a use for '67 pennies

[ski 1]

a nice little item for penny and farthing collectors.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Miniature-Brass-Penny-Farthing-Cycle-/230656984443?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item35b43a457b

[Peckris 579]

a nice little item for penny and farthing collectors.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Miniature-Brass-Penny-Farthing-Cycle-/230656984443?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item35b43a457b

Aww, no bids. That little item deserved some interest

[Peter 615]

a nice little item for penny and farthing collectors.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Miniature-Brass-Penny-Farthing-Cycle-/230656984443?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item35b43a457b

Aww, no bids. That little item deserved some interest

If that had been a 1915 1/4d close TT I would of gone around the sellers with a big wet fish.

[bilnic 0]

The coins appear to have been drilled. Whether doing this is illegal is questionable. I'm not sure how this will copy, but I'll try - the source is Coinage Act 1971 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/24

10Restrictions on melting or breaking of metal coins..

(1)No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin which is for the time being current in the United Kingdom or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so.

Is drilling a hole "breaking up"? I'm sure that, working to the spirit of the law, it is, but what about the letter of the law?

Do we have any legal experts here? I would love to see a definate reply, but thoughts from members should be interesting.

Bill.

[Peckris 579]

The coins appear to have been drilled. Whether doing this is illegal is questionable. I'm not sure how this will copy, but I'll try - the source is Coinage Act 1971 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/24

10Restrictions on melting or breaking of metal coins..

(1)No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin which is for the time being current in the United Kingdom or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so.

Is drilling a hole "breaking up"? I'm sure that, working to the spirit of the law, it is, but what about the letter of the law?

Do we have any legal experts here? I would love to see a definate reply, but thoughts from members should be interesting.

Bill.

I'd say "no". The Act was specifically to prevent the mass export of coins to recover metal values. Drilling holes is not really an issue, especially with demonetised issues.

[ski 1]

definetly no.....the answer is in your own post.

"No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin which is for the time being current in the United Kingdom or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so."

the old penny ceased to be current after the 16th of May 1969 by being demonitized on Aug 31st 1971

[ski 1]

you may have a problem if someone reports you for drilling a hole in a double florin.....or any other coin which is still legal tender, as peckris states, this is to prevent exporting of coins that are current legal tender for metal values. demonitized coins are legally no longer coins just slabs of metal that were previously coins.

we are in fact mostly slabs of metal collectors............as the penny brigade regularly demonstrate here

[ski 1]

incidentally...........

theres a guy who regularly sells on ebay current coins that he gold plates....this may fall foul of any statute. he could find himself in hot water under current acts.

[bilnic 0]

As I read it, the penny, which ceased to be legal tender after 16th May 1969 is therefore covered by the Act.

... or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so.

I know that, as collectors, we must all detest this desecration of coins, and I think that if the wording had been "cut up" rather than "break up", the effect might have been different.

Bill.

[ski 1]

or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so.

get it?????

[Peckris 579]

As I read it, the penny, which ceased to be legal tender after 16th May 1969 is therefore covered by the Act.

... or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so.

I know that, as collectors, we must all detest this desecration of coins, and I think that if the wording had been "cut up" rather than "break up", the effect might have been different.

Bill.

Yes, I agree Bill. That wording seems to include all predecimal coins that were currency after the demonetisation of the farthing in the early 60s - therefore the farthing is not a problem but the penny potentially is. But I think drilling a hole doesn't actually contravene the Act.

[ski 1]

there were 2 decimal currency acts...1967 and a later act of 1969.

due to decimalisation taking place, it was thought large numbers of coins would be lost to circulation by melting down for bullion etc, so the 1969 decimal act was passed to help prevent this along with details of conversion for banking etc.

