Northumberland Shillinmg 1763 Fake ?

[numismatist 2]

This is Lot 589 DNW 9th December 2010 slightely weakly struck in centre otherwise very fine £300-£350 fetched £330 plus premium. It has the faults the chinese fakes have..Light scratch marks from mouth of king, light scratch below kings ear.Top of second "G" in GEORGIVS from blocked die?

(Many of the letters to left of portrait on the 1763 Shillings are often from I presume a blocked die, but normally the second "G" survives) and very weak reverse centre. Photos on the net condemn coins showing these faults, so is this a fake ?

[Peckris 579]

This is Lot 589 DNW 9th December 2010 slightely weakly struck in centre otherwise very fine £300-£350 fetched £330 plus premium. It has the faults the chinese fakes have..Light scratch marks from mouth of king, light scratch below kings ear.Top of second "G" in GEORGIVS from blocked die?

(Many of the letters to left of portrait on the 1763 Shillings are often from I presume a blocked die, but normally the second "G" survives) and very weak reverse centre. Photos on the net condemn coins showing these faults, so is this a fake ?

If those identifiers are EXACTLY the same as known fakes, then it stands a very high chance of being one. I would have thought DNW staff would be more expert than that, though if carefully placed as a single item, it could well have slipped through. One chance of its being genuine is if it turned out to be the very coin the Chinese fakes were cast from, but I simply don't know what happens to their source material.

Good research and spot.

[azda 981]

This is Lot 589 DNW 9th December 2010 slightely weakly struck in centre otherwise very fine £300-£350 fetched £330 plus premium. It has the faults the chinese fakes have..Light scratch marks from mouth of king, light scratch below kings ear.Top of second "G" in GEORGIVS from blocked die?

(Many of the letters to left of portrait on the 1763 Shillings are often from I presume a blocked die, but normally the second "G" survives) and very weak reverse centre. Photos on the net condemn coins showing these faults, so is this a fake ?

Maybe you should also inform DNW of your thoughts?

[Colin G. 147]

This is Lot 589 DNW 9th December 2010 slightely weakly struck in centre otherwise very fine £300-£350 fetched £330 plus premium. It has the faults the chinese fakes have..Light scratch marks from mouth of king, light scratch below kings ear.Top of second "G" in GEORGIVS from blocked die?

(Many of the letters to left of portrait on the 1763 Shillings are often from I presume a blocked die, but normally the second "G" survives) and very weak reverse centre. Photos on the net condemn coins showing these faults, so is this a fake ?

If those identifiers are EXACTLY the same as known fakes, then it stands a very high chance of being one. I would have thought DNW staff would be more expert than that, though if carefully placed as a single item, it could well have slipped through. One chance of its being genuine is if it turned out to be the very coin the Chinese fakes were cast from, but I simply don't know what happens to their source material.

Good research and spot.

Rob has an example of a coin that was used as the original that fakes were cast from

[numismatist 2]

If they can make them so good, its very worrying to wonder , just what else they make. I've seen the USA Dollars etc which are pretty crude and base metal, but also seen photos of pretty scary Charles 1st Hammered Shillings. Suppose they could be making 100's of differant coin types ? These Northumberland shillings must be very easy to pass muster unless very detailed points to look for are known . Does anyone know if their is a good photographic record posted anywhere ,of just what well made fakes are out there.

[Peckris 579]

If they can make them so good, its very worrying to wonder , just what else they make. I've seen the USA Dollars etc which are pretty crude and base metal, but also seen photos of pretty scary Charles 1st Hammered Shillings. Suppose they could be making 100's of differant coin types ? These Northumberland shillings must be very easy to pass muster unless very detailed points to look for are known . Does anyone know if their is a good photographic record posted anywhere ,of just what well made fakes are out there.

A master listing of photographic blowups would be a good start. The trouble is, it would be out of date even before it was published.

I suppose our own collections - if purchased before the Millennial dawn of Chinese forgeries - would be some reassurance to us, and a very minor provenance though without proof unless we got and kept receipts (which I usually didn't).

[seuk 85]

I think this is as good a place as any to list counterfeits. There are of course more than one factory operating in China (and elsewhere). Some make high quality fakes others low. In some cases I suspect the same masters are used for both.

I once bought a Danish 1771 skilling in high quality on ebay. Its one of the most common Danish coins but much collected and rare varities reach faily good prices. A year or two later my coin was reproduced in China!: http://www.jinghuashei.com/html/product/100929235950752.html (of UK coins he only have the 1822 crown for sale at the moment - however in two different grades )

They made the same mistake as with the George III halfcrown - turning the reverse upside down. I'm pretty sure they never had the coin in hand if so it must had been before I bough it. Its more likely that they simply used the ebay auction picture and perhaps a lower grade coin in order to have the size and weight fairly accurate.

