We devalue our currency to base metal + paper

[petitioncrown 4]

Politicians and our leaders are not just trying to find ways to solve todays problems they are facing the mismanagement of 40+ years of different leaders. We cannot turn the clock back, but the US has to answer the world by taking us of the Gold Standard which just allowed governments to print money when required.

The Euro system does not allow for countries to print money as they wish, Europe has no financial safety valve + no political union; it was failed to disaster in the beginning.

The inability of nations to grasp the change we are just beginning to experience since 2008 is creating a stress that will be with us for many years.

During the last century we had two world wars and had a number of conflicts that still haunt us. We moved ahead with technology and took a break from the classics. We as people of the world need to know where we came from or we will have no were to go, it is not just the IPad.

Unfortunately the stress we are beginning to experience once again has in the past only been dealt with in the end by ‘conflict of arms’.

During the last years the pressure from the people to have our politicians give the nations a richer life without working has created the immense debt burden, nobody considered the ability to repay debt.

Considering this position how do you explain to the people that you have been earning x and in reality you have been living at x++.

Scan Europe, from Greece, Spain, and Italy to most countries except Germany that through history learned that they should only spend what they earned. It should not be forgotten that after the Second World War ‘Marshall Plan’ helped rebuild Germany, we cannot take away the fact Germany worked to create a strong country.

[ChKy 61]

Politicians and our leaders are not just trying to find ways to solve todays problems they are facing the mismanagement of 40+ years of different leaders. We cannot turn the clock back, but the US has to answer the world by taking us of the Gold Standard which just allowed governments to print money when required.

The Euro system does not allow for countries to print money as they wish, Europe has no financial safety valve + no political union; it was failed to disaster in the beginning.

The inability of nations to grasp the change we are just beginning to experience since 2008 is creating a stress that will be with us for many years.

During the last century we had two world wars and had a number of conflicts that still haunt us. We moved ahead with technology and took a break from the classics. We as people of the world need to know where we came from or we will have no were to go, it is not just the IPad.

Unfortunately the stress we are beginning to experience once again has in the past only been dealt with in the end by 'conflict of arms'.

During the last years the pressure from the people to have our politicians give the nations a richer life without working has created the immense debt burden, nobody considered the ability to repay debt.

Considering this position how do you explain to the people that you have been earning x and in reality you have been living at x++.

Scan Europe, from Greece, Spain, and Italy to most countries except Germany that through history learned that they should only spend what they earned. It should not be forgotten that after the Second World War 'Marshall Plan' helped rebuild Germany, we cannot take away the fact Germany worked to create a strong country.

Well... Voltaire said that every paper money will be reduced to a certain value at some point. And that value is zero. No matter the currency is called: Euro, DM, Pound, Yen, Yuan, Lira or what so ever.

Nearly every country on this planet (including my home Germany) earned X and spend x+++ That was payed by inflation/money printing. The only difference is how fast they spend the money. The currency of western Germany was one of the most stable FIAT-currencies in the world. Nether the less... During its 53 years existence the DM lost 80% of its purchasing power.

In order to analyse monetary unions without political union look at the Latin Monetary Union & Scandinavian Monetary Union. But it is difficult to compare. Different times, different people and different monetary system. Finally they were destroyed by the breakout of WWI.

[Peter 615]

The credit farce had to stop.

Cars only £99 a month they said....Joe public said oooh thats cheap. 28% apr I said on a product that devalues at 50%+ over the 1st two years.

Joe public said my neighbours got one so I must have one etc etc etc. I was walking through Town over the weekend and Mrs Peter and I discussed who won't be here in 6 months time & I wonder which credit / extended warrenty outfit will go pop after the Xmas rush (Comet being bought for £2...they got in early).

Come the riots when Tracey can't afford to have those glorious wings tatooed above her butt and her boobs pumped full of plastic so she can attract Steve in Magaluf where they have borrowed at 25% to get there.You will be glad you have your coins stashed away.

