Earliest British dated coin

[petitioncrown 4]

SOLD AT BRADY AUCTION SPINKS 6 OCT 2011

posted on www.petitioncrown.com

The earliest dated British coin, Henry VIII, Tournai 1513 in the obverse legend

Henry VIII, Tournai Groat 1513 (under English rule, 1513-18), a coin described by H.Montagu at Sotheby, 1895, lot 749, 3.38g.

Obv. HENRIC. 8. DI. GRA. FRANCIE. ET. ANGLIE. REX.., Shield crowned between lis and lion passant ; Rev. CIVITAS TORNACENSIS .1.5.1.3 , Cross voided, fourchee, with three bars across each limb, in centre h within quatrefoil ; lis and lion alternately in angles (Rud. Suppl. 2, pl XII), of extreme rarity and the finest of only three specimen known.

From the Shepherd collection (lot 219)

(Hoc, Histoire Monétaire de Tournai, 204-6; Vanhoudt Atlas der Munten van België, G.418; de Mey Les Monnaies du Tournaisis, 167)

Edward John Shepherd, M.A.Sotheby 23 July 1885 lot 219 sold to Rollin (a dealer) for £20-1-0 'of extreme rarity, and the finest of three specimens known' no pedigree. the text just describes the coin.Rev.

PROVENANCE

Frank Brady 2011 lot 290

SNC May 1990, item 2521

Philippi, Glendining, 8 July 1970, lot 59

H.W. Morrieson, Sotheby, 20 November 1933, lot 225

H.Montagu, Sotheby, 18-22 November 1895, lot 749 £25.00

Shepherd lot 1885, lot 219

www.petitioncrown.com

[TomGoodheart 403]

Thanks GC. Good to see you here again!

[Peter 615]

It will be nice to see it on Ebay starting at 0.99p

[azda 979]

Here's one i found

[Peckris 579]

Here's one i found

I hate to say it Dave, but that looks decidedly suspect.

[azda 979]

Yes, i did think that to when comparing to petitioncrowns website. The dealers description is Groat o.J. (1505/1509), London. Spink 2258.although i'm no expert on hammered

Edited October 9, 2011 by azda

[Rob 3,152]

I'm afraid you are all at sea with this one Dave - that is a regular profile groat with a cross crosslet mark. Geoff's coin is this one, the Gros struck at Tournai following its capture in 1513 and dated 1513 in the reverse legend.

It was lot 290 in last week's Spink sale of the Brady collection of groats. Brady 290

I've done a bit of research going back to the 1760s and it appears from all sources that there are a total of 3 known.

The first reference was in Snelling where a coin was illustrated depicting this in the section devoted to "Coins struck by the English Princes in France from Henry IV to Henry VIII plate 2 no.26. The notes in this section record that there were only two known, one in the cabinet of the Duke of Devonshire and another formerly held by themselves and now in the collection of Mr Benjamin Bartlett. The illustration in Snelling shows that Brady 290 was not the same coin as the one depicted because the areas of weakness do not match.

Whether the coin illustrated in Snelling was that of the Duke of Devonshire or the second, I am not sure at present. However, Samuel Tyssen is known to have bought at the Bartlett sale in 1787 and I would suggest it is probable that the second coin is the same as in Tyssen's sale where it was lot 3087 and bought by Young for £11/11/-. Young was a dealer.

The next reference I have is the illustration in Ruding (3rd ed. 1840) Supplement pt.2 plate XII no.9 where it is clear that the picture is of a very good approximation to Brady 290 having a similar profile, and given the Snelling coin is completely different in shape the chances of 2 similarly irregular pieces is remote. Ruding is silent on the source of the coin illustrated as far as I can establish, which is unfortunate.

The provenance is not certain at this point as the next sale reference I can find for one of these coins is Cuff 2190 (1854) which was bought by Cureton, a dealer. Unfortunately my library has many holes prior to Montagu (1895) and so it will require further work to establish the various owners down the years. At the Cuff sale it was recorded as coming from the Thomas sale which by default usually means Thomas Thomas (Sotheby Feb.1844), however there is no lot description fitting this particular type of Tournai groat in the catalogue. The only Tournai groat is lot 169 where it is noted as coming from the Henderson cabinet (several sales 1818-30), but the Ruding reference is the relatively common pl.7 no.13 with the profile bust. It is possible that it could have been sold in Thomas' two sales of Foreign Coins in July the same year, or the cataloguer could have made a mistake with the reference. Alternatives listed in Manville & Robertson could be Rev Thomas 1793, Col. Thomas 1820 and Nathaniel Thomas in 1795 but Thomas Thomas would be the first choice. The Duke of Devonshire's collection was sold in 1844. I assume the BM has an example, but don't know where it would have come from, though they were active in the salerooms of the period.

Moving to the Montagu sale in 1895, the coin was purchased by Spink.

The provenance given in the opening post, which was mostly taken from the Spink catalogue, is wrong.

Morrieson 225 was a lot of 7 Henry VII groats with the anchor mark. Additionally he did not have a Tournai groat of this type. His only Tournai groat was a first type with the profile (lot 255). The only oddball from this period appears to have been a Perkin Warbeck groat in lot 235.

The Philippi sale gives a provenance of Ex Boyne 1896, Morrieson 1933, Shepherd, Montagu, Murdoch and Dr Carter. Morrieson is wrong, Boyne I cannot confirm, but was only a few months after Montagu, Shepherd is also given in the Montagu catalogue and Murdoch part 1 is a glaring omission in my library, so again can't confirm. The illustration confirms the coin as being the same.

I haven't had time to check the many sales in the frist half of the last century.

Make of this what you will, but it's a starting point.