Best UK Auction to Sell High-Grade Coins? Slabbed or Not?

[Coinery 1,152]

Hi, and thanks for troubling to look at this post!

Can anyone suggest from experience the best UK auction house for coin sellers? I would be looking at submitting 10-15K of British coins, around four times a year.

I have checked out some of the realised prices from London Coins and Lockdales, but obviously haven't got the full picture from that! On average do the realised prices ever come close to book prices, or am I dreaming on this one?

Also, a lot of questions I know, but do slabbed coins typically reasure the online/telephone bidders of auction houses enough that they realise better prices?

I'm very much green about the gills, but have discovered enough to realise that this forum is probably the best online solution to such questions.

Many thanks in advance, and many more questions to ask,

Stuart

[TomGoodheart 400]

Hi and welcome Stuart. The problem with your question is that different auction houses will have different advantages and disadvantages. Spink or Bonhams have international presence that London Coins or Lockdales might not command. The sorts of coins you're presenting will also be a factor. Are we talking hammered? Early milled? Modern?

Some auction houses sell £1M coins in one auction. Others will be lucky to do that in a year, so if you're aiming to offload £40-£60K of coins a year you'll need to be sure your market can bear it.

You'll perhaps have seen from tv shows like Cash in the Attic, Bargain Hunt and so on that auctions can have off days too! Sometimes you'll get little interest, but on others two buyers can send prices sky high!

And of course, there's the sellers' fees to pay. Remember hammer price is before deducting commission plus possibly photography fees and other little extras that can get sneaked in (and VAT of course!)

There are other ways to sell. For example most dealers will sell on your behalf, either buying a collection or selling on commission. If your dealer specialises in the types of coins you have, this could prove a better outlet. But dealers can take time to turn around stock, sometimes retaining coins for years before they sell.

As for slabbed coins, that also depends on your market. Most collectors here in the UK are just not bothered and many will buy with the intention of breaking the slab if they want the coin. Americans on the other hand appear to buy the slab and it's questionable how much attention they pay to the coin! In which case, who has slabbed and graded your coin will be a factor, some companies having a better reputation than others or being better known. And if your coins aren't already slabbed, you'll need to pay to have them entombed. A bit pointless if they are just going to get broken out again!

It would help if you can give us an idea of what coins you intend to sell, maybe a photo or two to establish grade (as "High" can be meaningful, or not, depending on the accuracy of the grading!) and number. For example the advice concerning selling ten coins for £1000 each will be different from if you want to sell 100 at £100 each!

And of course, I'm curious where these coins are coming from. If a large old collection then the advice will be very different from if you intend to buy your stock specifically to auction it!

Edited October 23, 2011 by TomGoodheart

[Peckris 579]

As Tom says, the coins in question will determine the best auction to select. Also, what he says about fees is also very germane. I'm not saying eBay is necessarily your solution, but for certain types of coin, the costs would be much lower.

This is one experience I had selling a lot a few years back at Greenslade Taylor Hunt in Taunton. The two lots went for £30 (hammer price) - I got a cheque for £17. Just a thought.

[1949threepence 3,367]

As Tom says, the coins in question will determine the best auction to select. Also, what he says about fees is also very germane. I'm not saying eBay is necessarily your solution, but for certain types of coin, the costs would be much lower.

This is one experience I had selling a lot a few years back at Greenslade Taylor Hunt in Taunton. The two lots went for £30 (hammer price) - I got a cheque for £17. Just a thought.

That's not far off a 50% handling fee

The phrase "Jesus wept" springs readily to mind. No offence to the religious.

[VickySilver 830]

Well there are so many variables as had been mentioned. It is possible they may sell better in the US of A and that a firm such as Heritage may not even charge you a sellers comission or may pay you 105%!!!This is not made up and quite true. Also, one point that has not been mentioned is the concept of critical mass.

If you have a number of 1k+ coins, if there are enough they may be perceived as a major collection and IMO possibly bring more money as there could be a tendency to bring more buyers; there also may be some lose of provenance if they are sold but a few at a time.

If sold in the USA, definately slab but if they are already slabbed and you are determined to sell them in London leave them in the slab as is done many times by Baldwin or St. James and to some degree DNW and Spink. I have never tried to negotiate seller fees in London so maybe others could pitch in....

[numismatist 2]

From what I see of slabbed Coins in the UK , the large auction houses still grade them as they would a loose coin ,and the grades they give seem to be far below what the slabbing companies give. Which as far as the UK market goes makes slabbed coins less desirable and I'm sure there is very little trust in the grades on slabbed coins, and also the buyer does not know what faults are hidden. Also there are many rumours that some slabbing companies give " special deals on grading " for some of their large high spending dealer customers, and I for one would always "smash the slab ! " so I could see for myself what I was getting.

