Coins you've never seen

[Rob 3,152]

Whilst I understand the logic of what you are saying, I personally quite like the reassurance of a guide price for a coin, as I may have no idea where to go with it. Without an idea, it may be likely that I will pay well over what it is really worth (yes, I know that's what somebody will pay and since I paid it that is its true value) and so judging what its worth to me is made that bit more difficult. For example, I was the losing bidder in the Cumbria auction for the 1693 farthing in F. There are no guide prices for this coin and little to go on, and so I stopped at £2K. My only guide was one on the CC website in VF/GVF which went for £9K. Without that £9K ceiling for the stated condition, I would have had no real idea of when to stop bidding.

I guess my grumble isn't about the prices of truly rare coins, but the lack of realistic price and rarity of those which are currently considered to be of 'normal' availability. For me the 1843 shilling is a classic example.

In the case of the 1693 you already had a guide for VF-gVF, so the only questions that needed answering were 'how many are available and what grades are they?' If all are similar in grade then a reasonable assumption would be the date of the last sale, the price achieved and a multiplier to account for across the board price changes since that date together with a mark down for the lower grade of this piece. If something is sought after (and it's probably fair to say a 1693 is sought after), then maybe half the VF price would be a reasonable target. There are more than a handful of serious farthing collectors out there, plus the esoteric always appeals to someone who wants a quality collection in numismatic terms. Not everything has to be in high grade to appeal if rare enough, though it does help if it looks ok. I would have thought £3-4K incl. premium would not be excessive. At £2K I would have been over the moon if bidding and won it.

I know where you are coming from on the question of certain key dates, but the problem with these is that the price is likely to be determined by the number of serious collectors present on the day and hence volatile. On the plus side, if Spink quote say £300 for a coin in their annual tome and you know full well that they always exceed that at auction, then it's clearly time to monitor their website and the Circular closely as you may well pick up one cheaply. They may list higher prices on their site than those quoted in the book, but are unlikely to exceed them by a vast amount. Do the spadework and it will pay off.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Rob

[Peter 615]

As Rob suggests, knowledge is power. When I bought my most expensive shilling the Spink price was £1250 in VF. But I knew that there were only four known examples and so the price hadn't been updated for who knows how long because none had appeared on the market. I also knew that none of the examples was much better than VF and so an example only marginally worse than the Brooker (Burstall, Lockett, Morrieson, Wheeler, Carlyon-Britton) coin was likely as good as I'd get, despite a grade of nVF.

Presumably the published price put a few people off going too high (the estimate was £1800-£2200), but since so few examples are likely to come on the market I bid what I could afford.

When I consider the price of Newark coins and how many there are of the darned things (not that number necessarily affects the value, but I think if it was just about scarcity they are way overpriced) and that I paid some £600 less than my bid, I reckon I bought cheap.

The Newark coins stand out to be different and have a definite story.I'm sure your 1/- is only readily identifiable by an expert.

So not being a Charles 1 1/- expert I would go for the Newark everytime.

[Peter 615]

Whilst I understand the logic of what you are saying, I personally quite like the reassurance of a guide price for a coin, as I may have no idea where to go with it. Without an idea, it may be likely that I will pay well over what it is really worth (yes, I know that's what somebody will pay and since I paid it that is its true value) and so judging what its worth to me is made that bit more difficult. For example, I was the losing bidder in the Cumbria auction for the 1693 farthing in F. There are no guide prices for this coin and little to go on, and so I stopped at £2K. My only guide was one on the CC website in VF/GVF which went for £9K. Without that £9K ceiling for the stated condition, I would have had no real idea of when to stop bidding.

I guess my grumble isn't about the prices of truly rare coins, but the lack of realistic price and rarity of those which are currently considered to be of 'normal' availability. For me the 1843 shilling is a classic example.

In the case of the 1693 you already had a guide for VF-gVF, so the only questions that needed answering were 'how many are available and what grades are they?' If all are similar in grade then a reasonable assumption would be the date of the last sale, the price achieved and a multiplier to account for across the board price changes since that date together with a mark down for the lower grade of this piece. If something is sought after (and it's probably fair to say a 1693 is sought after), then maybe half the VF price would be a reasonable target. There are more than a handful of serious farthing collectors out there, plus the esoteric always appeals to someone who wants a quality collection in numismatic terms. Not everything has to be in high grade to appeal if rare enough, though it does help if it looks ok. I would have thought £3-4K incl. premium would not be excessive. At £2K I would have been over the moon if bidding and won it.

