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Debbie

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My goodness you have been busy gentlemen, It certainly makes very interesting reading for me "as the ignorant" (sorry Rob I know what you meant really!). I have to agree that whilst I realise that I need to become experienced and competent with the grading systems out there, at this stage the actual skill of knowing what features to look for that make it a decent coin is the most important. The full nose is a great example – so at least if I find a shilling between 1914 -1918 with this feature regardless of what the said grading, I will know it’s probably a good buy. Likewise knowing if a coin has been dipped, cleaned, forged, or of a scarcer micro variety is greatly useful and I thank you all for contributing with this information.

Thanks for those links Asda, it is good to compare the two, I think I would have rejected the first because of the scratches and overlooked the second because I couldn’t see the BM clearly – that’s an example of how I have been selecting coins in the past! :lol:

Nothing wrong with that, in fact you should be giving yourself a pat on the back. Rejecting things is the hard part when you have a gap to fill and the longer time goes on, the greater the temptation. We are all prone to buying things out of frustration. The fact you are looking for the BM is also a good thing. If it is normally well struck on a coin, then the chances are the weakness in the BM wil be replicated elsewhere. Knowing where it is weak also helps though, and with some of the WW1 years, there are a considerable number of weaker strikes found. One plausible argument I have heard for this is that less force was used in striking in an effort to prolong the life of the dies. You can also get weak detail as a result of die fill, where bits of muck get trapped in recesses and take the edge off the sharp detail. Missing lions' faces on reverse shields is a common one for the higher denominations, though for shield or garter reverse shillings I would doubt there was ever much detail in the faces because even my proofs don't have very much. On these you should use the harp breast as an indicator for wear. The harp breast is conical and so not prone to die fill. The area of any flattening is therefore directly proprtional to the amount of wear.

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My goodness you have been busy gentlemen, It certainly makes very interesting reading for me "as the ignorant" (sorry Rob I know what you meant really!). I have to agree that whilst I realise that I need to become experienced and competent with the grading systems out there, at this stage the actual skill of knowing what features to look for that make it a decent coin is the most important. The full nose is a great example – so at least if I find a shilling between 1914 -1918 with this feature regardless of what the said grading, I will know it's probably a good buy. Likewise knowing if a coin has been dipped, cleaned, forged, or of a scarcer micro variety is greatly useful and I thank you all for contributing with this information.

Thanks for those links Asda, it is good to compare the two, I think I would have rejected the first because of the scratches and overlooked the second because I couldn't see the BM clearly – that's an example of how I have been selecting coins in the past! :lol:

Our forum member red riley has wrote the book on grading, if you look at the book banner at the top of the site, you see "grading British Coins" printed by rotographic, which will help. Of the second coin, perhaps you didn't see the BM due to the lighting of the coin, that one to me is a well struck coin, only my opinion though

If you look here Debbie http://www.predecima...ic=3664&st=3720 post number 3740 a recent coin i bought, the B of BM is not distinct, then if you go to the next page at post 3761 you'll see my in hand picture where the BM is slapping your face, just because you can't see something does'nt mean its not there, it could be a culmination of lighting or a poor picture or both.

Edited by azda

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Debbie

At the end of the day we all have our favorites,some love lustre on copper...I do as well but I'm quite content with a nice even brown tone.

I won't buy coins with edge damage or verdigris but don't have a problem with a certain amount of wear.I'm very found of good eye appeal and when you see a dealer occasionaly describe a coin as pleasing it gets my attention.

I didn't bid on last weekends London coin auction but was sorely tempted by LOT 1778 which was a 1775 1/2d.If I saw it at a coin fair for £110 I would buy it.I went through a lot of cold turkey by not bidding....and not the boxing day type. ;)

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Debbie, you may already know, but there was a 'recut' portrait introduced in 1920, which is flatter and shallower than the one used between 1911 and 1920. The hair detail is also much lighter and the rim lower, which is why the coins between 1920 and 1926 wear so quickly. The main reason for saying this is because you are a shilling collector : the ONLY rare shilling that uses the earlier of the two portraits occurs in 1921 (which has several minor varieties; this is a major variety).

The Spink reference is incorrect for this (as well as being totally unrealistic on the prices - you'd think from their pricing that the rare coin occurs 1:3 or 1:4, but it's much much rarer than that.) The main thing they got wrong is the pointing of the tip of George's nose : it points to S on the COMMON issue and between V and S on the RARE issue. I've attached a picture that hopefully shows the difference clearly.

The other difference which I haven't mentioned in the attachment, is the space between the legend and the rim. Probably because of longer teeth, and the convex flan, the space is very small on the earlier issue, but quite noticeable on the later one.

Well, that's my Aspergers workout for the day! Now I can go and listen to some Steely Dan and let my hair down. :D

post-4737-082881800 1323344637_thumb.jpg

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Thanks for that Peck.

