2 For attribution

[azda 979]

Ok, apologies in advance for the size Peckris, but require it for the correct attribution. Both Florins are the same year 1877, 1 had stop after date, one doesn't. As far as i can see, there's no WW or die numbers on either, so can anyone help with correct ESC/SPINK numbers please.

Edit: die 68 on the 1st one

Edited July 23, 2011 by azda

[Rob 3,152]

First one. die 68, 42 arcs. S3895, ESC 848, D764.

Second one. Die 9 or 19?, 48 arcs. Can't see a WW but you had better look again, so looks like S3894 as opposed to S3893. ESC -, D -.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Rob

[azda 979]

First one. die 68, 42 arcs. S3895, ESC 848, D764.

Second one. Die 9 or 19?, 48 arcs. Can't see a WW but you had better look again, so looks like S3894 as opposed to S3893. ESC -, D -.

Took a look through the scope, looks like die 19 as you say, but definately no WW

[Peckris 579]

The first one has 41 trefoils - that makes it Davies 764

The second one - 48 trefoils and no stop after date, which makes it Davies 762

[Rob 3,152]

The first one has 41 trefoils - that makes it Davies 764

The second one - 48 trefoils and no stop after date, which makes it Davies 762

The second one with no WW isn't listed in Davies or ESC, hence the S3894 attribution. Stop after date is mentioned only.

[azda 979]

Correct, ESC has 3 listed 846...... B3 WW 48 arcs

847 B4 No WW 48 arcs stop after date

848 B5 No WW42 arcs stop after date

Mine 48 arcs No WW.... NO STOP AFTER DATE..........UNLISTED

[Peckris 579]

Correct, ESC has 3 listed 846...... B3 WW 48 arcs

847 B4 No WW 48 arcs stop after date

848 B5 No WW42 arcs stop after date

Mine 48 arcs No WW.... NO STOP AFTER DATE..........UNLISTED

You'd have to be 100% sure about the "No WW" for that to be unlisted.

[azda 979]

Had the scope on it Peck and can't see any WW

[azda 979]

Scoped picture

[azda 979]

Here is the coin in the very first post, the 1st picture and that bust coutout. The bust on this is higher than the rarer one, hence the no WW

[Peckris 579]

Scoped picture

Ah, but it does have the bust cutout where the initials would be. Is the WW incuse or raised on Gothic florins? It could be a filled or worn die, rather than a distinct and unknown variety.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Peckris

[azda 979]

Ok a 60x scoped picture from where the last i in the date is and to the left of that where the small recess is

[Nick 329]

Scoped picture

Here is a picture of an 1877 Davies 762 florin. On your example, the bottom edge of Victoria's dress is not very well defined and there is almost no discernible gap between the dress and the arc and trefoil border. My guess is that the WW has become obscured by the encroaching dress line.

[azda 979]

Scoped picture

Here is a picture of an 1877 Davies 762 florin. On your example, the bottom edge of Victoria's dress is not very well defined and there is almost no discernible gap between the dress and the arc and trefoil border. My guess is that the WW has become obscured by the encroaching dress line.

The difference between mine Nick and the picture you've uploaded is that Victorias bust is lower and nearer the rim, which is quite evident from the 2 pictures. I uploaded the both bust pictures of both florins and the distance between bust and rim is quite evident

[azda 979]

Scoped picture

Here is a picture of an 1877 Davies 762 florin. On your example, the bottom edge of Victoria's dress is not very well defined and there is almost no discernible gap between the dress and the arc and trefoil border. My guess is that the WW has become obscured by the encroaching dress line.

Is it possible to post the full picture Nick so we can see the cross on Viccies crown. In my very 1st 2 pictures you can quite clearly see the difference between the 2 rims to the trefoils, pic 1 has a gap whereas pic 2 has'nt

Edited July 24, 2011 by azda

[Nick 329]

Scoped picture

Here is a picture of an 1877 Davies 762 florin. On your example, the bottom edge of Victoria's dress is not very well defined and there is almost no discernible gap between the dress and the arc and trefoil border. My guess is that the WW has become obscured by the encroaching dress line.

Is it possible to post the full picture Nick so we can see the cross on Viccies crown. In my very 1st 2 pictures you can quite clearly see the difference between the 2 rims to the trefoils, pic 1 has a gap whereas pic 2 has'nt

Sure. Here it is.

[azda 979]

Scoped picture

Here is a picture of an 1877 Davies 762 florin. On your example, the bottom edge of Victoria's dress is not very well defined and there is almost no discernible gap between the dress and the arc and trefoil border. My guess is that the WW has become obscured by the encroaching dress line.

Is it possible to post the full picture Nick so we can see the cross on Viccies crown. In my very 1st 2 pictures you can quite clearly see the difference between the 2 rims to the trefoils, pic 1 has a gap whereas pic 2 has'nt

Sure. Here it is.