Decimal Currency Act 1969

1969 CHAPTER 19

An Act to make further provision in connection with the introduction of a decimal currency, and to impose restrictions on the melting or breaking of metal coins.

there was set in this act of 1969, a date on which this act would be completed and the new act of 1971 would commence.

if you now click open The coinage act of 1971, it reads thus:-

Coinage Act 1971

1971 CHAPTER 24

An Act to consolidate, so far as they are part of the law of the United Kingdom, the Coinage Acts 1870 to 1946 and certain other enactments relating to coinage, with amendments to give effect to recommendations of the Law Commission and the Scottish Law Commission.

underneath this text is a box titled commencement information, click on the hyperlink.

item 3 reads:- 3. The transitional period, as defined in section 16(1) of the Decimal Currency Act 1969, shall end with 31st August 1971. ie the 1971 act takes over.

the explanatory note reads ;- EXPLANATORY NOTE

This Order brings to an end on 31st August 1971 the transitional period under the Decimal Currency Act 1969. After the end of the transitional period all payments have to be made in the new currency, and the threepence and penny of the old currency cease to be legal tender.

Ok now click youre browsers back button to get back to the 1971 act.

Section 2 item 3 reads:- [F4(3)In this section “coins†means coins made by the Mint in accordance with this Act and not called in by proclamation under section 3 of this Act.]... please read that again...THIS ACT.

The penny and threeepence were not covered by the act of 1971 as on the date the act commenced they were no longer legal tender and were not deemed as coins under section 2 of the 1971 act. they ceased to be coins when the decimal act of 1969 expired on aug 31st 1971.

section 2 item 3 has in fact been updated with the currency act of 1983 and maybe even newer legislation. the currency act lists the coins that are current and to which the act of 1971 applies.

So TO RECAP

the need here in the 1971 act was to preserve numbers of coins in circulation as of 31 aug 1971 that would go beyond the transitional period ie the shilling and florin as they were still classed as coins under the 1971 act.

the threepence and penny are not covered by this act, they were removed from being legal tender with the commencement of this act and are no longer classed as coins under the 1971 act and were no longer legal tender.

you can drill em if you like...........ski

[ski 1]

it would be usefull to actually look at coins this act would have affected by being used after the aug31 1971 deadline that were subsequently demonitized after 16th may 1969.

predecimal coins the florin, the shilling, the tanner were used beyond aug 31 1971

decimal coins 5p and 10p and 50p(the old large coins). the new 1/2 pence tiddler.

these have all since been withdrawn after the 16th may 1969............but....

that doesnt mean that under section 10 of the 1971 act you need permission to melt them because later currency acts such as the currency act of 1983 may well have removed them from the list of section 3 1971 act. but you would be well advised to check first.............

..................ski

[Peckris 579]

Ski, I think you're complicating things. The original wording quoted above from the 1971 Act...

(1)No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin which is for the time being current in the United Kingdom or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so.

...covers all current coins, plus any denominations that were demonetised after 16th May 1969. Only the farthing is not caught by that.

[ski 1]

Ski, I think you're complicating things. The original wording quoted above from the 1971 Act...

(1)No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin which is for the time being current in the United Kingdom or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so.

...covers all current coins, plus any denominations that were demonetised after 16th May 1969. Only the farthing is not caught by tha

not at all. the point of my posts is that the penny and threepenny bit were not subject to this act,simple as that, as you mentioned also the farthing and also the half crown and halfpenny. the act was not retrospective, but was and still is in place to protect the current legal tender....the penny under this act was not current and was not legal tender and fell outside of section 3 of what constituted as of 31 aug 1971 a legally tendered coin.

even now, coins that would have fallen within the scope of the act as of 31 aug 1971, may not be subject to item 10 with referance to "has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so", because of subsequent acts or act ammendements.

ski.

[bilnic 0]

This is proving interesting. Now we know how members of the legal profession make their money!

Here are links to the various Acts:

Decimal Currency Act 1969 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1969/19

Coinage Act 1971 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/24

Currency Act 1983 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/9

Bill.

[Peckris 579]

Ski, I think you're complicating things. The original wording quoted above from the 1971 Act...

(1)No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin which is for the time being current in the United Kingdom or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so.