I know where you are coming from on the question of certain key dates, but the problem with these is that the price is likely to be determined by the number of serious collectors present on the day and hence volatile. On the plus side, if Spink quote say £300 for a coin in their annual tome and you know full well that they always exceed that at auction, then it's clearly time to monitor their website and the Circular closely as you may well pick up one cheaply. They may list higher prices on their site than those quoted in the book, but are unlikely to exceed them by a vast amount. Do the spadework and it will pay off.

I would have a problem paying 4k for a coin in F when a GVF would cost 9k.

4k for a farthing and it would have to be unique (and have eye appeal)

[Rob 3,152]

Whilst I understand the logic of what you are saying, I personally quite like the reassurance of a guide price for a coin, as I may have no idea where to go with it. Without an idea, it may be likely that I will pay well over what it is really worth (yes, I know that's what somebody will pay and since I paid it that is its true value) and so judging what its worth to me is made that bit more difficult. For example, I was the losing bidder in the Cumbria auction for the 1693 farthing in F. There are no guide prices for this coin and little to go on, and so I stopped at £2K. My only guide was one on the CC website in VF/GVF which went for £9K. Without that £9K ceiling for the stated condition, I would have had no real idea of when to stop bidding.

I guess my grumble isn't about the prices of truly rare coins, but the lack of realistic price and rarity of those which are currently considered to be of 'normal' availability. For me the 1843 shilling is a classic example.

In the case of the 1693 you already had a guide for VF-gVF, so the only questions that needed answering were 'how many are available and what grades are they?' If all are similar in grade then a reasonable assumption would be the date of the last sale, the price achieved and a multiplier to account for across the board price changes since that date together with a mark down for the lower grade of this piece. If something is sought after (and it's probably fair to say a 1693 is sought after), then maybe half the VF price would be a reasonable target. There are more than a handful of serious farthing collectors out there, plus the esoteric always appeals to someone who wants a quality collection in numismatic terms. Not everything has to be in high grade to appeal if rare enough, though it does help if it looks ok. I would have thought £3-4K incl. premium would not be excessive. At £2K I would have been over the moon if bidding and won it.

I know where you are coming from on the question of certain key dates, but the problem with these is that the price is likely to be determined by the number of serious collectors present on the day and hence volatile. On the plus side, if Spink quote say £300 for a coin in their annual tome and you know full well that they always exceed that at auction, then it's clearly time to monitor their website and the Circular closely as you may well pick up one cheaply. They may list higher prices on their site than those quoted in the book, but are unlikely to exceed them by a vast amount. Do the spadework and it will pay off.

I would have a problem paying 4k for a coin in F when a GVF would cost 9k.

4k for a farthing and it would have to be unique (and have eye appeal)

The grade was VF-gVF. I don't know which side was VF and which gVF, but I use the assumption you use the lower graded side as the base rather than the higher and with only a handful known, I think £3K plus premium would not be so far short of the mark if genuinely rare, after all it is only a grade up. It would need eye appeal though if low grade and certainly not have any faults. Personally I think 9K for a VF-gVF farthing is a lot of money anyway, but if that is where the market is then so be it.

[Peckris 579]

The grade was VF-gVF. I don't know which side was VF and which gVF

Convention has it that if you use a hyphen between stated grades, it applies to the overall coin, i.e. both sides are the same. Otherwise, as I'm sure I don't need to tell you!, it's a / with the obverse first and reverse second.

[Rob 3,152]

The grade was VF-gVF. I don't know which side was VF and which gVF

Convention has it that if you use a hyphen between stated grades, it applies to the overall coin, i.e. both sides are the same. Otherwise, as I'm sure I don't need to tell you!, it's a / with the obverse first and reverse second.