[davidrj 194]

Food for thought here

[coin watch 1]

Food for thought here

The simple word for this is GREED, one of the deadly 7! As a collector I can see this entering our hobby, but I feel I'm ok because as a hobby collector my interest is in the hobby itself. OK I might not be able to purchase the better coins in the near future because of these GREEDY gits but I know my knowledge and patience will see me ok. Never been religious....but then, hmmm

[scott 144]

it is no surprise then that germany were still using silver until 1974, as were the french then, where we ditched that metal in 48, incedently the australians also carried on until they decimalised too, the USA dropped it in 64 (even though they did use it instead of nickel in 42-45 because it was more common :/).

that is the problem, governements boorow more they earn, while banks on thier computers add random 0's where are governments borrowing money from? they all do it, there is not magical unlimited money.

as for the euro, that was a stupid idea, prices in europe acctually went up when they introduced that and you got 2 countrys basically proping up half of europe, the 3rd strongest euro economy is italy, which is also skint. the main problem is indeed greed, but i feel the governments sending money to countries like pakistan where like 5% of the people pay tax, let them sort it out themselves, spend the money on jobs over here ffs.

[Red Riley 2]

it is no surprise then that germany were still using silver until 1974, as were the french then, where we ditched that metal in 48, incedently the australians also carried on until they decimalised too, the USA dropped it in 64 (even though they did use it instead of nickel in 42-45 because it was more common :/).

that is the problem, governements boorow more they earn, while banks on thier computers add random 0's where are governments borrowing money from? they all do it, there is not magical unlimited money.

as for the euro, that was a stupid idea, prices in europe acctually went up when they introduced that and you got 2 countrys basically proping up half of europe, the 3rd strongest euro economy is italy, which is also skint. the main problem is indeed greed, but i feel the governments sending money to countries like pakistan where like 5% of the people pay tax, let them sort it out themselves, spend the money on jobs over here ffs.

We abandoned silver because the cost of the war meant that we could no longer afford it, the Germans had Marshall aid and arguably the French spent less on the war because they weren't in it long enough! And actually Winston Churchill's attempt to get us back onto the gold standard in the 1920s itself nearly bankrupted the country...

I would contend that at base, the Euro is/was a good idea (did you ever go to that bit of Europe where France runs into Belgium which runs into Luxembourg, Germany and Holland - all within 20 miles, separate currencies there must have been a nightmare!) but without some kind of political and fiscal union it just isn't going to work and we're copping the fallout from this right now. To make matters worse the Greeks lied to get into the Euro and the Italians have never had the political will to sort out the corruption and abuses which go on within their borders (incidentally they are the 3rd largest economy not the 3rd strongest). This might at least force them to grasp the nettle but I wouldn't bank on it.

I can't say I necessarily agree with your final point, although Pakistan is perhaps not the best example. Developing nations are humungously inefficient and massively corrupt but to withdraw development aid would not simply lead to hardship but potentially to actual starvation, so however inefficient no developed nation wants to be accused of causing a famine.

Interesting times...

[Generic Lad 25]

Fiat money is never a good idea, real money needs to be a physical commodity with intrinsic value to really work. The problem with the notion of the Euro and any other currency/trade union out there is those that are stronger end up having to pay for the mistakes that the weaker economies have. Had the Greeks kept their Drachma, their debt crisis would be lessened in every place that wasn't Greece. But since Greece became part of the EU, the entire continent of Europe takes a hit when Greece fails.

The bigger problem is that rather than evaluate each country's bonds, most banks are allowed to count any Eurozone bond (along with US/UK bonds) as a cash equivalent. For example, if a bank is required to have $100 for every $500 it loans out, it might really only have $25 in cash and the other $75 in European bonds with Greek, Irish and Portuguese mixed in. Since having a lot of cash doesn't do the bank much good since they don't earn interest on it, there is a greater tendency for them to go with higher-yield bonds. After all, if you had a bunch of money to invest would you rather sit on it with 0% interest rate and call it cash, or put it up for bonds for a 3% interest rate and call it cash?

If we want to have a stable economy, we need a sane banking system and hard currency. Sure, we might not see the explosive growth that you see with worthless money, but we wouldn't have much of a crash either. Its a sad day when saving money is taking a guaranteed loss due to inflation here in the US, the stock market is too much of a mess and property is in too much of a mess. Honestly everyone in the US (and the west in general) needs to have physical assets, not because they are the best performing and not because you are going to get rich buying gold and silver, but because of necessity.

