Will fake coins become harded to detect?

[coin watch 1]

Hi all,

Fake coins....well I know it's not a new thing, but it's something I have been thinking on quite a bit of late.

I have an interest in English late hammered, it's a series that has contemporary copies which are in the most part easy to detect (even with an untrained eye) with later and modern copies becoming more accurate but still with a bit of knowledge detectable. What I often think of is how far can fakes/forgeries/copies (call it what you will) go? With the ever ongoing advances in accessible abilities available to the average man in the street will a 'dodgy' coin get to the point were it is virtually impossible to see if it's real. It kind of worries me a bit especially with a coin that has cost a considerable amount but with no provenance to prove.

Should we only buy coins with the best provenance with maybe an old illustration to prove it's worth?

Would like your thoughts please.

[Peckris 579]

It is a worry. Some dealers (e.g. Format Coins in Birmingham) have all but given up dealing in British coins because of the flood of fakes showing up, especially from places like China. And the fakes are getting better - but many are produced from genuine coins, so the fakes come complete with all the peculiarities and flaws of the original. However, few people have either the opportunity to study several pieces side by side, or to consult the - as yet non-existent - database of fakes.

It is certainly a good idea to get provenance, though to say that a coin without it is therefore 'suspect' would be a minor disaster to the hobby (and I'm sure many would ignore that inference). It does mean, sadly, that slabbing services which guarantee the authenticity of a slabbed item, are going to become more and more popular.

Caveat emptor.

[declanwmagee 122]

slabbing services which guarantee the authenticity of a slabbed item, are going to become more and more popular.

How can they tell, do you think? What do they know that you lot don't?

[coin watch 1]

It is a worry. Some dealers (e.g. Format Coins in Birmingham) have all but given up dealing in British coins because of the flood of fakes showing up, especially from places like China. And the fakes are getting better - but many are produced from genuine coins, so the fakes come complete with all the peculiarities and flaws of the original. However, few people have either the opportunity to study several pieces side by side, or to consult the - as yet non-existent - database of fakes.

It is certainly a good idea to get provenance, though to say that a coin without it is therefore 'suspect' would be a minor disaster to the hobby (and I'm sure many would ignore that inference). It does mean, sadly, that slabbing services which guarantee the authenticity of a slabbed item, are going to become more and more popular.

Caveat emptor.

I'm not sure about the slabbing thing when it comes to hammered, or with any coin really as with what has previously been said "who is the person who slabs"? Experts?! I suppose I am hoping this is not the way forward, but as with art they are getting better!

[Rob 3,152]

I think the real problems will be with debased silver issues, where the quality of the silver combined with the fact that many things appearing on ebay have been dug will lead to copies slipping through. The easiest things to pass on are going to be less than pristine pieces where give away identifiers could be rubbed down without suspicion. At the moment we are reasonably well armed in so far that the number of pieces appears to be manageable in any one field, and the very nature of copies is that they get churned out in volume, which helps in identifying the dodgy pieces because collectively we have a very good memory for past sales. I notice that there has only been one copy of the coin I wrote about in the May Circular since then, and that had the image taken so that the identifying mark was off the bottom. Dodgy copy sellers also put them on 1 day sales, with anonymous private bidder ids and they always seem to claim they don't know what they are selling. So any of these characteristics in the description of listing details should act as a warning bell.

The best indicator will always be multiple appearances of the same item. Flood the market and everyone would know of their existence, don't sell them and there isn't a problem. I think there are enough suspicious people to police the net (i.e.ebay), but a lot of novice collectors are going to get stung along the way when they try to recoup their "investment".

Tomgoodhart lists all the forgeries he encounters on the Forgery Network. It would pay people to take a regular look at this site, and a permanent link in a prominent place on this forum would help jog forgetful memories.

[coin watch 1]

Also with the big advances in digital photography/scanning, do you think that maybe a coin in the hand will eventually not be needed to copy it? Just another worrying thought with 3D images on the horizon!

[Rob 3,152]

slabbing services which guarantee the authenticity of a slabbed item, are going to become more and more popular.

How can they tell, do you think? What do they know that you lot don't?

Sadly, you can't rely on them. One of the gold pattern halfpennies I bought at Plymouth in 2008 with a large scratch/scuff on the cheek and subsequently sold resurfaced in last September's St.James's sale with the mark removed and now resides in an NGC PF64 ultra cameo slab instead of whatever code they give for damage or altered. Someone paid over US$30K for a tooled coin, which I can almost guarantee was done unknowingly. Having said that, when I posted the info on a US forum, the silence was deafening, so I guess they didn't care too much that it had slipped through and assume the guarantee of genuineness was more important. Shite, isn't it?

