How could this happen?

[Debbie 58]

And how would you go about grading something like this?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1918-PCGS-MS63-silver-SHILLING-WORLD-WAR-coin-King-GEORGE-V-/400262018596?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d3179b624

Oh and how do you shorten a link!

[azda 979]

And how would you go about grading something like this?

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item5d3179b624

Oh and how do you shorten a link!

Well 1st of all, it's certainly no BU as described by the seller, MS63 is GEF/AUNC, the REV i've no idea why its so bad, but i'd not spend my money on the coin anyway, both sides would have to look as decent as the OBV for me to part with cas.

P.s MS65 upwards is regarded as UNC MS70 being mint state

Edited December 7, 2011 by azda

[azda 979]

Here's a good thread for you to read on Shillings Debbie

http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4784&pid=55096&st=0entry55096

[Debbie 58]

Hi Asda -Thanks for pointing me to that thread. I can see I am going to have to get myself a magnifing glass! Do you or anyone else on the forum know what a "chamfered rim" looks like. The rims of those of 2A AND 3A that were posted look quite diffeent to me.

[Peter 615]

Here is a bit of info on the Sheldon grading system

http://coins.about.com/od/coingrading/f/sheldon_scale.htm

I think once you get to MS63 (graded by PCGS or NGC) you will be getting a reasonable UNC coin with maybe a few bag marks...MS65 plus and it will be choice UNC.

MS70 for currency is so rare and sought(the Yanks pay HUGE premiums).

The shilling isn't pretty and I would of been disappointed if bought blind.

Be wary of other slabbed coins as a lot are done by "self slabbers" also other TPG companies in the US don't have such a good reputation.

[azda 979]

I was under the impression that a US graded 63 was our AUNC or there abouts and 65 was UNC

[RLC35 288]

Debbie,

As Peter has mentioned, PCGS and NGC are the two USA grading companies... you can rely on for better grading. ANAC's is ok, but not up to PCGS and NGC standards. The balance of the companies are not as reliable. My personal opinion!

[Peter 615]

I was under the impression that a US graded 63 was our AUNC or there abouts and 65 was UNC

Our AUNC would be MS60-62.

MS63=UNC & any MS after this will have good eye appeal/better strike etc.

A MS65 will be a choice UNC & anything above this will be a wallet buster.

With our TPG CGS.

A CGS80 will be very nice and 85 superb probably a PCGS MS65/6.

My own records use UNC or AUNC...I never use BU unless it was minted yesterday.(and I don't collect those)Note that CC never use BU...always practically or nearly.

I've bought a couple of PCGS & NGC MS65's and as far as I can see they are superb

[Rob 3,152]

I was under the impression that a US graded 63 was our AUNC or there abouts and 65 was UNC

Our AUNC would be MS60-62.

MS63=UNC & any MS after this will have good eye appeal/better strike etc.

A MS65 will be a choice UNC & anything above this will be a wallet buster.

With our TPG CGS.

A CGS80 will be very nice and 85 superb probably a PCGS MS65/6.

My own records use UNC or AUNC...I never use BU unless it was minted yesterday.(and I don't collect those)Note that CC never use BU...always practically or nearly.

I've bought a couple of PCGS & NGC MS65's and as far as I can see they are superb

In the main I'd go with Azda on this one. You do get some unc MS63s, but the vast majority aren't being only gEF. 64s seem to be roughly split between UNC and not. Always aim for a 65 or higher if you are hedging your bets, but even a 65 doesn't guarantee an unc. I don't use aUNC as a grade, uncirculated being a statement of fact - in fact I find it just as bad as very unique or similar.

[Peter 615]

OK Gents...you might not agree with TPG's but this is the standard of Sheldon.

http://coins.about.com/od/coingrading/qt/coin_grading101.htm

[Colin G. 147]

I don't use aUNC as a grade, uncirculated being a statement of fact - in fact I find it just as bad as very unique or similar.