[declanwmagee 122]

We cannot rely on the people who got us into this mess to get us out of it. The solution has to be bottom up. Think local, think essential, and before we expect the banks to stop expecting unearned income, we have to think like that first.

Forget savings, forget trying to find returns on investment - that's just another way of saying "how do I get extra money without earning it?".

Think about it. Prices of things do not rise. Money gets smaller. A gallon of fuel is still the same size as it was when it was a quid. It's the money that has got smaller. Thinking you're doing well because something you bought is worth more now than when you bought it means you have bought into the illusion of fiat money. I remember seeing a T-shirt in the 1980s that said "I don't give a sh*t how much your house is worth". Made me chuckle then, but now it makes a lot more sense too.

Money is a medium of exchange, nothing more. It is nothing on it's own. So save by all means, but for goodness sake, don't save money! It's bits of meaningless paper. Buy stuff you need. Buy land, food, fuel, pay off debts. Make sure the things you really rely on are top notch. No point in having a wad of printed paper if your car doesn't work. Get a new car. Get a new laptop. Sort out your essential tools. For us that means having a good chainsaw, full bottles of propane, a full freezer. Stuff you need will always have the same value, and if you end up with a garage full of tins of beans, then great, think of it as one step closer to retirement. You'll never have to buy beans again. Once you've got everything you'll ever need, you won't have to work. And the minute you don't have to work you extricate yourself from the ridiculous system they have built for you.

The system isn't broken, it's working exactly as it was supposed to. It wasn't supposed to work for you!

[Peter 615]

Declan

Invest in a double decker and we will rent a floor off you

Because I haven't been busy for the past 18 months I've invested in a 3 way ladder and expanded by tool collection 5 fold.I'm often seen lurking near DIY outlets and builders merchants.

We've had a rethink on the ratrace and I've taken a few steps back.I went self employed 7 years ago to ease up but for the first 5 years a weeks holiday and no sickness plus working most weekends was order of the day.

Crisis...what crisis...tomorrow I have to do about 2 hrs work and make a few calls.Walk the dog,make my wife lunch,confirm a purchase for a few coins and put a couple more shelves up in the study.

I'm beyond worrying about savings and pensions and have even just got hold of an allotment and have never been happier.

[scott 144]

real money should be the only money, problem with lending and profiteering is, there should be a limit to the ammount of money in the world, which there never seems to be, and here are a couple more things.

go over your overdraft etc, the bank CHARGES YOU EVEN MORE. now tell me how this works? if someone has no money they have NO MONEY charging them for having no money just makes it worse, and then creates a debt spiral. same goes for loans, never understood the point in loaning money around like it is no tommorrow.

what conserns me is that if a single person acts likes governments do with money, they would be bankrupt. granted you need to put money into things to get stuff out, and that is how it was done in the USA in the 30's and should be done again, instead the government just cuts everything and charges more tax,then does nothing with it.

[Peter 615]

real money should be the only money, problem with lending and profiteering is, there should be a limit to the ammount of money in the world, which there never seems to be, and here are a couple more things.

go over your overdraft etc, the bank CHARGES YOU EVEN MORE. now tell me how this works? if someone has no money they have NO MONEY charging them for having no money just makes it worse, and then creates a debt spiral. same goes for loans, never understood the point in loaning money around like it is no tommorrow.

what conserns me is that if a single person acts likes governments do with money, they would be bankrupt. granted you need to put money into things to get stuff out, and that is how it was done in the USA in the 30's and should be done again, instead the government just cuts everything and charges more tax,then does nothing with it.

I bought my 1st house in 1987 and boy was it hard to get a mortgage of 3x salary (plus I put down a 10% deposit).Money wasn't easy to get hold of.If you have no money you should act accordingly and restrain from going into a debt spiral and live within your means.