Edited July 21, 2011 by Rob

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Shite, isn't it?

It's a real issue for sure. Technology is the problem, things are possible which previously would have taken craftsmanship and talent, now anyone can do it.

Slabs are becoming a bit like Gilts/Bonds/Sovereign debt - they are a promise, a guarantee which is only as good as the issuer.

The minute one defaults......

[TomGoodheart 400]

There's a thread currently on CoinForgeryDiscussionList about a 1939 Canadian dollar made in the Lebanon which was slabbed by PCGS as genuine. Quality is improving because there's money to be made.

I myself was fooled by the coin Rob recently wrote about; I saw a replica on ebay and assumed it was his coin that he'd sold. Fortunately it was light so if I have bought it I'd likely have been suspicious. But many newcomers don't weigh their coins and if they buy from an apparently reputable dealer (and the ebay coin was good enough to fool the seller) they have no reason to think they have anything but a genuine coin. Then they sell it on and it starts to gain a touch of provenance, even though it's just amongst inexperienced collectors...

The trouble is, most coins don't have the sort of provenance that would reassure without a decent price tag to accompany them! You'd need very deep pockets (and miss out on some more recent discoveries and better condition examples) if you only ever bought coins that had been owned by reknown collectors.

Currently I feel fairly confident I would be able to spot most fake Charles I shillings. But I'm not ruling out the liklihood that sooner or later I'll get fooled.

[Rob 3,152]

There's a thread currently on CoinForgeryDiscussionList about a 1939 Canadian dollar made in the Lebanon which was slabbed by PCGS as genuine. Quality is improving because there's money to be made.

I myself was fooled by the coin Rob recently wrote about; I saw a replica on ebay and assumed it was his coin that he'd sold. Fortunately it was light so if I have bought it I'd likely have been suspicious. But many newcomers don't weigh their coins and if they buy from an apparently reputable dealer (and the ebay coin was good enough to fool the seller) they have no reason to think they have anything but a genuine coin. Then they sell it on and it starts to gain a touch of provenance, even though it's just amongst inexperienced collectors...

The trouble is, most coins don't have the sort of provenance that would reassure without a decent price tag to accompany them! You'd need very deep pockets (and miss out on some more recent discoveries and better condition examples) if you only ever bought coins that had been owned by reknown collectors.

Currently I feel fairly confident I would be able to spot most fake Charles I shillings. But I'm not ruling out the liklihood that sooner or later I'll get fooled.

A reasonable suggestion would be that a provenance might add say 0-50% to an unprovenanced example in comparable grade. But these coins typically turn up in proper auctions and not on places like eBay which means that you are more likely to be an experienced collector in the first place. I believe it is unquestionably money well spent and will always choose a provenanced coin over a comparable unprovenanced one. That is why it is also important to keep any tickets that may come with a coin. You might not know who wrote them now, but in the future they might be identified. Ebay on the whole is not a good source of provenanced coins - the number I have bought over the past 8-10 years off ebay is only a dozen at the most. Actually, make that two thinking about it.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Rob

[Peter 615]

slabbing services which guarantee the authenticity of a slabbed item, are going to become more and more popular.

How can they tell, do you think? What do they know that you lot don't?

Sadly, you can't rely on them. One of the gold pattern halfpennies I bought at Plymouth in 2008 with a large scratch/scuff on the cheek and subsequently sold resurfaced in last September's St.James's sale with the mark removed and now resides in an NGC PF64 ultra cameo slab instead of whatever code they give for damage or altered. Someone paid over US$30K for a tooled coin, which I can almost guarantee was done unknowingly. Having said that, when I posted the info on a US forum, the silence was deafening, so I guess they didn't care too much that it had slipped through and assume the guarantee of genuineness was more important. Shite, isn't it?

Rob

Who did you sell it to and for how much?

I'm horrified that this could happen with a £20k coin.

How have NGC taken the news?....something like this could cause serious damage to slabbing companies.

But hey a slabber isn't an expert in some of our specialised fields.

[Peter 615]

With hammered,dies can be produced to replicate the originals...1000 year old silver is dug up everyday.Trevor Ashmore produced some nice fakes.

What is stopping a nice little tick over of Edward 1 pennies? No one would suspect.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Peter

[coin watch 1]

With hammered,dies can be produced to replicate the originals...1000 year old silver is dug up everyday.Trevor Ashmore produced some nice fakes.