I can always understand the logic behind the statement in terms of the word "uncirculated", but UNC is a technical grade, so I personally don't see an issue with a coin being aUNC. I love these threads they always pop up a couple of times a year we all agree to disagree and then settle back down again and then they raise their heads again

And you lot.......buy the coin not the slab remember

[Rob 3,152]

OK Gents...you might not agree with TPG's but this is the standard of Sheldon.

http://coins.about.com/od/coingrading/qt/coin_grading101.htm

Yeh, but the problem is that TPGs should preface their grades "with apologies to Sheldon". You can write all you want about the theoretical definitions of a given grade, but the number is determined by an impartial human being or two - not. Everybody who looks at a coin with a view to assigning a grade will see the coin in the light of their own preferences. It might look nicer to one person because of the toning, but his friend might like them brilliant. Lack of familiarity with the coins is also a problem with the TPGs because they can't hope to have experience across all the coin types of all the countries of the world. I'm sure they are very good at grading US coins, but as has been discussed several times on these boards - buy the coin and not the grade. If I could take groups of 10 coins at random intervals and agree with the attribution and grades say 95% or greater of the time, then I would be more likely to have confidence in the grades assigned across the board. Theory and practise are somewhat divergent when it comes to slabs and grading.

Debbie. Search for slabbing, slabs grading, TPGs etc. Much hot air has been expended on this and other forums whilst debating the pros and cons of grading companies.

[Rob 3,152]

Hi Asda -Thanks for pointing me to that thread. I can see I am going to have to get myself a magnifing glass! Do you or anyone else on the forum know what a "chamfered rim" looks like. The rims of those of 2A AND 3A that were posted look quite diffeent to me.

A chamfered rim has the 90 degree rim/edge replaced by a 45 degree angled flat where the sharp angle was previously. Pic attached of a 1911 proof shilling which will hopefully be clear enough. It is the obverse rim which is chamfered, not the reverse which has a much thinner raised rim than the obverse.

[1949threepence 3,367]

And how would you go about grading something like this?

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item5d3179b624

Oh and how do you shorten a link!

Simple ~ use the link symbol, which is next to the smiley face in the post tool bar, and when you have inserted your link in the top line, add you own text, as you would like the link wording to appear, in the box below, which defaults to "my link" when nothing else is written in there. So for your link above, you might have:-

George V shilling

[1949threepence 3,367]

Another nice link to the Sheldon grading system can be seen here

For reference, the above is a coin slabbed by the NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Corporation) as MS65

Edited December 7, 2011 by 1949threepence

[azda 979]

Another nice link to the Sheldon grading system can be seen here

For reference, the above is a coin slabbed by the NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Corporation) as MS65

Strangely enough i'd say they were a little light with the grade on that, but it was'nt in my hand when it was graded, but it does look good

Edited December 8, 2011 by azda

[Rob 3,152]

Another nice link to the Sheldon grading system can be seen here

For reference, the above is a coin slabbed by the NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Corporation) as MS65

The link article is less than useless. It gives the equivalent of a US AU50 as a UK XF/UNC and a US MS60 as a UK UNC. I've never seen an MS60 that even approached unc, and as for AU50, well........

[Rob 3,152]

Another nice link to the Sheldon grading system can be seen here

For reference, the above is a coin slabbed by the NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Corporation) as MS65

Strangely enough i'd say they were a little light with the grade on that, but it was'nt in my hand when it was graded, but it does look good

Hmm. Might have to dissent from this viewpoint. Spotty on both sides and a rather heavy bagmark below the ties. I thought both those features would count against a coin when you have it slabbed. The strike looks ok. It would be interesting to see the coin in 10 years time. I suspect the spots might have grown a bit.

[azda 979]

Here's an ebay item number for a dipped/overgraded coin Debbie 230700005314 and here's another for a shilling that might interest you 140656452759 (if you have'nt got one already that is)

Rob, i did notice the spots, but not the bag mark

[1949threepence 3,367]

Another nice link to the Sheldon grading system can be seen here

For reference, the above is a coin slabbed by the NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Corporation) as MS65

The link article is less than useless. It gives the equivalent of a US AU50 as a UK XF/UNC and a US MS60 as a UK UNC. I've never seen an MS60 that even approached unc, and as for AU50, well........

