Coins you've never seen

[DaveG38 405]

I'm a date run collector of just about every denomination, so that means eventually I get to a point where I'm waiting to fill that nagging gap in a series. In just a few odd cases, there are some coins I don't think I've ever seen for sale - anywhere! For instance, I need a 1853 Groat. I know the mintage is low and may not relate to the date on the coin, but has anybody ever seen one? Ditto the 1728 shilling with the roses and plumes reverse. Spink always says that the plain reverse is the rarer (and more expensive) but I've seen loads of plain ones in varying condition, yet never a R&P type. Do they actually exist out there? I wonder and if so why don't they come up at all.

And finally, the 1686 halfpenny. The 1687 is scarce but not too difficult and I managed a 1685 of somewhat dubious date, but never a 1686 - again where are they all?

[Gary D 76]

I'm a date run collector of just about every denomination, so that means eventually I get to a point where I'm waiting to fill that nagging gap in a series. In just a few odd cases, there are some coins I don't think I've ever seen for sale - anywhere! For instance, I need a 1853 Groat. I know the mintage is low and may not relate to the date on the coin, but has anybody ever seen one? Ditto the 1728 shilling with the roses and plumes reverse. Spink always says that the plain reverse is the rarer (and more expensive) but I've seen loads of plain ones in varying condition, yet never a R&P type. Do they actually exist out there? I wonder and if so why don't they come up at all.

And finally, the 1686 halfpenny. The 1687 is scarce but not too difficult and I managed a 1685 of somewhat dubious date, but never a 1686 - again where are they all?

I'm having the same problem with the Obv 2 1903 Shilling. Since the recent descovery of the rare 2a every Obv 2 I've seen has been a 2a, does the Obv 2 even exist?

[scott 144]

any none shield 2008 50p and any later dates

[Rob 3,152]

I'm a date run collector of just about every denomination, so that means eventually I get to a point where I'm waiting to fill that nagging gap in a series. In just a few odd cases, there are some coins I don't think I've ever seen for sale - anywhere! For instance, I need a 1853 Groat. I know the mintage is low and may not relate to the date on the coin, but has anybody ever seen one? Ditto the 1728 shilling with the roses and plumes reverse. Spink always says that the plain reverse is the rarer (and more expensive) but I've seen loads of plain ones in varying condition, yet never a R&P type. Do they actually exist out there? I wonder and if so why don't they come up at all.

And finally, the 1686 halfpenny. The 1687 is scarce but not too difficult and I managed a 1685 of somewhat dubious date, but never a 1686 - again where are they all?

1728 R&P - A tad optimistic on grade here.

1728 R&P

1728 R&P

1686 halfpenny (item 028)

1686 halfpenny

[azda 979]

I'm a date run collector of just about every denomination, so that means eventually I get to a point where I'm waiting to fill that nagging gap in a series. In just a few odd cases, there are some coins I don't think I've ever seen for sale - anywhere! For instance, I need a 1853 Groat. I know the mintage is low and may not relate to the date on the coin, but has anybody ever seen one? Ditto the 1728 shilling with the roses and plumes reverse. Spink always says that the plain reverse is the rarer (and more expensive) but I've seen loads of plain ones in varying condition, yet never a R&P type. Do they actually exist out there? I wonder and if so why don't they come up at all.

And finally, the 1686 halfpenny. The 1687 is scarce but not too difficult and I managed a 1685 of somewhat dubious date, but never a 1686 - again where are they all?

Another would be the 1850 Shilling, never seen one at all.

[declanwmagee 122]

A 20th centiry selection - there's plenty more!

1964 and 1965 scarcer type sixpences

F474 1956 ha'penny

F437 1940 ha'penny

1937 1+B silver 3d

several of the 1920-1923 big silver varieties (but that's probably because I haven't been looking hard enough for them.)

1915 close TT farthing

1 each of 1913 and 1908 penny varieties

I did manage to score my first unconfirmed Davies number though: D.751 1870 gothic florin. Hasn't arrived yet, but at least it shows that some of them do exist.