True, I wasn't paying attention and replying on the fly between jobs. Ok, so it's a decent VF, but still not gVF and only a full grade or so over. Therefore, the only question is, what would the price of a Fine coin relative to a decent VF be? A gap of over £5K in this instance seems reasonable given the absolute rarity of the item irrespective of whether you would personally want to pay £3-4K for a farthing in fine. £2K seems too cheap though.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Rob

[DaveG38 405]

Whilst I understand the logic of what you are saying, I personally quite like the reassurance of a guide price for a coin, as I may have no idea where to go with it. Without an idea, it may be likely that I will pay well over what it is really worth (yes, I know that's what somebody will pay and since I paid it that is its true value) and so judging what its worth to me is made that bit more difficult. For example, I was the losing bidder in the Cumbria auction for the 1693 farthing in F. There are no guide prices for this coin and little to go on, and so I stopped at £2K. My only guide was one on the CC website in VF/GVF which went for £9K. Without that £9K ceiling for the stated condition, I would have had no real idea of when to stop bidding.

I guess my grumble isn't about the prices of truly rare coins, but the lack of realistic price and rarity of those which are currently considered to be of 'normal' availability. For me the 1843 shilling is a classic example.

In the case of the 1693 you already had a guide for VF-gVF, so the only questions that needed answering were 'how many are available and what grades are they?' If all are similar in grade then a reasonable assumption would be the date of the last sale, the price achieved and a multiplier to account for across the board price changes since that date together with a mark down for the lower grade of this piece. If something is sought after (and it's probably fair to say a 1693 is sought after), then maybe half the VF price would be a reasonable target. There are more than a handful of serious farthing collectors out there, plus the esoteric always appeals to someone who wants a quality collection in numismatic terms. Not everything has to be in high grade to appeal if rare enough, though it does help if it looks ok. I would have thought £3-4K incl. premium would not be excessive. At £2K I would have been over the moon if bidding and won it.

I know where you are coming from on the question of certain key dates, but the problem with these is that the price is likely to be determined by the number of serious collectors present on the day and hence volatile. On the plus side, if Spink quote say £300 for a coin in their annual tome and you know full well that they always exceed that at auction, then it's clearly time to monitor their website and the Circular closely as you may well pick up one cheaply. They may list higher prices on their site than those quoted in the book, but are unlikely to exceed them by a vast amount. Do the spadework and it will pay off.

I would have a problem paying 4k for a coin in F when a GVF would cost 9k.

4k for a farthing and it would have to be unique (and have eye appeal)

The grade was VF-gVF. I don't know which side was VF and which gVF, but I use the assumption you use the lower graded side as the base rather than the higher and with only a handful known, I think £3K plus premium would not be so far short of the mark if genuinely rare, after all it is only a grade up. It would need eye appeal though if low grade and certainly not have any faults. Personally I think 9K for a VF-gVF farthing is a lot of money anyway, but if that is where the market is then so be it.

At the time, my thinking was that the price ratio of VF:F for coins of that age and general rarity e.g. the 1689 halfpenny or the tin farthings was around 4:1. on this basis a £9k coin in VF equates roughly to £2.25K in Fine, so allowing for premiums my £2K limit was around £2.5K actual which is over the 4:1 ratio. Allow too for the slightly higher grade of the VF coin and £2k looked about right to me. However, it wasn't to be. I'm not too worried though, as although I have a complete date run of farthings, I don't actually collect trial and other non-currency pieces, so I don't include Queen Anne even though they circulated, and this wasn't a currency issue albeit some obviously circulated. At the time of the sale it looked an interesting buy, but the shine went off it at £2k, especially when it's authenticity was a little unclear.

Edited October 7, 2011 by DaveG38

[Gary D 76]

Whilst I understand the logic of what you are saying, I personally quite like the reassurance of a guide price for a coin, as I may have no idea where to go with it. Without an idea, it may be likely that I will pay well over what it is really worth (yes, I know that's what somebody will pay and since I paid it that is its true value) and so judging what its worth to me is made that bit more difficult. For example, I was the losing bidder in the Cumbria auction for the 1693 farthing in F. There are no guide prices for this coin and little to go on, and so I stopped at £2K. My only guide was one on the CC website in VF/GVF which went for £9K. Without that £9K ceiling for the stated condition, I would have had no real idea of when to stop bidding.

I guess my grumble isn't about the prices of truly rare coins, but the lack of realistic price and rarity of those which are currently considered to be of 'normal' availability. For me the 1843 shilling is a classic example.

