Cleaned Coins

[Red Riley 2]

I have just returned an 1819 6d said to be AU, to a well-known auction house on the grounds that it had been aggressively cleaned. I did not attend the auction and bid purely on the strength of a photograph on their website. Following a fairly cordial conversation with them, I don't anticipate any problems getting my money back. My point however is this; I have visited many auctions over the last year and quite frankly uncleaned silver coins appear to be in the minority but seldom if ever is this noted in the auction catalogue.

Now something is wrong here, the first thing we are told on becoming a coin collector is that you shouldn't clean your coins as this will affect their value, but somebody is doing it and has been for a very long time if the numbers involved are anything to go by. If a saleroom is able to spot an obscure variety of King Charles I shilling or whatever, then surely they must be able to spot the tell-tale hairlines typical of manual cleaning or the flat deadness of chemical dipping. The answer is I suppose, obvious - the hammer price would be lower if they came clean (pardon the pun) and their profits would be affected.

Or perhaps it is us that should stop being so naive. The older a coin, the greater is the chance of it having been found in less than ideal circumstances i.e. the soil, and let's face it, no William I penny has been handed down from father to son over nearly 1000 years, therefore all will have been found in the ground and all will have been cleaned - the only point at issue is how well has it been done? Hand-me-downs probably only start from the 18th century, but even then they will be very much in the minority. Time has at least partially cured many of the more obvious signs of cleaning, but we would be wrong to assume that a 200 year old coin has never been cleaned.

So, should we accept the situation and assume that a coin has been cleaned or should we lobby the auction houses to be more honest in their descriptions?

[Chingford 166]

I have just returned an 1819 6d said to be AU, to a well-known auction house on the grounds that it had been aggressively cleaned. I did not attend the auction and bid purely on the strength of a photograph on their website. Following a fairly cordial conversation with them, I don't anticipate any problems getting my money back. My point however is this; I have visited many auctions over the last year and quite frankly uncleaned silver coins appear to be in the minority but seldom if ever is this noted in the auction catalogue.

Now something is wrong here, the first thing we are told on becoming a coin collector is that you shouldn't clean your coins as this will affect their value, but somebody is doing it and has been for a very long time if the numbers involved are anything to go by. If a saleroom is able to spot an obscure variety of King Charles I shilling or whatever, then surely they must be able to spot the tell-tale hairlines typical of manual cleaning or the flat deadness of chemical dipping. The answer is I suppose, obvious - the hammer price would be lower if they came clean (pardon the pun) and their profits would be affected.

Or perhaps it is us that should stop being so naive. The older a coin, the greater is the chance of it having been found in less than ideal circumstances i.e. the soil, and let's face it, no William I penny has been handed down from father to son over nearly 1000 years, therefore all will have been found in the ground and all will have been cleaned - the only point at issue is how well has it been done? Hand-me-downs probably only start from the 18th century, but even then they will be very much in the minority. Time has at least partially cured many of the more obvious signs of cleaning, but we would be wrong to assume that a 200 year old coin has never been cleaned.

So, should we accept the situation and assume that a coin has been cleaned or should we lobby the auction houses to be more honest in their descriptions?

Seems to be becoming the norm in the USA, even NGC have their own 'conservors' http://www.ncscoin.com/

I can see the need of treating a coin that has come out of the ground to preserve it for the next generation, but this company approaches numismatics like any other antique, and actually promotes enhancing

the apperance of the coins,

Personally I think it is a fine line between cleaning/preserving and maybe the way things are going attitudes will change and there will be a little more tolerance towards not only gently preserving, but also the

cleaning surfaces, legends and incuse areas of built up dirt.

But i would definately say that there will never be a place in Numismatics for the Cillit bang/duraglit brigade

[Cerbera100 0]

Indeed - I've noticed a couple of lots recently that have been described as 'bright Unc' but have clearly been cleaned/dipped in the not too distant past... Mostly George III/IV, William IV and early Victoria silver...

I often wonder what is used, as my silverware at home never comes up that bright!

[scott 144]

most hammered coins are not dipped to be made shiny though, most are cleaned up carefully sso no..

this is why i would never touch AUNC UNC silver, i look for a bit of toning that comes with age, that shows it is high grade more then anything

[argentumandcoins 70]

Indeed - I've noticed a couple of lots recently that have been described as 'bright Unc' but have clearly been cleaned/dipped in the not too distant past... Mostly George III/IV, William IV and early Victoria silver...

I often wonder what is used, as my silverware at home never comes up that bright!

There are a couple of ebay sellers you could ask. One of them even states in huge bold capitals THIS COIN HAS BEEN CLEANED.