As far as the descriptions of the three slabbed coins I've bought from the US are concerned, including the 1888 above, the descriptions were spot on. It's a bit incongruous to try and compare it to our grading system, as you are in no way comparing like with like. I thought it was already commonly accepted that their grading was more generous than ours.

Edited December 8, 2011 by 1949threepence

[1949threepence 3,367]

Another nice link to the Sheldon grading system can be seen here

For reference, the above is a coin slabbed by the NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Corporation) as MS65

Strangely enough i'd say they were a little light with the grade on that, but it was'nt in my hand when it was graded, but it does look good

Hmm. Might have to dissent from this viewpoint. Spotty on both sides and a rather heavy bagmark below the ties. I thought both those features would count against a coin when you have it slabbed. The strike looks ok. It would be interesting to see the coin in 10 years time. I suspect the spots might have grown a bit.

I wonder what they looked like in 2001

[Rob 3,152]

Another nice link to the Sheldon grading system can be seen here

For reference, the above is a coin slabbed by the NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Corporation) as MS65

The link article is less than useless. It gives the equivalent of a US AU50 as a UK XF/UNC and a US MS60 as a UK UNC. I've never seen an MS60 that even approached unc, and as for AU50, well........

As far as the descriptions of the three slabbed coins I've bought from the US are concerned, including the 1888 above, the descriptions were spot on. It's a bit incongruous to try and compare it to our grading system, as you are in no way comparing like with like. I thought it was already commonly accepted that their grading was more generous than ours.

Yes it is amongst those with experience, but the purpose of any info is expand the knowledge of the ignorant. By definition, they will not know that there are different standards. Mint state from two countries would mean the same thing to someone who is a novice and that is why we have to keep reiterating the point.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Rob

[Peter 615]

Trouble is though UK dealers differentiate so much.A novice could buy 5 coins from every dealer who advertise in Coin News...all Unc

and I bet you would get a spread of NEF to Choice Unc.At least PCGS and NGC would probably be fairly consistant.

Lets be honest here...who hasn't bought an Unc from a UK dealer and then compared it to your own GEF and it doesn't cut it ?

Learn the hard way and send em back....

[Rob 3,152]

Trouble is though UK dealers differentiate so much.A novice could buy 5 coins from every dealer who advertise in Coin News...all Unc

and I bet you would get a spread of NEF to Choice Unc.At least PCGS and NGC would probably be fairly consistant.

Lets be honest here...who hasn't bought an Unc from a UK dealer and then compared it to your own GEF and it doesn't cut it ?

Learn the hard way and send em back....

Vive la difference. Anyone with experience knows that standards/grading aren't consistent between dealers. So for the TPGs as well. The problem is more of one whereby we need to engage novices to post, contribute to the discussions, learn from what is said and thereby expand their knowledge base just as Debbie has done with with her few threads. It hasn't gone un-noticed that she has asked sensible questions over and above what's this coin worth, which is what most want so that they can list a coin on ebay. Oh that others would do the same. We all had to start somewhere and hopefully have learned a lot over the years we have been collecting. It is better we all learn to compare chalk with cheese and recognise the differences. For what it's worth, leaving aside the toning on the 1918 shilling in the first post link, the lion detail actually looks above average for the year because it looks like a fullish nose.

[Debbie 58]

My goodness you have been busy gentlemen, It certainly makes very interesting reading for me "as the ignorant" (sorry Rob I know what you meant really!). I have to agree that whilst I realise that I need to become experienced and competent with the grading systems out there, at this stage the actual skill of knowing what features to look for that make it a decent coin is the most important. The full nose is a great example – so at least if I find a shilling between 1914 -1918 with this feature regardless of what the said grading, I will know it’s probably a good buy. Likewise knowing if a coin has been dipped, cleaned, forged, or of a scarcer micro variety is greatly useful and I thank you all for contributing with this information.

Thanks for those links Asda, it is good to compare the two, I think I would have rejected the first because of the scratches and overlooked the second because I couldn’t see the BM clearly – that’s an example of how I have been selecting coins in the past!