The coalition have years of labour ruin to sort out and no one really has a 100% soloution.Read your Daily Mail

[scott 144]

the problem is the debt spiral is caused by greed.

easy enough staying within your means, if you live within your means when you say, buy something which is monthly payments then you cant because of jobs, then bank pile charges on top? i see that as stupid.

it is all greed. the USA stopped themselves going bankrupt by raising the ammount of debt they are allowed no? thats silly

[Red Riley 2]

You can understand why governments do it. They are under pressure to provide better services more efficiently, but when they say (OK, they don't but they should do) 'right that'll be 2p on the basic rate of income tax', there are howls of protest. We get the governments we deserve, it is us the stupid electorate who always wilfully fail to understand that you can't have your cake and eat it.

[declanwmagee 122]

Good for you, Peter! Allotments are great! We have two, and the Pwincess looks after other people's too, as part of her self-employment portfolio. Your time is the only thing that is truly yours, and if there is a great conspiracy it is the theft of time from the masses. Contented and happy peasants are not a good business model, and everything's a business model.

What we have to remember is that governments, regardless of what colour their rosette, have become the legislative arm of the financial industry. Debt is what the banks sell, whether it's to people, companies, or countries. No debt = no sales. Anyone with even the most basic grasp of the situation can see that mathematical inevitability of something having to give, and the culprit is compound interest.

We have to get rid of fractional reserve banking. If you want to store your money in a bank, fine. Pay them a fee for providing the service. If they want to lend money, fine, but they have to have it first. 1 to 1. No lending what doesn't exist. Pay a fee for the service, but not compounding interest. It wasn't that long ago that usury was punishable by death.

The machine will fight tooth and nail to protect itself, and the banks, governments, and corporations, are all part of that machine. Your only defense is construct your life so that you don't need them. Independence as an individual is the single biggest threat to them, but it is the only thing we can do. Forget voting. The days of right and left are long gone. It's about right and wrong now, and deep down, under all the social conditioning, everyone knows the difference.

Why did the politician cross the road?

Because he said he wouldn't.

[TomGoodheart 401]

Interesting. I was walking near the local shops the other day and I noticed the Estate Agents had a sign saying 'No savings? No deposit? No problem! 100% mortgages available' and I thought 'Whaaa?' Actually what I thought had more fs and ks in it but ... how on earth, having just had the entire world economy pulled down by sub-prime mortgage probalems and dodgy investments, can they offer such a thing? How do they dare, even?

Because the problem as I see it is living within our means. Now I don't inherently have a problem with money. It's very handy. More so to me than a garage full of baked beans anyway! And I can talk from the luxurious position of a late baby boomer. I inherited my parent's house which I sold and so now have savings. But before that I invested wisely, always payed off my credit card bills and had the smallest mortgage I needed. And I didn't rush out and buy loads of stuff I didn't need. Consequently, even if it weren't for the savings, I have no debts (OK, there's the deferred payment for some kitchen units but I have the money ready to pay that when the interest free 9 months is up) Wifey and I have mediocre paying jobs (teaching assistant and care worker) but we live within our means. If we can't afford it, we go without.

But there seems to be a generation who never 'got' this. Who just buy what they want and worry about paying later. And now the crunch has come and times are tough, they have no reserves to fall back on, only debt.

Seems to me people need to learn not to spend what they don't have. And if they don't have much, to save what they do by buying wisely. But many seem unable (or unwilling) to do so. They feel they have to have holidays and large TVs and the latest phone, even if it puts them further in debt.

I think declan and scott are right. We (and those around us) need to act differently. Spend differently. Start looking at 'necessities' and what makes someone rich differently. Because the banks and so on aren't going to do it for us.

[scott 144]

there is such thing as too much tax. there is only so far you can go before you make less money from higher taxes, so somtimes less is more

as for neccesities, thats the main problem, you have greedy oil companies and energy companies making billions of profit, food prices through the roof (not helped by VAT either, it is time for these giants to get thier act together.

[Rob 3,152]

there is such thing as too much tax. there is only so far you can go before you make less money from higher taxes, so somtimes less is more

as for neccesities, thats the main problem, you have greedy oil companies and energy companies making billions of profit, food prices through the roof (not helped by VAT either, it is time for these giants to get thier act together.

Just because large companies make billions of pounds in profit, that doesn't mean to say they are greedy, nor that the return is excessive. To get an example, I just had a look at the latest figures for Scottish & Southern and the important numbers are as follows.