He has bought a few coins from me and I very nearly added him as a blocked bidder due to his inexcusable crimes. I understand why he does it if I can only get £10 for a toned A UNC 1887 florin and he can triple that just by "enhancing" it. What I cannot understand is the idiot that wants to pay 3 times more for a cleaned coin than a nicely toned example

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Cleaning's a bit like grade, I'm coming to accept. It so often depends on whether you're buying or selling as to how big an issue it is......

Edited August 23, 2011 by £400 for a Penny ?

[ski 1]

So, should we accept the situation and assume that a coin has been cleaned or should we lobby the auction houses to be more honest in their descriptions?

maybe a bit of both, i prefer to buy coins that havent been cleaned, grim doesnt bother me and i like toning, it would be nice in an ideal world to be told in the lot description that the coin has been cleaned, im not sure the response to lobbying would be great. one of the reasons i prefer to buy from known and respected dealers.

[Mat 2]

I find that a market has been created by cleaning coins as mentioned such as tripling the value of a vicky silver coin, however I have found that this newbie/ebay opportunist market has a threshold of around £300. Once people start cleaning coins over this value, they do not sell as well as the newbie/ebay opportunist buyers tend not to venture in values higher than that as it is too much risk for them. They know coins above this value are more for the serious collector and therefore with knowledge and experience, do not buy the cleaned coin. Then as we all know the greater the value of the coin, the more it actually starts to reduce in value if it has been cleaned. The best examples for either end of this spectrum in my opinion are Victorian half crowns, florins and shillings which people seem to pay up to 4 times the value if it is nice and shiny... and at the other end I will never forget the 'harshly cleaned' 1831 crown that sold for about £7600 which really should have fetched £12k+ if it was not cleaned. The crown looked just as amazing as the cheaper Victorian stuff but obviously if anyone is going to buy an 1831 crown, they want the top specimen.

[Peckris 579]

I was at a provincial auction about 7 years ago and there was a lot of several late Geo V and early VI silver 3ds which had obviously had their Unc-ness enhanced. A fellow dealer I was chatting to about it said that collectors were a lot less bothered about cleaned coins than they used to be. Mind you, these weren't the 'fine crazing' nor the 'dipped dead dullness', they just looked a bit too shiny. I wonder if it's true though - maybe collectors are getting less fussy?

I may have fallen victim to it too. My Vicky Gothic florin is almost untoned and has a kind of silky sheen, likewise my 1910 halfcrown. They could have been dipped very briefly, or simply had their lustre fade to a kind of silky finish. On the other hand my 1844 halfcrown was DEFINITELY too bright (Ian Richardson said, when I was exchanging 4 high grade Victorian halfcrowns for it, "Good choice, I'm surprised more people haven't shown interest in that one"!) - however, it's now toning rather nicely - the obverse to a reddish tone and the reverse with some brown/black around the edges. Exposure to the elements does seem to work.

[Peter 615]

A story I recall from a farthing dealer was that he went to look at some farthings belonging to a recently deceased old gentleman.His fairly elderly son who was a handyman had screwed them to a piece of oak and then polished them.

I confess to soaping silver and picking away with a softened toothpick and I'm quite happy with a certain about of discreet cleaning to hammered.

Prior to the wide distribution of photographic images description was everything.If auction houses can't get it right they should be told.

I sold a nice cleaned Victorian 1/- on Ebay last year.The picture I supplied didn't make the cleaning obvious but I made it clear in the description.It drew a lot of interest and went for silly money.I got + feedback.Obviously a cleaned coin is acceptable to some.

I think its been mentioned in another thread that the Germans like cleaned coins.

[azda 979]

Not all Germans like cleaned coins, but a majority do, i tend to steer clear. I have a scenario which is, that all things that glitter is gold these days. I sold recently the 1904 toned florin, did'nt do that well to be honest. I got another the other day (still awaiting its arrival) a 1910 Florin, this one is big and shiny, so we'll see how that goes, although saying that, it migh be the auction house picture, but i doubt it. Here are the 2 side by side

Edited August 23, 2011 by azda

[Generic Lad 25]

I'm a bit mixed when it comes to cleaning coins. Of course, I expect all hammered and Romans to be cleaned since I don't really want bits of dirt stuck to the coin. For modern coins though, sometimes I think cleaning improves the coin but often it doesn't. For example, I have a "junk silver" US standing liberty quarter that was cleaned and polished to the bare shiny metal, but then developed a ring of orange toning around it and personally it is one of my favorite coins because of that contrast. There are a few blackened silver coins I've got (mostly US) that I'd like to clean if it wouldn't hurt the value because I think I'd rather have them cleaned than a black, spotty patina.