What is stopping a nice little tick over of Edward 1 pennies? No one would suspect.

That is my original point, how 'good' could they get. The die reproduction is a good point, just need to give the coin a good tone and "hey presto"

[Rob 3,152]

slabbing services which guarantee the authenticity of a slabbed item, are going to become more and more popular.

How can they tell, do you think? What do they know that you lot don't?

Sadly, you can't rely on them. One of the gold pattern halfpennies I bought at Plymouth in 2008 with a large scratch/scuff on the cheek and subsequently sold resurfaced in last September's St.James's sale with the mark removed and now resides in an NGC PF64 ultra cameo slab instead of whatever code they give for damage or altered. Someone paid over US$30K for a tooled coin, which I can almost guarantee was done unknowingly. Having said that, when I posted the info on a US forum, the silence was deafening, so I guess they didn't care too much that it had slipped through and assume the guarantee of genuineness was more important. Shite, isn't it?

Rob

Who did you sell it to and for how much?

I'm horrified that this could happen with a £20k coin.

How have NGC taken the news?....something like this could cause serious damage to slabbing companies.

But hey a slabber isn't an expert in some of our specialised fields.

I sold it to Steven Fenton at the Harrogate fair in March 2010 for a sum between what I paid for it and what it sold for in the Sept. sale where it resurfaced in the slab. It had a 5% import surcharge for EU bidders, so had obviously been exported outside the EU in the interim. I assume that it went across the pond. The hammer price was £17K (or about £20K with the premium) and was sold to an American dealer, so it is reasonable to assume it is now Stateside again. I did a thread on the PCGS forum called slab images as I was trying to get an NGC archived image to see what they had and compare it with the Plymouth sale CD images together with my own and the Mitchell-David and other properties patterns and proofs. NGC may or may not know about it as this would require them to monitor the PCGS forum. Clearly they aren't going to wave a big flag saying we can't tell a tooled coin when we see one. This incidentally goes full circle back to the question of provenance. A unique gold coin will always be imaged in modern times, so modifying it to remove blemishes is crass because someone is going to point it out. Having owned the coin for a couple years, I know I'm not wrong and so I raised the issue. For a forum filled with people extolling the virtues and benefits of slabbing, the minimal response was very surprising.

[azda 979]

It would pay people to take a regular look at this site, and a permanent link in a prominent place on this forum would help jog forgetful memories.

[Peter 615]

slabbing services which guarantee the authenticity of a slabbed item, are going to become more and more popular.

How can they tell, do you think? What do they know that you lot don't?

Sadly, you can't rely on them. One of the gold pattern halfpennies I bought at Plymouth in 2008 with a large scratch/scuff on the cheek and subsequently sold resurfaced in last September's St.James's sale with the mark removed and now resides in an NGC PF64 ultra cameo slab instead of whatever code they give for damage or altered. Someone paid over US$30K for a tooled coin, which I can almost guarantee was done unknowingly. Having said that, when I posted the info on a US forum, the silence was deafening, so I guess they didn't care too much that it had slipped through and assume the guarantee of genuineness was more important. Shite, isn't it?

Rob

Who did you sell it to and for how much?

I'm horrified that this could happen with a £20k coin.

How have NGC taken the news?....something like this could cause serious damage to slabbing companies.

But hey a slabber isn't an expert in some of our specialised fields.

I sold it to Steven Fenton at the Harrogate fair in March 2010 for a sum between what I paid for it and what it sold for in the Sept. sale where it resurfaced in the slab. It had a 5% import surcharge for EU bidders, so had obviously been exported outside the EU in the interim. I assume that it went across the pond. The hammer price was £17K (or about £20K with the premium) and was sold to an American dealer, so it is reasonable to assume it is now Stateside again. I did a thread on the PCGS forum called slab images as I was trying to get an NGC archived image to see what they had and compare it with the Plymouth sale CD images together with my own and the Mitchell-David and other properties patterns and proofs. NGC may or may not know about it as this would require them to monitor the PCGS forum. Clearly they aren't going to wave a big flag saying we can't tell a tooled coin when we see one. This incidentally goes full circle back to the question of provenance. A unique gold coin will always be imaged in modern times, so modifying it to remove blemishes is crass because someone is going to point it out. Having owned the coin for a couple years, I know I'm not wrong and so I raised the issue. For a forum filled with people extolling the virtues and benefits of slabbing, the minimal response was very surprising.