...covers all current coins, plus any denominations that were demonetised after 16th May 1969. Only the farthing is not caught by tha

not at all. the point of my posts is that the penny and threepenny bit were not subject to this act,simple as that, as you mentioned also the farthing and also the half crown and halfpenny. the act was not retrospective, but was and still is in place to protect the current legal tender....the penny under this act was not current and was not legal tender and fell outside of section 3 of what constituted as of 31 aug 1971 a legally tendered coin.

even now, coins that would have fallen within the scope of the act as of 31 aug 1971, may not be subject to item 10 with referance to "has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so", because of subsequent acts or act ammendements.

ski.

You've misunderstood! The penny, threepenny bit, halfcrown and halfpenny WERE subject to the Act - read the exact wording again, and you'll see it's so. All those were demonetised AFTER 16th May 1969. Only the farthing wasn't.

[ski 1]

not at all..........maybe you should try reading it all again, then maybe you will understand.....it really isnt that difficult.

[Sylvester 15]

This no doubt means that converting sovereigns into jewelry is actually illegal. As all sovereigns dated 1838 or later (that are the minimum circulation weight or above) are deemed legal tender and thus covered by the said acts.

Where does all this leave forgotten denominations such as the double florin, which as far as I recall were never demonetised?

[bilnic 0]

There need be no doubt about when British £sd was demonetised.

From about a week ago, see: http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4637&view=findpost&p=54664

Bill.

[ski 1]

This no doubt means that converting sovereigns into jewelry is actually illegal. As all sovereigns dated 1838 or later (that are the minimum circulation weight or above) are deemed legal tender and thus covered by the said acts.

Where does all this leave forgotten denominations such as the double florin, which as far as I recall were never demonetised?

this is very close to the bit that is causing confusion here. and causing mr peckris a problem i think.

when a line is drawn in the sand with the passing of a new act, it does just that, for example an act passed stating that no new motorbike is allowed to have a front number plate mounted on the front mudguard, doesnt mean that all motorbikes built before the passing of the act have to remove their front number plate. indeed many vintage veteran motorcycles retain their front number plates and can be seen around the country on balmy summer sundays (summer sunday was mid june this year )

and so with the commencement of this act (31-8-1971) a line was drawn in the sand, and this act was put into place to protect the legal tender, that was legal tender on this day and thereafter.

so what is that is so difficult to understand about section 10 of this act. well firstly you have to understand this act only affects those coins that were legal tender on the 31-8-1971. the act itself states quite clearly that this does not include the threepenny bit and penny as of this date and so the commencement of the act were no longer legal tender. its legal tender that this act wishes to preserve remember.

before we move on to section 10 of the act, we can look at what coins were legal tender on the commencement date, 10p 5p 1p florin shilling and sixpence to name a few. indeed there were more that were legal tender, but before we discuss those, lets make a few observations. these observations are to try and help understand section 10. but remember now section 10 of the act only applies to those coins that were legal tender on that date...not the penny etc.

1/- in the uk, for a coin to be currency or be part of the uk currency system, it has to be legal tender.

2/- not all coins produced in the uk which are legal tender,are in fact part of the currency system, but they are still legal tender.

3/- if coins were legal tender as of 31-8-1969 they are covered by this act.

4/- if coins were legal tender as of 31-8-1969 but were not currency coins, they are still covered by this act.

5/- all coins not legal tender on the 31-8-1971 are not covered by this act.

so good so far, lets move onto section 10 of the act of 1971, just remember now, this act covers coins that were legal tender on this day and there after.

(1)No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin which is for the time being current in the United Kingdom or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so.

current = legal term for currency as well as being current. remember now, you can have legal tender that is not part of your currency system or, is not current to put it legally.............please read that again mr peckris.

okay bearing in mind this statement is made with referance to those coins that are legal tender as of the 31-8-1971 and of course included in this act. (also specifically not included, the penny and threpeny bit).

what coins could possibly have been legal tender and so covered by this act on the 31-8-1971, and under section 10 of this act being current at 16th may 1969?...............step forward once more the 5p 10p florin shilling etc

now the big question......

what coins could possibly have been legal tender and so covered by this act on the 31-8-1971 (not the penny remember) but had after the 16th may 1969 ceased to be so (current)........step forward the sovereign, the half sovereign, the quarter sovereign, maundy money, just about every commemorative issue that has been produced since this date........i may stand corrected, but im of the opinion that proofs also fall into this category. they were, and are still all legal tender, but not current.