[Peckris 579]

I once bought a Danish 1771 skilling in high quality on ebay. Its one of the most common Danish coins but much collected and rare varities reach faily good prices. A year or two later my coin was reproduced in China!: http://www.jinghuashei.com/html/product/100929235950752.html (of UK coins he only have the 1822 crown for sale at the moment - however in two different grades )

And the toned one with no grade advertised (getting on for VF I'd say) is in better state of preservation than the one described UNC - which has clearly been cleaned. That looks more like eBay tomfoolery than fakery.

[seuk 85]

I once bought a Danish 1771 skilling in high quality on ebay. Its one of the most common Danish coins but much collected and rare varities reach faily good prices. A year or two later my coin was reproduced in China!: http://www.jinghuashei.com/html/product/100929235950752.html (of UK coins he only have the 1822 crown for sale at the moment - however in two different grades )

And the toned one with no grade advertised (getting on for VF I'd say) is in better state of preservation than the one described UNC - which has clearly been cleaned. That looks more like eBay tomfoolery than fakery.

I've bought two of each 'grade' so it will be interesting to see if there's any difference at all He's also selling the 1818 halfcrown - listed under Germany! (guess its the Hanoverian connection )

[azda 981]

Here's a Northumberland Shilling i've just found, same scratch at 3 O'clock running from the mouth to the rim

The grade looks somewhat better though than this topic starter. Weight 6.01g

[TomGoodheart 407]

Here's a Northumberland Shilling i've just found, same scratch at 3 O'clock running from the mouth to the rim

The grade looks somewhat better though than this topic starter. Weight 6.01g

There's also a very similar scratch running down the neck towards 7 o'clock that just touches the hair and similar weaknesses on the tops of the ET of AT.ET and [MB.F.] ET [ If this were a hammered coin those features would lead me to think it's a replica but with milled .. could be coincidental die weakness? The scratches however, well, any near identical scratch kinda strengthens the replica idea, doesn't it?

Good spot Dave. Hope you didn't pay too much, LOL!

[azda 981]

I never bought it Tom, was just posting the picture to show how it coincides with the topic starter, but would you believe i've just spotted another, this time without scratch as far as i can tell.

Picture to follow, am oot shopping with the Frau :-/

[azda 981]

2nd one found today

[azda 981]

An enlargement of the 1st one, hopefully can see the details a bit better

[azda 981]

Looking at the both OBVs now, the tops of the GEORGIVS are missing in the same places, so is the topic starter coin picture

Edited November 5, 2011 by azda

[TomGoodheart 407]

Looking at the both OBVs now, the tops of the GEORGIVS are missing in the same places, so is the topic starter coin picture

And all appear to have a scratch along the neck on the edge of the hair ... very suspicious. And worrying.

[azda 981]

Looking at the both OBVs now, the tops of the GEORGIVS are missing in the same places, so is the topic starter coin picture

And all appear to have a scratch along the neck on the edge of the hair ... very suspicious. And worrying.

And have now found my 3rd, a good weekends work, but very worrying 3 fakes have been seen in just 1 weekend

[Nick 329]

An enlargement of the 1st one, hopefully can see the details a bit better

And here is another that looks very similar: scratch on neck, scatch in front of top lip and even has the same obverse rim nick at around 7 o'clock.

[Accumulator 52]

An enlargement of the 1st one, hopefully can see the details a bit better

And here is another that looks very similar: scratch on neck, scatch in front of top lip and even has the same obverse rim nick at around 7 o'clock.

Baldwins, DNW, that's frightening.... We're not talking eBay here!

[numismatist 2]

Very worrying, obviously a lot of these about, so ringing alarm bells. I dont think a single one

would have ever been condemned by anyone as they are pretty good. I worry what else is out there.

They must be Die-Struck, strange to leave such obvious tell tale marks, which must be on the die

and could easily be polished out.

[numismatist 2]

Looking at "Azda's" No 3 (great photos by the way Azda) This is on the Ebay completed items

list of ...laura_5268....from Hong Kong...Item no 2509 2275 9512..Lots of nice condition early

foreign Crown Size sold there, looking very cheap, so assume all those are Chinese fakes.

I bought my "fake" 13/03/2010 Ebay Item no 2705 4351 8661 for £310.00 from ...antony.0177...

from Lancashire. He refuses to supply his address. Ebay say their policy stops them giving

out any seller details to anyone after 60 days has passed (great for any con artists on ebay)

I got onto Ebay "Trust and safety" but they are not the slightest bit interested. I gave them

details of ..laura_5268...who has sold numerous 1763 fakes, but they wont take action.

I've reported the fraud to the Police (via ..actionfraud..)but I'm pretty certain I will see

my first "flying pig" before I hear from them.

My "fake" I understand was sold to..antony.0177..by...xxxcoinsxxx...from Warwickshire, but they

were removed from Ebay about 27/03/2010. If anyone knows who they are I would like their details

to give to the Police as all I have are ebay names.