[scott 144]

only ever seen 1 1968 halfpenny

[declanwmagee 122]

only ever seen 1 1968 halfpenny

Dated 1968 Scott, or 1967 wide rim?

[Peckris 579]

only ever seen 1 1968 halfpenny

That's unlucky scott. They are extremely common even though only a fraction of the even-commoner 1967. I have some in UNC with lots of lustre (I got a whole tub of them in a Lockdales auction lot, there's still a small number left).

[VickySilver 830]

I have to add the 1854 half sovereign.

I have never seen it, nor confirmed existence of it even though it is listed in many catalogues. There are those infernal "model" bits which are not even models by my view, but rather souvenir bits.

Anybody?

[Nick 329]

Another would be the 1850 Shilling, never seen one at all.

There was one up for auction in a St James's Auction late last year. It went for £440 and it wasn't even in fine grade. You do see them turn up occasionally on eBay, but usually in poor condition.

[TomGoodheart 400]

One of these. A Charles I shilling, Sharp D2/2.

While Spink list S2790 as D1-3/2 I'm not aware anyone has ever seen the second bust with that reverse even though examples exist with bust 1 (6) and 3(2) so odds on some coins were struck ...

[ski 1]

sorry, not so exotic but......

I soooooo wanna see an 1887 proof d/florin...........to buy one.....even better

[Peckris 579]

sorry, not so exotic but......

I soooooo wanna see an 1887 proof d/florin...........to buy one.....even better

Our friend 1887jubilee might help you out with a picture :-)

[ski 1]

[Our friend 1887jubilee might help you out with a picture :-)

/quote]

like all coin collectors peckris......i crave more than pics....i have to say though, this forum has given me a few pics lately, but you know how it is, the real thing, in the hand is what matters,

anybody got 1 for sale?

[Nick 329]

Another would be the 1850 Shilling, never seen one at all.

London Coins have one showing on the preview page for their December 2011 auction, although it's not in great condition.

[Peckris 579]

[Our friend 1887jubilee might help you out with a picture :-)

like all coin collectors peckris......i crave more than pics....i have to say though, this forum has given me a few pics lately, but you know how it is, the real thing, in the hand is what matters,

anybody got 1 for sale?

Ski, what's going wrong with your "Quotes" when replying to posts? They all seem to be missing a [ or a ]. Which means that when we try to reply we get an error saying the opening quotes don't match the closing quotes. Sort it out, there's a good chap!!!

[ski 1]

Ski, what's going wrong with your "Quotes" when replying to posts? They all seem to be missing a [ or a ]. Which means that when we try to reply we get an error saying the opening quotes don't match the closing quotes. Sort it out, there's a good chap!!!

whooo sorry guys......has this happened before?.........sort it out.....sheeeeeeeeeet if only i knew how

[ski 1]

maybe okay now right?

[Peckris 579]

Ski, what's going wrong with your "Quotes" when replying to posts? They all seem to be missing a [ or a ]. Which means that when we try to reply we get an error saying the opening quotes don't match the closing quotes. Sort it out, there's a good chap!!!

whooo sorry guys......has this happened before?.........sort it out.....sheeeeeeeeeet if only i knew how

Yup, that's fine - thank you thank you

[DaveG38 405]

I'm a date run collector of just about every denomination, so that means eventually I get to a point where I'm waiting to fill that nagging gap in a series. In just a few odd cases, there are some coins I don't think I've ever seen for sale - anywhere! For instance, I need a 1853 Groat. I know the mintage is low and may not relate to the date on the coin, but has anybody ever seen one? Ditto the 1728 shilling with the roses and plumes reverse. Spink always says that the plain reverse is the rarer (and more expensive) but I've seen loads of plain ones in varying condition, yet never a R&P type. Do they actually exist out there? I wonder and if so why don't they come up at all.

And finally, the 1686 halfpenny. The 1687 is scarce but not too difficult and I managed a 1685 of somewhat dubious date, but never a 1686 - again where are they all?