Ok from that picture i can see the full cross on the crown but not in my picture. Viccies bust is notably lower in mine whereas not in yours

[Peckris 579]

Scoped picture

Here is a picture of an 1877 Davies 762 florin. On your example, the bottom edge of Victoria's dress is not very well defined and there is almost no discernible gap between the dress and the arc and trefoil border. My guess is that the WW has become obscured by the encroaching dress line.

Is it possible to post the full picture Nick so we can see the cross on Viccies crown. In my very 1st 2 pictures you can quite clearly see the difference between the 2 rims to the trefoils, pic 1 has a gap whereas pic 2 has'nt

Sure. Here it is.

Ok from that picture i can see the full cross on the crown but not in my picture. Viccies bust is notably lower in mine whereas not in yours

It's hazy and blurred - very difficult to tell where the bottom edge is.

[azda 979]

Peck, from Nicks picture and my large one, its easily seen that its different, the cross on the crown is'nt full and Viccies bust is definately lower than Nicks picture, oh and still No WW even at 60x magnification

[Rob 3,152]

Hocking isn't very helpful as it doesn't list any florin matrix, die or anything else for this date, so unless they have something in their boxes that isn't listed, there is no RM museum option to corroborate the no WW.

[just.me 23]

Hi Azda, could you check the die number again, it looks like it is die 39, which was used on an obverse 3 with a WW which would be D762. The bottom of the bust was weakly struck on the die 39s, and yours does looks weaker than the ones I've seen before.

If it is die 39 it must be obverse 3, Davies 762 with a filled/weak WW.

[azda 979]

Hi Azda, could you check the die number again, it looks like it is die 39, which was used on an obverse 3 with a WW which would be D762. The bottom of the bust was weakly struck on the die 39s, and yours does looks weaker than the ones I've seen before.

If it is die 39 it must be obverse 3, Davies 762 with a filled/weak WW.

The guy i bought it from actually wrote a ticket, he has wrote die 8, but i'll scope it when i get back from my massage

[azda 979]

Ok here's the die number, not great obviously but does'nt look like a 3 in there. Also scoped the rim a little more with the die number because the WW would be in that region, but again, no sign of WW and my guess would be because the bust of Victoria is more elongated, hence the cross on the crown is'nt full and the bust of victoria is so near to the rim.Nicks uploaded picture of a D762 is obviously different from the one i have uploaded as the WW is evident, even if this was worn there would be some hint of the WW.

Also the cross and bust is evidently different on both coins.Nicks picture of D762 has also only die number 3 which would then rule out the theory of a certain die number for D762

Just found my 2009 Spink book and it also says "Extremely rare" as does 2010 and 2011 which would suggest there isn't many of this type around. Anyone have earlier Spink editions? Trying to find if there has been any prices in the last 10 years.

Edited July 25, 2011 by azda

[just.me 23]

Ok here's the die number, not great obviously but does'nt look like a 3 in there. Also scoped the rim a little more with the die number because the WW would be in that region, but again, no sign of WW and my guess would be because the bust of Victoria is more elongated, hence the cross on the crown is'nt full and the bust of victoria is so near to the rim.Nicks uploaded picture of a D762 is obviously different from the one i have uploaded as the WW is evident, even if this was worn there would be some hint of the WW.

Also the cross and bust is evidently different on both coins.Nicks picture of D762 has also only die number 3 which would then rule out the theory of a certain die number for D762

Just found my 2009 Spink book and it also says "Extremely rare" as does 2010 and 2011 which would suggest there isn't many of this type around. Anyone have earlier Spink editions? Trying to find if there has been any prices in the last 10 years.

Hi Dave, much bettrer close up. I am 99% sure that is a die 39. the die numbers were all hand punched and it is identical to other 39s I've seen. the trefoil to the right of the 9 is also misshaped which is on other 39s too. the style of the 3 is flat topped and is very often filled at the top.

[azda 979]

Ok here's the die number, not great obviously but does'nt look like a 3 in there. Also scoped the rim a little more with the die number because the WW would be in that region, but again, no sign of WW and my guess would be because the bust of Victoria is more elongated, hence the cross on the crown is'nt full and the bust of victoria is so near to the rim.Nicks uploaded picture of a D762 is obviously different from the one i have uploaded as the WW is evident, even if this was worn there would be some hint of the WW.

Also the cross and bust is evidently different on both coins.Nicks picture of D762 has also only die number 3 which would then rule out the theory of a certain die number for D762

Just found my 2009 Spink book and it also says "Extremely rare" as does 2010 and 2011 which would suggest there isn't many of this type around. Anyone have earlier Spink editions? Trying to find if there has been any prices in the last 10 years.

Hi Dave, much bettrer close up. I am 99% sure that is a die 39. the die numbers were all hand punched and it is identical to other 39s I've seen. the trefoil to the right of the 9 is also misshaped which is on other 39s too. the style of the 3 is flat topped and is very often filled at the top.

But still no WW