I emailed DNW by the way ,about my original post, but no reply so far

[Rob 3,190]

This is Lot 589 DNW 9th December 2010 slightely weakly struck in centre otherwise very fine £300-£350 fetched £330 plus premium. It has the faults the chinese fakes have..Light scratch marks from mouth of king, light scratch below kings ear.Top of second "G" in GEORGIVS from blocked die?

(Many of the letters to left of portrait on the 1763 Shillings are often from I presume a blocked die, but normally the second "G" survives) and very weak reverse centre. Photos on the net condemn coins showing these faults, so is this a fake ?

Mine has the defective O and the R is just broken. The Gs are both intact, but the first one only has a thin top to it. The centre of the reverse is weaker than the rest, but not particularly so with all the garter detail present. That's on a better than EF coin.

[azda 981]

An enlargement of the 1st one, hopefully can see the details a bit better

And here is another that looks very similar: scratch on neck, scatch in front of top lip and even has the same obverse rim nick at around 7 o'clock.

Baldwins, DNW, that's frightening.... We're not talking eBay here!

Yes, but the Baldwins sale was also in Hong Kong, that says it all. It might be harder to spot an original these days than the fakes .

Edited November 7, 2011 by azda

[GEKO 0]

Hi everyone.

Just wanted to share this

Just got a package today.

Purchased 2 coins off from ebay

a 1763 shilling and a 1889 straits settlements 50 cent

I pretty much spend the whole day researching because everything about this is fishy.

Here are some high resolution pictures of both specimen. Sorry for them being rotated you have to save them and rotate in the windows image viewer.

http://imageshack.us/a/img89/8387/dscf2163lxc.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img705/3880/dscf2160ub.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img341/1037/dscf2165k.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img441/1071/dscf2164k.jpg

these coins have been purchased from the user

meloyqictp6 registered with an ebay canada account new member as of now and when i came across his 2 listings i thought i will give it a shot. They dont look to bad.... Well when the seller mailed out the items i checked the tracking and the package came from beijing china.

Alarm flags rising !!!! I asked him why and his explanation was that his son is there and sells his coins for him. Ok i just got my package today...

and it just does not seem right.

So i did some research on ebay itself and found 2 other ebay accounts of which i am certain that the same person is behind them

One is

forsev2009 he sold the 1889 50 cents from straight settlement about one month before i bought it and looking at the sold history this guy sold numerous copies of coins for relative high dollar amount also this person is registered since 2009 which is scary.... due to the fact that he probably ripped of a lot of people. Some negative feedback also indicate counterfeit currency being sold from this account.

the other account is

keviwlan also registered on ebay canada he sold the 1763 shilling

this one ha. ITS THE EXACT SAME COIN IN THE PICTURE THAT I RECEIVED.... and it was sold on Apr 22, 2013 16:28:23 PDT

i bought mine on May 09, 2013 07:30:08 PDT

I must say these 2 coins are pretty damn good fakes i think they would fool a lot of people.

If i had bought these from a ''reputable'' source i probably would not even question at least for a while until its too late...

While doing my research i found out that a lot of the coins offered for full retail online also appear to be fakes this is a very worrying fact.

Anyway more facts to the coins

The weight and size of both coins is right

The 1763 has the straight scratch by the lip which is very very faint in this case and hard to notice but if you look closely you will see it.

It appears to have been rubbed with something so surface hairlines are evident ( maybe to make it harder to certify because judging by the details if the coin has no surface wear then well its obvious that it is a fake) i also think it has been slightly polished and then artificially retoned. It appears to be made out of silver its color is dull.

For the lack of detail on some spots i did not see any rubbing points which normally would be present.

The reverse star glow light thing around the cross in the center is weakly struck which is common with the fakes.

The edge reeding does not fully connect to each corner side of the rim

And the most evident fact about this specimen is that observed under strong light it shows a cartwheel effect which for a milled coin is impossible to have

It was obviously DIE STRUCK !!!!

Now lets go over to the 1889 50 cents from the straits settlement.

THAT is a hard one.

I think that if i would mail it in to NGC it might actually pass as genuine i am not sure about PCGS since they are conservative but oh well...

Ok same as with the other specimen rubbed with surface hairlines slight luster still present with cartwheel, The edge reeding does not fully connect to each corner side of the rim and is irregular in its spacing.

The details on the obverse are pretty good but no rubbing points are present.

On the reverse identifying this one as a fake is easier. The beading appears to be too weakly struck. There is this weird tie like shaped ''scratch''

indention on the right side next to the 50 clearly visible

Supposedly the CENTS on the reverse should be more to the left. Fakes have the CENTS more to the right

On some fakes the 50 is placed higher but in this case matches with the original

And that is pretty much it.

I would like to hear your opinion on these as well

One thing that bothers me are the contact marks on both specimen it actually looks like these where in circulation before or did they even fake this ??

I hope with this post i could help someone when deciding to buy these kind of coins

[GEKO 0]

I also believe that the ebay user laura_5268 is the same person behind these fakes