1728 R&P - A tad optimistic on grade here.

1728 R&P

1728 R&P

1686 halfpenny (item 028)

1686 halfpenny

Rob,

Thanks for the information. I was probably aware of the Nicholson 1686 halfpenny but it had slipped my mind. As far as the 1728 shilling goes, it's nice to see that they exist - I just wish that one would come along in my price range. I guess what I'm grumbling about is that the price guides for these coins don't seem to reflect reality for the collector. So, if I never see a 1728 R&P shilling for sale in say VF condition, how come a price guide can specify what the price might be. My guess is that they don't really find examples of everything when compiling the new year's guide, but simply rely on the dates they do see and correlate these with those they don't. In this way, if they came up with a price for the 1728 say 20 years ago and never see another all they do is keep the price proportionally in line with say the historical differential with a 1728 plain. What this doesn't do, which is my grumble, is reassess the true rarity.

A classic example of this is the 1843 shilling, which for years was given prices near to the 1842 and 1844, yet was almost never seen, and when I saw (and bought it) one the price was way off the guide book scale.

[Rob 3,152]

Thanks for the information. I was probably aware of the Nicholson 1686 halfpenny but it had slipped my mind. As far as the 1728 shilling goes, it's nice to see that they exist - I just wish that one would come along in my price range. I guess what I'm grumbling about is that the price guides for these coins don't seem to reflect reality for the collector. So, if I never see a 1728 R&P shilling for sale in say VF condition, how come a price guide can specify what the price might be. My guess is that they don't really find examples of everything when compiling the new year's guide, but simply rely on the dates they do see and correlate these with those they don't. In this way, if they came up with a price for the 1728 say 20 years ago and never see another all they do is keep the price proportionally in line with say the historical differential with a 1728 plain. What this doesn't do, which is my grumble, is reassess the true rarity.

A classic example of this is the 1843 shilling, which for years was given prices near to the 1842 and 1844, yet was almost never seen, and when I saw (and bought it) one the price was way off the guide book scale.

This happens frequently and the rarer the coin, the less often they come up and the more infrequent the realistic price revisions. The coin I bought in Spink yesterday appears to be the only example available, yet has been priced at VF in Spink about £150 over the quite frequently encountered Rawlins signed 1646/5 for quite a long time. Given the last time this particular coin was at Spink was in 1995, I guess they didn't have a lot to go on. Another thing is that there is a relentless flight to quality and so any coins above the run of the mill grades for that type will not obey any pricing rules - if there are any!

Prices are only a guide, so every sale has its buyers who may be more or less determined to buy. Anyone who does a bit of basic research will know what prices are regularly achieved for those coins relevant to their collecting criteria and by extension will recognise an above average example which will inevitably influence the price they are willing to pay. Average coins which are not difficult to obtain will always have downwards pressure as people wait for the next example to come along. Above average is inherently more desirable to more people.

[Rob 3,152]

As far as the 1728 shilling goes, it's nice to see that they exist - I just wish that one would come along in my price range. I guess what I'm grumbling about is that the price guides for these coins don't seem to reflect reality for the collector. So, if I never see a 1728 R&P shilling for sale in say VF condition, how come a price guide can specify what the price might be. My guess is that they don't really find examples of everything when compiling the new year's guide, but simply rely on the dates they do see and correlate these with those they don't. In this way, if they came up with a price for the 1728 say 20 years ago and never see another all they do is keep the price proportionally in line with say the historical differential with a 1728 plain. What this doesn't do, which is my grumble, is reassess the true rarity.

A classic example of this is the 1843 shilling, which for years was given prices near to the 1842 and 1844, yet was almost never seen, and when I saw (and bought it) one the price was way off the guide book scale.