Turnover £28.33bn

Gross profit £3.19bn

Profit before tax £2.11bn

Net profit £1.50bn

I don't know if these figures are representative of the industry as a whole, but a pre-tax profit of under 7.5% is hardly an excessive return, and the treasury benefitted to the tune of £607.2m from taxation. There is no point being in business unless you make money.

Taking the anti-capitalist viewpoint whereby no profit should be made, then the shareholders would be better off folding the company and putting the money in the bank - then we can all live happily ever after in our mud huts with none of the capitalist paid-for benefits such as medical facilities, social welfare, transport, education, etc. Company taxation pays for some of the services that everyone wants, with the rest paid for by government IOUs. The latter is not sustainable. All those who want greater funding (or even the preservation of current levels of benefits) would be better off backing businesses instead of looking to see who they can strangle with taxation next. Tax receipts spent are money that's gone up in smoke, almost invariably on consumption. A sustainable business model can produce taxable profits, the taxation of which can provide sustainable benefits for all. That is the only viable way forward if there is to be any hope of maintaining this country's living standards.

If a sole trader made the same rate of return on turnover, in order to earn the UK average salary of about £25K he would have to invoice £1/3m. Multi-billion pound companies make multi-billion pound profits, but the important number is the percentage return, not the cash number.

[coin watch 1]

My basic way of thinking is where is all the fairness gone? When we mention greed we automatically think firstly of the banks, and rightly so, we also mention oil and energy companies, and again rightly so with the oil, but with the energy companies (I used to work for one)..well i think they should have stayed nationalised and been considered with pride as a service rather than a profit making machine, as Rob says the net profit example shows are comparatively low, all privatisation has done is weaken the workforce and the poor sods who are still with these montsers are working longer and longer hours for less pay but more worrying less pension at the end of it all. Yes business and capitalism is very important to a society like ours, it always has been, but the top end has ripped the guts out of the whole system and now the results are beginning to show and for 90% of us the future is going to change. Could this have been avoided...Yes of cousre it could, but was it ever ment to be?!!

I cannot buy decent coins anymore, well not the top ones anyway, but I'm still in it for the hobby and study which I think is most important. As for credit well I've never had a loan in my life nor a mortgage, nothing clever in that just took notice of my mum when she said to me "if you cant afford it you cant have it" so save, save, save is what I did, add this to the motivation to get out of an ever decreasing crap hole of an inner London estate then this should be an example of a low educated individual making something with hard work and a lot of planning while still thinking of others (wife,kids etc)

What I am trying to say is this whole mess is down to GREED pure and simple.

1950's & 1960's just a little before my time, but from what my elders have told me these seem to have been the better times to have lived in, I dont mean material wealth but family, friends and community wealth. This does not exist now like it did then, not quite in "mud huts" but poorer and I think happier, but then it was not long after the last WAR!!!

[scott 144]

the energy companies do not even "compete" with each other, they charge nearly the exact same prices and have loads of tariffs which no one understands, yes they have to make a profit, but they are not going about it the right way, look at shops, quite a few absorbed the VAT increase and do sales to bring people through the door, yet energy companies seem to be all the same thing.

the people responisble for this recession are the banks, yet you cant tax them excessivly because they will just leave to go elsewhere. it isn't the labour governments fault for the crisis (people point the finger at the governments all the time)it is the banks and thier stupid loans, we are brought up to face responsability for our actions, yet the banks don't seem to.

if we want to talk about fairness, the VAT rise effects the poor more then the rich.

if privitisation is the problem then that was thatcher wasn't it?

to fix this mess you need people spending money, people cant spend money if most of thier income is going on travel, electicity and gas. what is effected as result of lack of spening, charities, and the economy as a whole. the government needs to look at how to make people spend, making profit is fine, but the government needs to focus more on smaller buisness and job creation.

more jobs means - more spending

more jobs means - LESS welfare (jobseekers)

what does germany have that we dont? o yes a strong manufacturing industry.

privitasion needs to be on things we NEED (energy, busses trains, NHS) and privitisation on the optional things (we all love a choice afterall)

nationalising the banks? that sort of happened when the government kept them afloat, and in the long term could make the government a profit when they come to sell up.

and do we need to bring in what has happened to football since the start of the premier league?