So...if you hadn't owned the coin could you tell if it had been tooled?

Would a gold coin with a blemish assist with its authenticity?

Several years ago I was looking to invest in some hammered gold...alas I didn't.I was warned by CC.

I would have bought VF nicely struck examples.

[Rob 3,152]

slabbing services which guarantee the authenticity of a slabbed item, are going to become more and more popular.

How can they tell, do you think? What do they know that you lot don't?

Sadly, you can't rely on them. One of the gold pattern halfpennies I bought at Plymouth in 2008 with a large scratch/scuff on the cheek and subsequently sold resurfaced in last September's St.James's sale with the mark removed and now resides in an NGC PF64 ultra cameo slab instead of whatever code they give for damage or altered. Someone paid over US$30K for a tooled coin, which I can almost guarantee was done unknowingly. Having said that, when I posted the info on a US forum, the silence was deafening, so I guess they didn't care too much that it had slipped through and assume the guarantee of genuineness was more important. Shite, isn't it?

Rob

Who did you sell it to and for how much?

I'm horrified that this could happen with a £20k coin.

How have NGC taken the news?....something like this could cause serious damage to slabbing companies.

But hey a slabber isn't an expert in some of our specialised fields.

I sold it to Steven Fenton at the Harrogate fair in March 2010 for a sum between what I paid for it and what it sold for in the Sept. sale where it resurfaced in the slab. It had a 5% import surcharge for EU bidders, so had obviously been exported outside the EU in the interim. I assume that it went across the pond. The hammer price was £17K (or about £20K with the premium) and was sold to an American dealer, so it is reasonable to assume it is now Stateside again. I did a thread on the PCGS forum called slab images as I was trying to get an NGC archived image to see what they had and compare it with the Plymouth sale CD images together with my own and the Mitchell-David and other properties patterns and proofs. NGC may or may not know about it as this would require them to monitor the PCGS forum. Clearly they aren't going to wave a big flag saying we can't tell a tooled coin when we see one. This incidentally goes full circle back to the question of provenance. A unique gold coin will always be imaged in modern times, so modifying it to remove blemishes is crass because someone is going to point it out. Having owned the coin for a couple years, I know I'm not wrong and so I raised the issue. For a forum filled with people extolling the virtues and benefits of slabbing, the minimal response was very surprising.

So...if you hadn't owned the coin could you tell if it had been tooled?

Would a gold coin with a blemish assist with its authenticity?

Several years ago I was looking to invest in some hammered gold...alas I didn't.I was warned by CC.

I would have bought VF nicely struck examples.

Yes, but only as a consequence of my recording sales data for rare and/or high grade examples because I would have compared it with the images from the Plymouth sale. Authenticity is greatly assisted by being able to tie a coin to a previous image. Provenances can be confirmed by having known buyers of specific lots even if the coin isn't illustrated, but a picture tells a thousand words.

Here are a few images. sorry for many posts but I can't put them in the same frame.

Plymouth sale CD image obverse.

Reverse

[Rob 3,152]

My scan

[Rob 3,152]

St. James's Catalogue obv.

Catalogue rev.

Anyone care to disagree with me?

[Nick 329]

It is the same coin without doubt. I would never have spotted anything wrong with it, even if you told me where to look.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Rob, the implication is that Steve had the coin improved before slabbing and putting through his own auction. Or do PCGS improve coins now before they slab them?

With all of the minor marks/nicks and hairlines surely that should have gone through as an impaired proof on their system anyway????

On the subject of Forgeries I was stung through my own stupid fault recently. I saw and bought 12 Chinese/Japanese 50 Cent sized coins in auction. I was in a rush and didn't do my usual checks as they all looked right. As soon as I stuck the magnet on them the horrible truth was revealed. They are obviously old Chinese forgeries as most of the stuff I have had recently is non ferrous. The auctioneer was good enough to cancel the transaction but it could have been a very expensive lesson....

[Rob 3,152]

Rob, the implication is that Steve had the coin improved before slabbing and putting through his own auction. Or do PCGS improve coins now before they slab them?

With all of the minor marks/nicks and hairlines surely that should have gone through as an impaired proof on their system anyway????

On the subject of Forgeries I was stung through my own stupid fault recently. I saw and bought 12 Chinese/Japanese 50 Cent sized coins in auction. I was in a rush and didn't do my usual checks as they all looked right. As soon as I stuck the magnet on them the horrible truth was revealed. They are obviously old Chinese forgeries as most of the stuff I have had recently is non ferrous. The auctioneer was good enough to cancel the transaction but it could have been a very expensive lesson....