In the case of the 1693 you already had a guide for VF-gVF, so the only questions that needed answering were 'how many are available and what grades are they?' If all are similar in grade then a reasonable assumption would be the date of the last sale, the price achieved and a multiplier to account for across the board price changes since that date together with a mark down for the lower grade of this piece. If something is sought after (and it's probably fair to say a 1693 is sought after), then maybe half the VF price would be a reasonable target. There are more than a handful of serious farthing collectors out there, plus the esoteric always appeals to someone who wants a quality collection in numismatic terms. Not everything has to be in high grade to appeal if rare enough, though it does help if it looks ok. I would have thought £3-4K incl. premium would not be excessive. At £2K I would have been over the moon if bidding and won it.

I know where you are coming from on the question of certain key dates, but the problem with these is that the price is likely to be determined by the number of serious collectors present on the day and hence volatile. On the plus side, if Spink quote say £300 for a coin in their annual tome and you know full well that they always exceed that at auction, then it's clearly time to monitor their website and the Circular closely as you may well pick up one cheaply. They may list higher prices on their site than those quoted in the book, but are unlikely to exceed them by a vast amount. Do the spadework and it will pay off.

A couple of coins on the spink site that caught my interest were 2x their book and had flown the nest within a couple of days. On the general subject of coin prices there were two 1935 proof crowns at Coinex, one for £4500 and the other for £6000. Three have gone through auctions in the last 2-3 years at £1900, £2000 and £2200. Baring in mind there is only assumed to be 3-4 of these and I've got one of them someone is trying to make a good profit.

[Gary D 76]

The grade was VF-gVF. I don't know which side was VF and which gVF

Convention has it that if you use a hyphen between stated grades, it applies to the overall coin, i.e. both sides are the same. Otherwise, as I'm sure I don't need to tell you!, it's a / with the obverse first and reverse second.

True, I wasn't paying attention and replying on the fly between jobs. Ok, so it's a decent VF, but still not gVF and only a full grade or so over. Therefore, the only question is, what would the price of a Fine coin relative to a decent VF be? A gap of over £5K in this instance seems reasonable given the absolute rarity of the item irrespective of whether you would personally want to pay £3-4K for a farthing in fine. £2K seems too cheap though.

If a coin is that rare would the price differential between grades be that great, and would it be more a case of do you want one or don't you.

[Rob 3,152]

The grade was VF-gVF. I don't know which side was VF and which gVF

Convention has it that if you use a hyphen between stated grades, it applies to the overall coin, i.e. both sides are the same. Otherwise, as I'm sure I don't need to tell you!, it's a / with the obverse first and reverse second.

True, I wasn't paying attention and replying on the fly between jobs. Ok, so it's a decent VF, but still not gVF and only a full grade or so over. Therefore, the only question is, what would the price of a Fine coin relative to a decent VF be? A gap of over £5K in this instance seems reasonable given the absolute rarity of the item irrespective of whether you would personally want to pay £3-4K for a farthing in fine. £2K seems too cheap though.

If a coin is that rare would the price differential between grades be that great, and would it be more a case of do you want one or don't you.

That's the point, though if its authenticity was questionable, then you would have been better off steering clear altogether as that allegation would continue to hang over it into the future.

[declanwmagee 122]

1953 2+A Farthing - and I just won one!

£30, which is quite a lot for me, but a must have

[Peckris 579]

1953 2+A Farthing - and I just won one!

£30, which is quite a lot for me, but a must have

Well done Declan. Good specimen with lots of lustre. You're one up on me - once I got the proof I stopped looking for a currency strike.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Peckris

[1949threepence 3,367]

I'm having the same problem with the Obv 2 1903 Shilling. Since the recent descovery of the rare 2a every Obv 2 I've seen has been a 2a, does the Obv 2 even exist?

I don't think it does, Gary. Obverse 1 & 2a do, but not obverse 2 for 1903.

See Gouby's website.

[Gary D 76]

I'm having the same problem with the Obv 2 1903 Shilling. Since the recent descovery of the rare 2a every Obv 2 I've seen has been a 2a, does the Obv 2 even exist?

I don't think it does, Gary. Obverse 1 & 2a do, but not obverse 2 for 1903.

See Gouby's website.