[josie 8]

Just posting.

Just a comment,most of the companies are in stock markets??It is all profit??Investment if they have a data,numbers or info??,no data,number or info game by chance,gambling???

Investment or bet???stored wealth of silver and gold coin currencies or low base metal and paper???

[Accumulator 52]

I would probably be viewed as a capitalist ‘insider’ and would instinctively share Rob or Peter’s view on business and society, but rather than argue that case further I’d like to throw in something else.

Our beloved media (The Mirror, The Sun, The Daily Star, ‘True-Life’ chat magazines and a few hundred crappy free tv channels) have managed to promote a new and deep-rooted culture where fame, celebrity and get-rich-quick are elevated way above genuine hard work and success. Any city banker or corporate CEO, whether you despise them or not, has worked his or her way up through a tough education and incredible competition over many years to reach their current precarious position. These are the bad guys apparently. On the other hand, lottery winners, X-Factor wannabes, soap star characters, footballers wives, Paris Hilton and the rest of their ilk are held up as role models for the masses. I believe that this hollow celebrity culture has far more to answer for than any city banker or Footsie 100 CEO in creating a society where unless instant gratification is available, nothing (work included) is worth doing.

[Rob 3,152]

My basic way of thinking is where is all the fairness gone? When we mention greed we automatically think firstly of the banks, and rightly so, we also mention oil and energy companies, and again rightly so with the oil, but with the energy companies (I used to work for one)..well i think they should have stayed nationalised and been considered with pride as a service rather than a profit making machine, as Rob says the net profit example shows are comparatively low, all privatisation has done is weaken the workforce and the poor sods who are still with these montsers are working longer and longer hours for less pay but more worrying less pension at the end of it all. Yes business and capitalism is very important to a society like ours, it always has been, but the top end has ripped the guts out of the whole system and now the results are beginning to show and for 90% of us the future is going to change. Could this have been avoided...Yes of cousre it could, but was it ever ment to be?!!

I cannot buy decent coins anymore, well not the top ones anyway, but I'm still in it for the hobby and study which I think is most important. As for credit well I've never had a loan in my life nor a mortgage, nothing clever in that just took notice of my mum when she said to me "if you cant afford it you cant have it" so save, save, save is what I did, add this to the motivation to get out of an ever decreasing crap hole of an inner London estate then this should be an example of a low educated individual making something with hard work and a lot of planning while still thinking of others (wife,kids etc)

What I am trying to say is this whole mess is down to GREED pure and simple.

1950's & 1960's just a little before my time, but from what my elders have told me these seem to have been the better times to have lived in, I dont mean material wealth but family, friends and community wealth. This does not exist now like it did then, not quite in "mud huts" but poorer and I think happier, but then it was not long after the last WAR!!!

Although I believe that some of the problems today stem from greed, I think the bigger problem lies with the politicians. Rarely do you get a government minister who is a complete master of their department with adequate experience in their chosen field. Politicians want to be liked by everyone because the people deliver their votes and the party offering the most sweeties usually gets the majority. Left or right, neither is exempt from abrogating their responsibilities to society. Margaret Thatcher is still slated for making people less caring for others by rolling back the state's influence and privatising state resources. I agree that certain utilities could and should have remained intact, though whether public ownership would have allowed for improved efficiency in the workplace is a moot point. When there is no profit and loss account to consider and a job is effectively for life with promotion/pay level increases at predetermined intervals, you have a cozy existence in the workplace where there is no incentive to rock the boat. People become very complacent in this environment. By comparison, 12 years of Labour government led to an explosion of spending over receipts which was mainly focussed on consumption, whilst at the same time ignoring the wealth generating capacity of the workforce. You can't have a booming economy based on an explosion of red ink. Mr Average UK thought this was wonderful, lapped it up and spent much on imported consumables. There is no one isolated reason for this country's present state. People want to consume and don't have the self discipline to wait for something until you can afford it.

Our society today is now far too polarised, with many people living off the state and having no incentive to replace benefits with income. Those people working in wealth creating employment can rightly expect to reap the rewards that come with capital available for distribution. This polarisation is divisive because the state can not and should not provide a standard of living on benefits equal to someone generating wealth which also gets taxed to provide for the other side of the equation.