I buy coins because I like them and like the price. A $40 difference between a cleaned coin and an uncleaned coin is fairly significant so assuming both coins would grade the same with wear, I'll pick up the cleaned coin, because it doesn't bother me all that much.

[Peter 615]

I'm a bit mixed when it comes to cleaning coins. Of course, I expect all hammered and Romans to be cleaned since I don't really want bits of dirt stuck to the coin. For modern coins though, sometimes I think cleaning improves the coin but often it doesn't. For example, I have a "junk silver" US standing liberty quarter that was cleaned and polished to the bare shiny metal, but then developed a ring of orange toning around it and personally it is one of my favorite coins because of that contrast. There are a few blackened silver coins I've got (mostly US) that I'd like to clean if it wouldn't hurt the value because I think I'd rather have them cleaned than a black, spotty patina.

I buy coins because I like them and like the price. A $40 difference between a cleaned coin and an uncleaned coin is fairly significant so assuming both coins would grade the same with wear, I'll pick up the cleaned coin, because it doesn't bother me all that much.

I couldn't accept a harshly cleaned coin or even a barreled ancient.I don't mind the black gunk removed from silver (or even accetate improved silver....in moderation).Gold won't need anything more than hot water and a PAT dry....Copper forget it.

I don't collect medals but I have a few inherited and a couple have obviously been polished.They have retoned nicely.

Again with coins its horses for courses and if we all had the same expectations there would be just one series of very expensive coins.

[ski 1]

what sort of time scale are we looking at for the retoning to take place?

[Peckris 579]

Not all Germans like cleaned coins, but a majority do, i tend to steer clear. I have a scenario which is, that all things that glitter is gold these days. I sold recently the 1904 toned florin, did'nt do that well to be honest. I got another the other day (still awaiting its arrival) a 1910 Florin, this one is big and shiny, so we'll see how that goes, although saying that, it migh be the auction house picture, but i doubt it. Here are the 2 side by side

At small sizes, that coin looks most attractive. But at larger sizes the attractive toning suddenly starts to look rather uneven. That may be all it was, rather than a dislike of toning per se.

I'm a bit mixed when it comes to cleaning coins. Of course, I expect all hammered and Romans to be cleaned since I don't really want bits of dirt stuck to the coin. For modern coins though, sometimes I think cleaning improves the coin but often it doesn't. For example, I have a "junk silver" US standing liberty quarter that was cleaned and polished to the bare shiny metal, but then developed a ring of orange toning around it and personally it is one of my favorite coins because of that contrast. There are a few blackened silver coins I've got (mostly US) that I'd like to clean if it wouldn't hurt the value because I think I'd rather have them cleaned than a black, spotty patina.

I buy coins because I like them and like the price. A $40 difference between a cleaned coin and an uncleaned coin is fairly significant so assuming both coins would grade the same with wear, I'll pick up the cleaned coin, because it doesn't bother me all that much.

I couldn't accept a harshly cleaned coin or even a barreled ancient.I don't mind the black gunk removed from silver (or even accetate improved silver....in moderation).Gold won't need anything more than hot water and a PAT dry....Copper forget it[/b].

I don't collect medals but I have a few inherited and a couple have obviously been polished.They have retoned nicely.

Again with coins its horses for courses and if we all had the same expectations there would be just one series of very expensive coins.

I wouldn't go that far. Really bad green can be removed quickly with balsamic vinegar overnight, or with olive oil if you don't mind waiting several months. As for general 'film', or dirt or gunk, the use of surgical spirit applied using a microfibre cloth, can help with that.

[Peckris 579]

what sort of time scale are we looking at for the retoning to take place?

Depends what you're doing. Left outside in a rain gutter, maybe only weeks or a couple of months. Otherwise it depends on where you live, how you store them, what kind of tone you want, etc etc. I'm using the flat top shelf of a mahogany cabinet, where there are no punched holes, to try some pieces. It seems to take forever.

[ski 1]

It seems to take forever.

interesting, i may try that for myself on 1 or 2 cheapie coins.

i do like the lovely blue tone some of my victorian silver has, but i hate the extreme rainbow toning that the americans seem to like.

[Peckris 579]

It seems to take forever.

interesting, i may try that for myself on 1 or 2 cheapie coins.

i do like the lovely blue tone some of my victorian silver has, but i hate the extreme rainbow toning that the americans seem to like.

Artificially assisted very often. E.g. petrol.

[ski 1]

ive been hunting for a nice double florin proof for a while, last week there was a slabbed one on ebay.........the slab i can live with......the rainbow toning was done to extreme.....for me at least, it ruined the coin.

funnt isnt it.........i would have never have considered taking petrol any where near a coin, and yet so many like their coins this way.

