they have clearly given you the information requested, in the background they will have had to go through all manner of time-consuming bureaucratic hoops to ensure that their response complied with the act and was recorded as an FoI request. If I were to give an example of the sort of information the Act was designed for in so far as it related to the mint, it would be to explore their commercial dealings with various unpleasant Middle Eastern or African regimes, especially with regard to 'inducements' etc. paid to these regimes.

By all means use the Act if your first or second request seems to have fallen on stony ground but otherwise it's a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut and you might eventually end up with a very rude response!

[scott 145]

coulda asked about the 1933's though

[SionGilbey 1]

Having worked in a regulated environment, I do feel a little uneasy about using the Freedom of Information Act 2000 to obtain what is essentially run of the mill information from the mint. For one thing this wasn't what the Act was designed for, its main purpose being to prevent officialdom both in the public and private sectors from hiding inconvenient truths behind such defences as 'not in the public interest' or 'it is not our policy to divulge such information'. Although they have clearly given you the information requested, in the background they will have had to go through all manner of time-consuming bureaucratic hoops to ensure that their response complied with the act and was recorded as an FoI request. If I were to give an example of the sort of information the Act was designed for in so far as it related to the mint, it would be to explore their commercial dealings with various unpleasant Middle Eastern or African regimes, especially with regard to 'inducements' etc. paid to these regimes.

By all means use the Act if your first or second request seems to have fallen on stony ground but otherwise it's a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut and you might eventually end up with a very rude response!

There's also a contact for which goes out to the exact same guy, the assistant Curator Mr. Payne.

Just fill it in the same way and it doesn't seem quite as rude.

http://www.royalmint.com/ContactUs/full_details.aspx

[1949threepence 3,369]

Having worked in a regulated environment, I do feel a little uneasy about using the Freedom of Information Act 2000 to obtain what is essentially run of the mill information from the mint. For one thing this wasn't what the Act was designed for, its main purpose being to prevent officialdom both in the public and private sectors from hiding inconvenient truths behind such defences as 'not in the public interest' or 'it is not our policy to divulge such information'. Although they have clearly given you the information requested, in the background they will have had to go through all manner of time-consuming bureaucratic hoops to ensure that their response complied with the act and was recorded as an FoI request. If I were to give an example of the sort of information the Act was designed for in so far as it related to the mint, it would be to explore their commercial dealings with various unpleasant Middle Eastern or African regimes, especially with regard to 'inducements' etc. paid to these regimes.

By all means use the Act if your first or second request seems to have fallen on stony ground but otherwise it's a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut and you might eventually end up with a very rude response!

Well, precisely. Not only have I experienced at first hand, e mail enquiries to the Royal Mint being totally ignored, but I think the difficulties others have also encountered in this regard, is already documented on here.

I will use the Act to obtain the information I want, especially as there is no criteria laid down as to the type of enquiry considered valid, save for overly time consuming questions, and ones for which the answer is already available.

That said, I wouldn't make a habit of pestering them every five minutes with trivia. I'd also add that I have sent a reply e mail to Mr Payne thanking him for his time and effort, which I genuinely appreciated.

There's also a contact for which goes out to the exact same guy, the assistant Curator Mr. Payne.

Just fill it in the same way and it doesn't seem quite as rude.

http://www.royalmint.com/ContactUs/full_details.aspx

I sincerely hope my e mail enquiry didn't come across as rude, Sion. I'd be mortified if it did.

At the end of the day, the facility is offered up for public use, with no draconian pre-conditions, and I legitimately took advantage. I honestly don't see that as in any way wrong.

Sorry guys.

Edited May 5, 2011 by 1949threepence

[scott 145]

should ask about die numbers on the 1862 halfpenny and 1863 pennys, and why those dates, and the 1897 high tide, 1895 tridents and 1903 open 3

[SionGilbey 1]

I sincerely hope my e mail enquiry didn't come across as rude, Sion. I'd be mortified if it did.

At the end of the day, the facility is offered up for public use, with no draconian pre-conditions, and I legitimately took advantage. I honestly don't see that as in any way wrong.

Sorry guys.

I didn't find any part of it rude, but when you demand information with the force of the law behind you as opposed to simply asking them for a bit of help with your research the latter seems more polite.

[azda 984]

On 5/4/2011 at 8:29 PM, 1949threepence said:

I noticed this facility when trawling through the Royal Mint website recently, and thought I would punt some reasonably standard questions to see what the response was. Lo and behold within just a couple of days, I got a response. here is a copy and paste of the e mail exchange, minus my details:-

Think up some useful questions guys. It appears the world is your oyster !!!

Freedom of information link

The Freedom of information link is gone 

[copper123 1,611]

On 5/6/2011 at 1:37 AM, scott said:

should ask about die numbers on the 1862 halfpenny and 1863 pennys, and why those dates, and the 1897 high tide, 1895 tridents and 1903 open 3

I would imagine any details about these are lost in the mists of time

[1949threepence 3,369]

5 hours ago, azda said:

The Freedom of information link is gone 

Indeed - and I think it's disappeared rather than moved.

[AardHawk 73]

I put a request for some info on the 5th Feb and previously a couple of month before, but have never received a reply. I think you get asked when you make a request for information whether you want to make it an FOI request. I decided against as I thought it was inappropriate. Next time I wont mess about.  

[1949threepence 3,369]

8 hours ago, copper123 said:

I would imagine any details about these are lost in the mists of time

You're probably right, but it wouldn't do any harm to test the waters - always assuming there's anybody there who has the remotest clue as to how to follow up on actually answering the question in a meaningful way.

2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Indeed - and I think it's disappeared rather than moved.

I tell a lie - link

[VickySilver 923]

And I have wanted to know the actual net number of sets struck and released for countries like Jamaica - NOT the maximum mintage limits!