No it doesn't imply that Stephen Fenton did, or had the work done - that is just one possibility and would require him to be registered outside the EU for tax purposes if the first sentence was to apply. Having a shop in London is incompatible with that tax status as he would fall foul of the 90 day rule. The coin was in the sale with 5% import VAT which means the vendor was resident for tax purposes outside the EU. Odds on it was consigned by someone from the US as it was slabbed by a US company, but that doesn't mean impropriety can be assigned to SF or any other named individual as they could equally have been Australian, Canadian or Japanese for example. All three countries have a healthy collecting base for British material, but the limited period available to get the work done between end of March 2010 and when the catalogue was produced - say July, means there was little opportunity to trade the coin by the time it had been "improved" and slabbed and consigned.

PCGS don't "improve" coins, but there are companies that do using lasers. Hus put a link up to some examples on the PCGS forum of coins that had been improved to make them unrecognisable from their original state.

The scuff would have failed a grade test, but small hairlines are allowed. That is why it would be done in the first place. A Genuine label on a slab will not attract the same kudos (or dollars) as a Proof 64 ultra cameo label. It is done simply for money, but the way in which it gets there leaves a big question mark hanging over it, the slabbing company and the consignor assuming he/she and the "improver" are one and the same person.

Like Azda, I don't like myself or other people being taken for a ride.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Rob

[Peter 615]

Fascinating Rob and without doubt the same coin.What a beauty.

This is almost "what you don't know won't hurt you"

If the restoration is professionally done,not evident and indeed enhances the coin is this so bad.

This is how the furniture/art boys operate.

[Rob 3,152]

Fascinating Rob and without doubt the same coin.What a beauty.

This is almost "what you don't know won't hurt you"

If the restoration is professionally done,not evident and indeed enhances the coin is this so bad.

This is how the furniture/art boys operate.

Herein lies the moral dilemma. If you are going to set up a business that purports to be a standard bearer for genuineness and general fidelity, then it is incompatible to accept any coin for slabbing that has been modified or otherwise "improved". I'm not criticising the workmanship, but if you are going to have rules, then they have to be uniformly applied. You can't have a system that everyone swears by based on a confidence that a coin is untampered with only to throw out the rule book because something looks nice. Otherwise, what is the problem with someone sneaking modern counterfeits past the graders having removed the identifying features? After all, the metal could be right, the design could be right, the method of manufacture could be right and with a bit of judicious modification, they could all be made to look different. People would complain if this happened and was discovered. You can't have selective application of any set of rules if the system's integrity depends on those rules. Coins routinely get rejected by the TPGs for environmental damage, or cleaning that nobody else can see; I can't see how this can be considered acceptable if their standards are to have any credibility.

[Peter 615]

Fascinating Rob and without doubt the same coin.What a beauty.

This is almost "what you don't know won't hurt you"

If the restoration is professionally done,not evident and indeed enhances the coin is this so bad.

This is how the furniture/art boys operate.

Herein lies the moral dilemma. If you are going to set up a business that purports to be a standard bearer for genuineness and general fidelity, then it is incompatible to accept any coin for slabbing that has been modified or otherwise "improved". I'm not criticising the workmanship, but if you are going to have rules, then they have to be uniformly applied. You can't have a system that everyone swears by based on a confidence that a coin is untampered with only to throw out the rule book because something looks nice. Otherwise, what is the problem with someone sneaking modern counterfeits past the graders having removed the identifying features? After all, the metal could be right, the design could be right, the method of manufacture could be right and with a bit of judicious modification, they could all be made to look different. People would complain if this happened and was discovered. You can't have selective application of any set of rules if the system's integrity depends on those rules. Coins routinely get rejected by the TPGs for environmental damage, or cleaning that nobody else can see; I can't see how this can be considered acceptable if their standards are to have any credibility.

I have an issue with a certain (highly regarded and a reputation for strictness on grade)TPG who was selling a "best available" G1 farthing which clearly had verdigris.I pointed this out and was ignored.

They then bought from their auction a bun Victorian farthing which was a beauty but had an edge knock.

Next thing its in a slab with the price doubled and the edge knock conveniently disguised by the slab.

Their quality control needs addressing to prevent being caught out.

Also the statement "best available" can't be backed up and is a joke.It adds £ to the price and certainly dupes a few

punters.