The question of community spirit and its lack of today is also a product of technological advance, educational opportunities and ambition, not only greed. Today we can travel much further than our forefathers in much more efficient aircraft that fly faster, or get from A to B domestically in much less time than when I was a child. Improved transport links allow people to live further from the workplace. Most families have a car or two. Holidays to the Med only cost a few hundred pounds. When I went to university in the 1970s, approximately 10% of 6th form leavers took this route. Ten years before the number was 5%, yet today this number is 40% or so. There you meet people from other cities or countries and your eyes are opened accordingly seeing new opportunities for employment and travel. None of this was available to the generation before mine where marrying someone from the same area, or even the same street was the norm. People moving away from the area they were brought up in inevitably leads to a breakdown in communities when the members are less likely to be related and to have shared common experiences.

the energy companies do not even "compete" with each other, they charge nearly the exact same prices and have loads of tariffs which no one understands, yes they have to make a profit, but they are not going about it the right way, look at shops, quite a few absorbed the VAT increase and do sales to bring people through the door, yet energy companies seem to be all the same thing.

the people responisble for this recession are the banks, yet you cant tax them excessivly because they will just leave to go elsewhere. it isn't the labour governments fault for the crisis (people point the finger at the governments all the time)it is the banks and thier stupid loans, we are brought up to face responsability for our actions, yet the banks don't seem to.

if we want to talk about fairness, the VAT rise effects the poor more then the rich.

if privitisation is the problem then that was thatcher wasn't it?

to fix this mess you need people spending money, people cant spend money if most of thier income is going on travel, electicity and gas. what is effected as result of lack of spening, charities, and the economy as a whole. the government needs to look at how to make people spend, making profit is fine, but the government needs to focus more on smaller buisness and job creation.

more jobs means - more spending

more jobs means - LESS welfare (jobseekers)

what does germany have that we dont? o yes a strong manufacturing industry.

privitasion needs to be on things we NEED (energy, busses trains, NHS) and privitisation on the optional things (we all love a choice afterall)

nationalising the banks? that sort of happened when the government kept them afloat, and in the long term could make the government a profit when they come to sell up.

and do we need to bring in what has happened to football since the start of the premier league?

VAT is a bit of a red herring when you are talking about energy because it isn't charged at the full rate. Energy prices are much more closely tied to fuel costs. It is also important that energy companies stay solvent. Nobody cares if a fashion outlet goes down the tube, but if an energy company's workforce was locked out because the business had folded then this would have an effect on supplies to everyone. Power cuts might ensue depending on the amount of spare capacity in the system at the time.

Everyone likes a whipping boy, but the incessant complaints about banks are a little disingenuous. Banks lend money to individuals or companies based on a plan which can be either personal or business. Any loans taken out should reflect the ability of the borrower to pay the interest and capital back. 100% mortgages or fully funding any other loan applications have always been wrong in my view because the borrower has put no equity into the asset purchase. Banks are always accused of not lending to small businesses or individuals, but clearly they are not short of liquidity because the interest rates on offer for deposits are very low. If they needed to raise capital over and above the current rate, then the interest rates offered would have to rise until sufficient capital was raised. Banks are just like any other business, i.e. if they can see a way to make an acceptable return on their investment they will do so. The problem they have is a lack of clarity regarding the borrower's future income and cashflow. Just as few on this forum would buy a coin if the image was dodgy, or at least only with a large safety margin, so it is reasonable for banks to be cautious when lending. They have also been required to increase their tier 1 capital by the regulators. This is where the money has gone to injected under quantitative easing. Banks are only businesses and should be allowed to fail just like any other company. If someone has all their eggs in one basket (ie one bank), then you can't legislate for stupidity. Somewhere, someone has to take responsibility for their own actions.