31-8-1969......the humble penny was not legal tender, was not covered by this act.

so does the 1971 act make the conversion of sovereigns into jewellry illegal?,

the sovereign under this act was legal tender, even if it wasnt current (=currency). so is very definetly covered by this act.........so my legal eagle adviser observes (conveniently a sovereign collector)..........

if you melt a sovereign down or cut it up to make into an item of jewelery (without consent), you are in breach of this act, ...........if you have consent....youre ok.

if you mount the sovereign in a ring or pendant type mount where the coins original weight or purity are not affected, and the coin can be removed once more as legal tender..........youre okay.

the double florin is still legal tender, it cannot be melted down or broken up without permission.

at the time of writting this act, the double florin was legal tender but not current (ie currency),

however, my legal eagle sovereign collector observes that not only is it now legal tender but thinks (hes going to get back to me with a definitive answer asap) that with the introduction of the 20p may also now be current. as soon as hes clarified that point, i will post.

ski.

[argentumandcoins 70]

There's just one slight snag with all of the above..........who do you think is ever going to police or enforce the legislation?

I suspect it was put in place to stop the currency of the realm being decimated if the metal price rose significantly above the face value of the coin in question and only then would it be enacted against major players who attempted to release their equity.

It's just the same sort of thing as putting a stamp on an envelope upside down isn't it (I think there is something in statute about that being treasonable but I may be wrong)? A point in Law that isn't worth the parchment it was printed on.

[ski 1]

There's just one slight snag with all of the above..........who do you think is ever going to police or enforce the legislation?

I suspect it was put in place to stop the currency of the realm being decimated if the metal price rose significantly above the face value of the coin in question and only then would it be enacted against major players who attempted to release their equity.

It's just the same sort of thing as putting a stamp on an envelope upside down isn't it (I think there is something in statute about that being treasonable but I may be wrong)? A point in Law that isn't worth the parchment it was printed on.

nail absolutely hit on the head with 1 swift blow.

its not going to policed, probably not on a small scale anyway. im of the opinion as you seem to be that its there to be used against the big players. but it is there not just for coins, also notes and ingots, and all other devices that are legal tender. as coin collectors/dealers we maybe look at legal tender from a coin point of view.

but its on the books if it were ever needed to be used.....

if it were not there, and large scale counterfeiting or melting down took place, you dont have the legal ability to deal with those responsible..........for a single breach of the act, i think i read that the current fixed fee was £500.

cant see that putting of organised crime.

[Peckris 579]

this is very close to the bit that is causing confusion here. and causing mr peckris a problem i think.

when a line is drawn in the sand with the passing of a new act, it does just that, for example an act passed stating that no new motorbike is allowed to have a front number plate mounted on the front mudguard, doesnt mean that all motorbikes built before the passing of the act have to remove their front number plate. indeed many vintage veteran motorcycles retain their front number plates and can be seen around the country on balmy summer sundays (summer sunday was mid june this year )

and so with the commencement of this act (31-8-1971) a line was drawn in the sand, and this act was put into place to protect the legal tender, that was legal tender on this day and thereafter.

so what is that is so difficult to understand about section 10 of this act. well firstly you have to understand this act only affects those coins that were legal tender on the 31-8-1971. the act itself states quite clearly that this does not include the threepenny bit and penny as of this date and so the commencement of the act were no longer legal tender. its legal tender that this act wishes to preserve remember.

before we move on to section 10 of the act, we can look at what coins were legal tender on the commencement date, 10p 5p 1p florin shilling and sixpence to name a few. indeed there were more that were legal tender, but before we discuss those, lets make a few observations. these observations are to try and help understand section 10. but remember now section 10 of the act only applies to those coins that were legal tender on that date...not the penny etc.