[Peter 615]

A copper coin with verdigris is a big no.Upon removal (or attempted)a scar/hole will be left.

A patina will only occur if its been incorrectly stored ie nailed to a weathercock on a church roof.

I have a couple of copper coins which came out of the ground (dry sandy soil of the brecklands)these are very

dark but pleasant enough.

My copper is surrounded by silica and kept at a fairly constant temp 15-25c.I've heard about so many disasters with copper.

[Peckris 579]

A copper coin with verdigris is a big no.Upon removal (or attempted)a scar/hole will be left.

A patina will only occur if its been incorrectly stored ie nailed to a weathercock on a church roof.

I have a couple of copper coins which came out of the ground (dry sandy soil of the brecklands)these are very

dark but pleasant enough.

My copper is surrounded by silica and kept at a fairly constant temp 15-25c.I've heard about so many disasters with copper.

Not if the green is only on the surface, as much of it is if caught in reasonable time. It takes (I think) a considerable time for verdigris to sink deeper into the metal, if the coin is not buried. All the coins I've treated the 'vinegar way' have successfully lost the green. The price you pay is that the coin lightens quite a lot, and where the green was, darker patches are left. For some, this might be too high a price to pay, but I found that a high grade 1853 farthing, 1922 & 1936 pennies, all came up quite nice with the green all gone.

[Red Riley 2]

Not if the green is only on the surface, as much of it is if caught in reasonable time. It takes (I think) a considerable time for verdigris to sink deeper into the metal, if the coin is not buried. All the coins I've treated the 'vinegar way' have successfully lost the green. The price you pay is that the coin lightens quite a lot, and where the green was, darker patches are left. For some, this might be too high a price to pay, but I found that a high grade 1853 farthing, 1922 & 1936 pennies, all came up quite nice with the green all gone.

OK, here's my way of treating a toned copper coin coin with a verdigris hole appearing;

1) Carefully scour the hole with a needle to remove as much verdigris as possible;

2) Carefully wash coin;

3) Soak end of cocktail stick in ammonia for 15-20 mins;

4) Very carefully knock off all drips from cocktail stick;

5) Even more carefully insert stick into hole and twist around. What you are trying to avoid here is getting any ammonia on the undamaged surface of the coin;

6) Make up a paste of sulphur and vaseline. You only need a tiny quantity;

7) Take another needle and put a tiny amount of the paste in the hole;

8) Leave for a while. The longer it is left, the darker the area treated with the paste will become, so it is possible to some degree match with the colour of the coin;

9) Wash coin again;

10) Bob's your uncle, Fanny's your aunt!

[Peckris 579]

Not if the green is only on the surface, as much of it is if caught in reasonable time. It takes (I think) a considerable time for verdigris to sink deeper into the metal, if the coin is not buried. All the coins I've treated the 'vinegar way' have successfully lost the green. The price you pay is that the coin lightens quite a lot, and where the green was, darker patches are left. For some, this might be too high a price to pay, but I found that a high grade 1853 farthing, 1922 & 1936 pennies, all came up quite nice with the green all gone.

OK, here's my way of treating a toned copper coin coin with a verdigris hole appearing;

1) Carefully scour the hole with a needle to remove as much verdigris as possible;

2) Carefully wash coin;

3) Soak end of cocktail stick in ammonia for 15-20 mins;

4) Very carefully knock off all drips from cocktail stick;

5) Even more carefully insert stick into hole and twist around. What you are trying to avoid here is getting any ammonia on the undamaged surface of the coin;

6) Make up a paste of sulphur and vaseline. You only need a tiny quantity;

7) Take another needle and put a tiny amount of the paste in the hole;

8) Leave for a while. The longer it is left, the darker the area treated with the paste will become, so it is possible to some degree match with the colour of the coin;

9) Wash coin again;

10) Bob's your uncle, Fanny's your aunt!

Wow. Do you think your method would work on my 1720 halfpenny?

[Red Riley 2]

Wow. Do you think your method would work on my 1720 halfpenny?

Amonia would certainly work on the verdigris, but it evaporates quickly, so cannot just be put on affected parts of the surface and if you immerse the coin in the ammonia you strip the patina. Being me, I would have to experiment, particularly as it is pretty much unsaleable as it stands.

[Peckris 579]

Wow. Do you think your method would work on my 1720 halfpenny?

Amonia would certainly work on the verdigris, but it evaporates quickly, so cannot just be put on affected parts of the surface and if you immerse the coin in the ammonia you strip the patina. Being me, I would have to experiment, particularly as it is pretty much unsaleable as it stands.

Oh, I don't know. The obverse is totally unaffected, and it's a VF coin otherwise.