[Rob 3,152]

From what I see of slabbed Coins in the UK , the large auction houses still grade them as they would a loose coin ,and the grades they give seem to be far below what the slabbing companies give. Which as far as the UK market goes makes slabbed coins less desirable and I'm sure there is very little trust in the grades on slabbed coins, and also the buyer does not know what faults are hidden. Also there are many rumours that some slabbing companies give " special deals on grading " for some of their large high spending dealer customers, and I for one would always "smash the slab ! " so I could see for myself what I was getting.

That's a pretty good summary of where we are with slabs.

The main problem as far as the US TPGs are concerned is their lack of knowledge, or their indifference regarding attribution. One of the regular people on the PCGS forum bought a proof Geo.III halfpenny from me. It came back as a currency MS62 despite complying with the full page description in Peck regarding the type. The devotion of many in the US to slabs means that the grade and attribution won't be queried. The TPG is the ultimate arbiter and I as a nobody must be wrong. It's no more than a business model that some subscribe to, but with recognisable faults that an open-eyed collector can see through.

For the initiator of this thread, do not expect higher prices from UK buyers just because a coin is slabbed. If slabbed by NGC or PCGS then it would appeal to US buyers more, but only if the number is exceptional for the coin type. If in doubt, don't bother, as you are unlikely to be only uncertain person as to whether slabbing adds value. Slabbing for protection has a rational basis for use, but paying someone for a numbered label and an opinion on the grade can rarely be worth the effort unless the coin is exceptional given the ever increasing number of slabs in the market place. I learned the hard way not to overpay based on grade having bought 2 or 3 MS65s with edge defects which were only seen once out of the slab.

[Peter 615]

From what I see of slabbed Coins in the UK , the large auction houses still grade them as they would a loose coin ,and the grades they give seem to be far below what the slabbing companies give. Which as far as the UK market goes makes slabbed coins less desirable and I'm sure there is very little trust in the grades on slabbed coins, and also the buyer does not know what faults are hidden. Also there are many rumours that some slabbing companies give " special deals on grading " for some of their large high spending dealer customers, and I for one would always "smash the slab ! " so I could see for myself what I was getting.

That's a pretty good summary of where we are with slabs.

The main problem as far as the US TPGs are concerned is their lack of knowledge, or their indifference regarding attribution. One of the regular people on the PCGS forum bought a proof Geo.III halfpenny from me. It came back as a currency MS62 despite complying with the full page description in Peck regarding the type. The devotion of many in the US to slabs means that the grade and attribution won't be queried. The TPG is the ultimate arbiter and I as a nobody must be wrong. It's no more than a business model that some subscribe to, but with recognisable faults that an open-eyed collector can see through.

For the initiator of this thread, do not expect higher prices from UK buyers just because a coin is slabbed. If slabbed by NGC or PCGS then it would appeal to US buyers more, but only if the number is exceptional for the coin type. If in doubt, don't bother, as you are unlikely to be only uncertain person as to whether slabbing adds value. Slabbing for protection has a rational basis for use, but paying someone for a numbered label and an opinion on the grade can rarely be worth the effort unless the coin is exceptional given the ever increasing number of slabs in the market place. I learned the hard way not to overpay based on grade having bought 2 or 3 MS65s with edge defects which were only seen once out of the slab.

Beware the edge defects....I fancied a particular Victorian Bun farthing....but it had a small edge knock.It sold for just under £100.

2 weeks later it was CGS85 and on sale for 50% more (knock hidden ).

[Mat 2]

London Coins usually uphold the grade given by CGS Uk slabbed coins and will go with the slabbed grade for the description. With PGS and the other US ones they will usually go with 'Slabbed MS 62, we grade about EF'

Who ever you go with, use your submission value as power, I usually manage to get 8% with w&w, 0-5% on a number of other well known ones, 15% Spink (only tried once) and never managed to move on London coins standard 10%. But beware you need to be pushy and drive the hard bargan with the main ones or you will not get! The smaller auction houses try to take a more friendly approach and be honest with them, they will appreciate it and usually return the favour.

[VickySilver 830]

Which is certainly another factor. As stated Heritage may even on more valuable bits charge you (ie credit you) a -[minus] 5% so that a lot that sells for 1000 USD will get you 1050 minus handling....

The type of collection and your location are really tantamount to making such a decision. An example I can think of is a PCGS proof66 Gothic Crown may go for 30-40,000 or more USD when slabbed and sold by Heritage but only bring 8-10k Pounds when sold in the UK - unless American bidders can be enticed to participate!

[Peter 615]

London Coins usually uphold the grade given by CGS Uk slabbed coins and will go with the slabbed grade for the description. With PGS and the other US ones they will usually go with 'Slabbed MS 62, we grade about EF'

Who ever you go with, use your submission value as power, I usually manage to get 8% with w&w, 0-5% on a number of other well known ones, 15% Spink (only tried once) and never managed to move on London coins standard 10%. But beware you need to be pushy and drive the hard bargan with the main ones or you will not get! The smaller auction houses try to take a more friendly approach and be honest with them, they will appreciate it and usually return the favour.