Reading Gouby's site I take "1903 to 1906 - 3 Obverse dies" to mean that it does. So is the general concensus that it doesn't

[declanwmagee 122]

I'm having the same problem with the Obv 2 1903 Shilling. Since the recent descovery of the rare 2a every Obv 2 I've seen has been a 2a, does the Obv 2 even exist?

I don't think it does, Gary. Obverse 1 & 2a do, but not obverse 2 for 1903.

See Gouby's website.

Reading Gouby's site I take "1903 to 1906 - 3 Obverse dies" to mean that it does. So is the general concensus that it doesn't

Mr Groom's book only refers to 1 and 2a - not straight Obv 2

[Peter 615]

1953 2+A Farthing - and I just won one!

£30, which is quite a lot for me, but a must have

I can't say its a must have..I wouldn't know if I had one

Hope you liked your 1959 scottish 1/-

[DaveG38 405]

I'm having the same problem with the Obv 2 1903 Shilling. Since the recent descovery of the rare 2a every Obv 2 I've seen has been a 2a, does the Obv 2 even exist?

I don't think it does, Gary. Obverse 1 & 2a do, but not obverse 2 for 1903.

See Gouby's website.

Reading Gouby's site I take "1903 to 1906 - 3 Obverse dies" to mean that it does. So is the general concensus that it doesn't

Mr Groom's book only refers to 1 and 2a - not straight Obv 2

Declan,

All I can say is that I never came across any reference to obverse 2 being found on the 1903 shilling whilst researching the varieties book. However, I also never came across any references to varieties for the 1907 to 1910 series of shillings, yet an examination of a fair number of these showed that there are certainly differences between them for the same date. Mainly these relate to the shape of the legs of the 'R's in 'BRITT' and 'EDWARDUS', so I guess it may be possible that there is a obverse 2 for 1903.

[VickySilver 830]

Oh, I have to confess that I have two nice '03s and am too lazy to care about a micro-type. Guess ripe for being "cherrypicked" one day....

I still want to see a picture, or better yet an actual specimen, of the 1854 half sovereign.

Would not mind seeing a picture or reference pertaining to the 1945 currency silver 3d as well....

Thanks to Colin Cooke for giving similar information on the currency 1952 2/6 (may he rest in Peace).

[declanwmagee 122]

1953 2+A Farthing - and I just won one!

£30, which is quite a lot for me, but a must have

I can't say its a must have..I wouldn't know if I had one

Hope you liked your 1959 scottish 1/-

scarcer type 1 as well, Jake...

[Peter 615]

1953 2+A Farthing - and I just won one!

£30, which is quite a lot for me, but a must have

I can't say its a must have..I wouldn't know if I had one

Hope you liked your 1959 scottish 1/-

scarcer type 1 as well, Jake...

Only another 44 to go...I bought these as an investment parcel 20 years ago...well up there in the top 10...NOT.

I can only sell these to 52 year old Scotsmen so you can understand how weee the market is. Bake1978 is my Daaawg.

[Peckris 579]

1953 2+A Farthing - and I just won one!

£30, which is quite a lot for me, but a must have

I can't say its a must have..I wouldn't know if I had one

Hope you liked your 1959 scottish 1/-

scarcer type 1 as well, Jake...

Oh FFS , please don't tell me there's more than one variety of 1959S too!

[Peter 615]

1953 2+A Farthing - and I just won one!

£30, which is quite a lot for me, but a must have

I can't say its a must have..I wouldn't know if I had one

Hope you liked your 1959 scottish 1/-

scarcer type 1 as well, Jake...

Oh FFS , please don't tell me there's more than one variety of 1959S too!

I'm quietly going thru my remaining 44...and nr I pointing to a space isn't easy or even exiting..detached shamrock on pre 1860 farthings is...I now realise why my wife,kids and dog have left me downstairs surrounded by my coins.

I've just survived my 14 year olds sleep over (3 weeks after my 16 year olds)....I'm looking forward to their 21st

[Colin G. 147]

.detached shamrock on pre 1860 farthings is.

Ooh now we are talking!!!

[Peter 615]

.detached shamrock on pre 1860 farthings is.

Ooh now we are talking!!!

rubbing my knees as we talk

[declanwmagee 122]

Oh FFS , please don't tell me there's more than one variety of 1959S too!

Don't blame me, blame Mr Groom!