Economies always come out of recession by people spending more money than they previously did, but the flaw in this is that currently that money would be from increased borrowing leading to even more debt. That isn't a solution to the problem, more another spadeful of soil. There are other ways of helping the economy though. If you have a choice, buy goods or food produced in this country. Import replacement is just one way of improving the lot of the taxpayer because it wil be produced by people who pay taxes and so the money gets recycled. Money retained within the country that goes round and round is to everyone's benefit. Money spent on imported goods has left the system for good unless it can be replaced by exporting home produced items. That is why a positive balance of payments is so important. People could also grow their own food where possible. Potatoes will grow on even the most run-down estate in a way that shopping trollies and empty drink cans never will.

Germany has been successful because its folk have a much stronger work ethic than in this country. It rebuilt itself after WW2 and the results are there for all to see. In Germany you have to save for 10 years or more to get a loan to build your own house. The loan has preferential rates, but more importantly you have a significant equity stake. Nothing wrong in that. In parallel there is a tendency to buy quality goods for the home that cost twice as much but last at least twice as long. German companies produce these goods, and in general will be the first choice of the German consumer. Germany with its products, ethics and attitudes is a blueprint that this country could do well to copy.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Rob

[scott 144]

there is a key thing here though, germany china japan? all manufacturing industries, all exporting, where is ours, our economy is based on these bankers.

and i agree, singers, filmstars, sportspeople, are paied a fortune, for doing jack, especially when you consider people like the police fire, doctors etc, all do a service and are required in society, are paied a pittence.

not saying bankers etc dont deserve to be where they are, but they need to do more for society, go back to the victorian period for example and look how they behaved then, they helped the poor, now you never see them nor do they seem to care.

i think the main issue is the electronic money era, all these credit cards and loan shops, loss of the community are what has become of the modern age, long gone are the local community going to the local shops, they have all been priced out by the massive supermarkets, which you drive to in your cars.

and in the 70's university was free, now you get a massive pile of debt in a student loan, which i think is a negative.

i remember in history GCSE, and it covered the 20th century, the USA fixed thier side of the great depression with massive building programmes (hoover dam) and manufacturing, and the reason for the strength of german was Hitlers working in a similar vain (autobahns, volkswagen), where britain was nowhere near restoring itself as fast, the war created our jobs.

so why has this not been done here? how much of the stuff that is manufactured is british in our shops?

go to france, 80% of the cars are french, go to america its the same.

all fingers point to making things and skilled jobs.

as for the benifts issue, its not that people have no will to work and come off, it is the fact that they have LESS money when working due to traveling expences etc.

people should work, but there is little point if you earn more on benefits.

so it is simple, create our own tat instead of buying chinese

[Rob 3,152]

there is a key thing here though, germany china japan? all manufacturing industries, all exporting, where is ours, our economy is based on these bankers.

and i agree, singers, filmstars, sportspeople, are paied a fortune, for doing jack, especially when you consider people like the police fire, doctors etc, all do a service and are required in society, are paied a pittence.

not saying bankers etc dont deserve to be where they are, but they need to do more for society, go back to the victorian period for example and look how they behaved then, they helped the poor, now you never see them nor do they seem to care.

i think the main issue is the electronic money era, all these credit cards and loan shops, loss of the community are what has become of the modern age, long gone are the local community going to the local shops, they have all been priced out by the massive supermarkets, which you drive to in your cars.

and in the 70's university was free, now you get a massive pile of debt in a student loan, which i think is a negative.

i remember in history GCSE, and it covered the 20th century, the USA fixed thier side of the great depression with massive building programmes (hoover dam) and manufacturing, and the reason for the strength of german was Hitlers working in a similar vain (autobahns, volkswagen), where britain was nowhere near restoring itself as fast, the war created our jobs.

so why has this not been done here? how much of the stuff that is manufactured is british in our shops?

go to france, 80% of the cars are french, go to america its the same.

all fingers point to making things and skilled jobs.

as for the benifts issue, its not that people have no will to work and come off, it is the fact that they have LESS money when working due to traveling expences etc.

people should work, but there is little point if you earn more on benefits.

so it is simple, create our own tat instead of buying chinese

Which is precisely what I've been saying all along. The only long term solution for any indebted country is to export its problems elsewhere in the form of a trade surplus. Wealth recycled within a country can be broadly neutral as incomes are spent locally, though there is still a drain on the national resources from the non-wealth generating section of the economy, for which read government departments and services.