London coins are CGS aren't they?

[Nick 329]

London Coins usually uphold the grade given by CGS Uk slabbed coins and will go with the slabbed grade for the description. With PGS and the other US ones they will usually go with 'Slabbed MS 62, we grade about EF'

Who ever you go with, use your submission value as power, I usually manage to get 8% with w&w, 0-5% on a number of other well known ones, 15% Spink (only tried once) and never managed to move on London coins standard 10%. But beware you need to be pushy and drive the hard bargan with the main ones or you will not get! The smaller auction houses try to take a more friendly approach and be honest with them, they will appreciate it and usually return the favour.

London coins are CGS aren't they?

Not entirely, but there's only a sheet of Bronco between them.

[Coinery 1,152]

Hi, and thank-you to you all for your time and input. I’ve been away and have only just found the time to digest and respond to your advice. If anyone has any thoughts on the below I’d be extremely grateful.

TomGoodheart:

Many, many, thanks! Can I just ask you, and all, with regards to slabbed coins, that if the American market is the most responsive market for slabs, would I be correct in thinking that CGS would likely be a second or maybe third choice for them? Or would you say the overseas market is intelligent enough to assimilate the differences between the grading scales, and care little whether it’s a UK or USA TPG company that does the dirty deed? Are CGS well respected abroad, their rates for entombing seem to be significantly below the charges levied by the other American biggies?

The types of coins I’d be looking at selling would, without sounding too cavalier and merciless, be any coin I could make some money on, so includes the full spectrum from Shortcross to EDVII, typically £100-£500, though I have sold a few £1000+ coins (I really am green, I’m just lucky...and experimenting always).

I want to reassure you I love coins with a passion (I don’t need to explain the magic to you folks). However, I discovered around 10-15 years ago that the only way I could have a proper look at any coin was to buy the damn thing and hold it for a while. Circumstances always dictated that I should sell it again (of course) but, with a lot of luck (and a few mistakes along the way), I began to consistently clear something around 25-50% on a coin, thus the beginnings of a small collection (that I didn’t have to sell) was born. I guess I am just wishing to continue in the same ethos, but wish to stretch myself and chance to look at better and better coins, whilst enjoying the participation in a fascinating art – all above board with HMRC of course!

So, no big collection, I’m afraid!

VickySilver:

Also, huge thanks to you...so, slabs for the Americans! Do you have any thoughts on the above re: CGS-UK? Have you any experiences that suggest the Americans shy away from CGS in favour of NGS or PCGS etc.? Does the CGS stock sell with equal or any strength, or am I really looking at dealing with PCGS if I’m to be getting the best out of the likes of Heritage and the American Market?

Numismatist & Rob:

Thanks to you both as well! As already raised above, do you think then that CGS would be a non-starter for the American market?

I guess the place I’m at with this so far is...I would not be interested in buying slabs for myself (I really enjoy the process of crawling over Britannia with an eyeglass), but I am toying with the idea of slabbing stock to increase its marketability to those who either lack confidence in their own grading, or have too little experience to ‘risk’ their money on internet stock and, equally, do not have the patience to learn these things slowly. I 100% take on board your comments and good advice re the hidden edge (Thanks to you too Peter).

Mat:

Great advice re the ‘hard deal’ and percentages. But just out of interest, what scales are we talking when we talk large & small houses? London Coins has in excess of 2000 lots, for example, would this be considered large scale? What would be considered small? Really sorry to appear so naive on this, but I honestly am standing on the bottom rung of the ladder, and information is gold to me at the minute.

So, there ‘tis! Many thanks from me, once again!

[VickySilver 830]

Yes, CGS is pretty much of an "also ran" in the USA, and not really known or respected because they are not. They do not have the same cache value as PCGS or NGC. And that is not to say they are not relatively conservative graders either. Edge problems are not an issue now as both US TPGs use platic tines within the inserts to hold the coin. IMO, they would not be necessarily that great for hammered coinage, and as Rob says are a bit problematic with some of the earlier milled.

I had issue with some of their grading of matte proofs as well, but usually relatively consistent graders of Vicky and up (more recent). I am wondering if lots are only a few hundred pounds each if slabbing is worthwhile though. I should think if you are moving some tens of thousands worth of coins that the house you choose would not bargain a rate for you to fill their sale??I am thinking if it comes to selling some choicer bits that I might not choose Heritage as I have not had all the much luck with Spink. Doubtless there are sellers with much more experience on these boards though.

Good luck regardless of which avenue you pursue.

[RLC35 288]

Vicky,

You mentioned Spink Auctions. What commission charge did they end up charging you? I have never approached them, so I don't have feel for their pricing. I have talked to Baldwins. They say they will grade, photograph and sell the item for 17%, which includes VAT.

[VickySilver 830]

Recall that it ended up being about 25%, but has been about 5 years. Should not have let those proof Wreaths go....Oh, well ce la vie!