I'm not sure why you are grumbling. The mere fact that you are aware of a price differential between quoted and reality means there is always a bit of scope for arbitrage. If the quoted price is too low, then just accept that you will have to pay more. After all, if you have paid a couple thousand for a 1934 crown or the 1989 proof set, then a sum less than this shouldn't be too much of a problem. The fact that you recognise the price in the books is way too low will give you an advantage over those who don't want to pay more than the reassuring figure quoted in whatever reference. People put off by quoted figures are competition eliminated - that's a reduction in the size of the problem because when you see a coin that's hard to find the chances are that others are looking for the same thing. Many collectors use price guides as a sort of comfort blanket when in reality it should never be more than a rule of thumb reference for the most commonly seen items. If CCGB quotes a price that is lower than Spink, many will not pay Spink prices because the other book says you can get it cheaper. The reality is though that both could be wrong as neither (can) take into account eye appeal, nor hope to comprehensively cover the market. Prices can be and frequently are out by a factor of two in either direction.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Rob

[TomGoodheart 400]

As Rob suggests, knowledge is power. When I bought my most expensive shilling the Spink price was £1250 in VF. But I knew that there were only four known examples and so the price hadn't been updated for who knows how long because none had appeared on the market. I also knew that none of the examples was much better than VF and so an example only marginally worse than the Brooker (Burstall, Lockett, Morrieson, Wheeler, Carlyon-Britton) coin was likely as good as I'd get, despite a grade of nVF.

Presumably the published price put a few people off going too high (the estimate was £1800-£2200), but since so few examples are likely to come on the market I bid what I could afford.

When I consider the price of Newark coins and how many there are of the darned things (not that number necessarily affects the value, but I think if it was just about scarcity they are way overpriced) and that I paid some £600 less than my bid, I reckon I bought cheap.

[DaveG38 405]

As far as the 1728 shilling goes, it's nice to see that they exist - I just wish that one would come along in my price range. I guess what I'm grumbling about is that the price guides for these coins don't seem to reflect reality for the collector. So, if I never see a 1728 R&P shilling for sale in say VF condition, how come a price guide can specify what the price might be. My guess is that they don't really find examples of everything when compiling the new year's guide, but simply rely on the dates they do see and correlate these with those they don't. In this way, if they came up with a price for the 1728 say 20 years ago and never see another all they do is keep the price proportionally in line with say the historical differential with a 1728 plain. What this doesn't do, which is my grumble, is reassess the true rarity.

A classic example of this is the 1843 shilling, which for years was given prices near to the 1842 and 1844, yet was almost never seen, and when I saw (and bought it) one the price was way off the guide book scale.

I'm not sure why you are grumbling. The mere fact that you are aware of a price differential between quoted and reality means there is always a bit of scope for arbitrage. If the quoted price is too low, then just accept that you will have to pay more. After all, if you have paid a couple thousand for a 1934 crown or the 1989 proof set, then a sum less than this shouldn't be too much of a problem. The fact that you recognise the price in the books is way too low will give you an advantage over those who don't want to pay more than the reassuring figure quoted in whatever reference. People put off by quoted figures are competition eliminated - that's a reduction in the size of the problem because when you see a coin that's hard to find the chances are that others are looking for the same thing. Many collectors use price guides as a sort of comfort blanket when in reality it should never be more than a rule of thumb reference for the most commonly seen items. If CCGB quotes a price that is lower than Spink, many will not pay Spink prices because the other book says you can get it cheaper. The reality is though that both could be wrong as neither (can) take into account eye appeal, nor hope to comprehensively cover the market. Prices can be and frequently are out by a factor of two in either direction.

Whilst I understand the logic of what you are saying, I personally quite like the reassurance of a guide price for a coin, as I may have no idea where to go with it. Without an idea, it may be likely that I will pay well over what it is really worth (yes, I know that's what somebody will pay and since I paid it that is its true value) and so judging what its worth to me is made that bit more difficult. For example, I was the losing bidder in the Cumbria auction for the 1693 farthing in F. There are no guide prices for this coin and little to go on, and so I stopped at £2K. My only guide was one on the CC website in VF/GVF which went for £9K. Without that £9K ceiling for the stated condition, I would have had no real idea of when to stop bidding.

I guess my grumble isn't about the prices of truly rare coins, but the lack of realistic price and rarity of those which are currently considered to be of 'normal' availability. For me the 1843 shilling is a classic example.

Edited October 7, 2011 by DaveG38