1/- in the uk, for a coin to be currency or be part of the uk currency system, it has to be legal tender.

2/- not all coins produced in the uk which are legal tender,are in fact part of the currency system, but they are still legal tender.

3/- if coins were legal tender as of 31-8-1969 they are covered by this act.

4/- if coins were legal tender as of 31-8-1969 but were not currency coins, they are still covered by this act.

5/- all coins not legal tender on the 31-8-1971 are not covered by this act.

so good so far, lets move onto section 10 of the act of 1971, just remember now, this act covers coins that were legal tender on this day and there after.

(1)No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin which is for the time being current in the United Kingdom or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so.

current = legal term for currency as well as being current. remember now, you can have legal tender that is not part of your currency system or, is not current to put it legally.............please read that again mr peckris.

okay bearing in mind this statement is made with referance to those coins that are legal tender as of the 31-8-1971 and of course included in this act. (also specifically not included, the penny and threpeny bit).

what coins could possibly have been legal tender and so covered by this act on the 31-8-1971, and under section 10 of this act being current at 16th may 1969?...............step forward once more the 5p 10p florin shilling etc

now the big question......

what coins could possibly have been legal tender and so covered by this act on the 31-8-1971 (not the penny remember) but had after the 16th may 1969 ceased to be so (current)........step forward the sovereign, the half sovereign, the quarter sovereign, maundy money, just about every commemorative issue that has been produced since this date........i may stand corrected, but im of the opinion that proofs also fall into this category. they were, and are still all legal tender, but not current.

31-8-1969......the humble penny was not legal tender, was not covered by this act.

ski.

I cannot believe you have wasted so many words on perpetuating an error! Sigh. Let me try and spend fewer words to explain it.

(1)No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin which is for the time being current in the United Kingdom or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so.

Ok, let's break that down into little pieces.

1. [i](1)No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin Shall we agree that part is clear enough?

2. which is for the time being That's legal terminology. It means not only "on the date the the Act was passed", but "on any date while this Act is in force." So, for example, you could insert today's date, and it still applies.

3. current in the United Kingdom We both agree that means "currency coins", yes?

4. This is the crucial part you're not getting. or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so. That's seems clear enough to me. But just in case, I will translate or paraphrase : "any coin that has been currency (in UK) but has been made non-currency since 16th May 1969." That doesn't include the farthing. However, it includes your penny, your halfpenny, your halfcrown, your threepenny bit, your decimal halfpenny, your large 50p, 10p, 5p coins ... all of which ceased to be currency AFTER 16th May 1969, but all of which have been currency at some time.

Sigh.

[ski 1]

I cannot believe you have wasted so many words on perpetuating an error! Sigh. Let me try and spend fewer words to explain it.

(1)No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin which is for the time being current in the United Kingdom or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so.

Ok, let's break that down into little pieces.

1. (1)No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin Shall we agree that part is clear enough?

2. which is for the time being That's legal terminology. It means not only "on the date the the Act was passed", but "on any date while this Act is in force." So, for example, you could insert today's date, and it still applies.

3. current in the United Kingdom We both agree that means "currency coins", yes?

4. This is the crucial part you're not getting. or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so. That's seems clear enough to me. But just in case, I will translate or paraphrase : "any coin that has been currency (in UK) but has been made non-currency since 16th May 1969." That doesn't include the farthing. However, it includes your penny, your halfpenny, your halfcrown, your threepenny bit, your decimal halfpenny, your large 50p, 10p, 5p coins ... all of which ceased to be currency AFTER 16th May 1969, but all of which have been currency at some time.

Sigh.

peckris I cannot believe you have wasted so many words on perpetuating an error! Sigh. Let me try and spend fewer words to explain it.

there are none so blind as those who wont see.........

the act of 1971 only applies to coins who were legal tender on the 31-8-1971.............thats it.