I like Asparagus and the band that sang "All around my hat" too. :rolleyes:

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Thanks for that Peck.

I like Asparagus and the band that sang "All around my hat" too. :rolleyes:

Steeleye Span!!!

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The immediate aftermath of the change in silver content throws up a few inconsistencies. Not only are the portraits different, but in 1923 & 1925 you find that the shillings often have quite strong reverses whereas the other years are a bit weaker. There was a lot of experimentation at the mint in the 1920s with a settling in period for the change in metal mix giving both naturally dull and bright finishes to a mint state coin depending on the scrap metal added to the silver.

In 1923 & 1924 there was also a run of experimental strikings in nickel produced, presumably as an alternative to silver for general currency as our bullion was being used to pay off the war debts. This was not adopted and so you are highly unlikely to encounter one as only a few dozen were made, but it is worth checking these dates for magnetic properties in case somebody inadvertently disposed of one. Somebody has to win the lottery occasionally. :rolleyes:

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Another nice link to the Sheldon grading system can be seen here

post-4682-008811200 1323295470_thumb.jpgpost-4682-085374800 1323295507_thumb.jpg

For reference, the above is a coin slabbed by the NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Corporation) as MS65

The link article is less than useless. It gives the equivalent of a US AU50 as a UK XF/UNC and a US MS60 as a UK UNC. I've never seen an MS60 that even approached unc, and as for AU50, well........

As far as the descriptions of the three slabbed coins I've bought from the US are concerned, including the 1888 above, the descriptions were spot on. It's a bit incongruous to try and compare it to our grading system, as you are in no way comparing like with like. I thought it was already commonly accepted that their grading was more generous than ours.

Yes it is amongst those with experience, but the purpose of any info is expand the knowledge of the ignorant. By definition, they will not know that there are different standards. Mint state from two countries would mean the same thing to someone who is a novice and that is why we have to keep reiterating the point.

Well, yes, but obviously, if someone has a slabbed coin with MS70 on it, they will need a Sheldon score interpretation as a starting reference point. To that extent, it is useful.

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Thanks for those extra pointers guys. Peckris I had been a little confused over the 1921 nose to S / SV etc so thank you for clearing that one up. I have also read somewhere about curved “R’s†and straight “R’s†as another thing to look out for?

( BTW I have only bought 5 pence pieces from your site, not any shillings yet)

Asda I take your point on the BM as it could be the photo I guess it just reinforces that seeing coins in the hand is really the best way and that I shouldn’t be afraid of sending something back ifs it not up to expectation.(I will also watch that shilling!)

Rob, it’s interesting about the different types of silver content and metals introduced. Does that mean that the weights of these shillings might vary then? I find the reasons and speculations to why coins may vary quite fascinating.

I will see if I can get my hands on a magnet …. as well as a magnifying glass, electronic scales, digital camera, several reference books and perhaps the odd coin! :o

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Thanks for that Peck.

I like Asparagus and the band that sang "All around my hat" too. :rolleyes:

Steeleye Span!!!

Have I Whooooooooshed you Peck....that was the joke :D

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Thanks for those extra pointers guys. Peckris I had been a little confused over the 1921 nose to S / SV etc so thank you for clearing that one up. I have also read somewhere about curved “R’s” and straight “R’s” as another thing to look out for?

( BTW I have only bought 5 pence pieces from your site, not any shillings yet)

Asda I take your point on the BM as it could be the photo I guess it just reinforces that seeing coins in the hand is really the best way and that I shouldn’t be afraid of sending something back ifs it not up to expectation.(I will also watch that shilling!)

Rob, it’s interesting about the different types of silver content and metals introduced. Does that mean that the weights of these shillings might vary then? I find the reasons and speculations to why coins may vary quite fascinating.

I will see if I can get my hands on a magnet …. as well as a magnifying glass, electronic scales, digital camera, several reference books and perhaps the odd coin! :o

There is a typical range of weights for the silver currency coins, so you would not be able to rely on weight for an id. My 1923 nickel shilling weighs 5.68g compared to a theoretical 5.65g for the silver currency piece. As the densities of nickel and silver aren't that different you wouldn't be able to tell them apart in the hand. The only visual difference is that nickel is duller than a mint state silver coin, but you would need a magnet to check. Don't get too excited as I forecast that you would never find one in your lifetime, I don't know anyone who has found one and the likelihood is minimal. I just mentioned it to make you aware of the unexpected and hence unchecked. If you ever wanted one, it's best that you buy one in a sale or off a list.

A loupe, scales, books and more books are the most important things to get. A magnet isn't.

Edited by Rob

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Thanks for those extra pointers guys. Peckris I had been a little confused over the 1921 nose to S / SV etc so thank you for clearing that one up. I have also read somewhere about curved “R’s†and straight “R’s†as another thing to look out for?

( BTW I have only bought 5 pence pieces from your site, not any shillings yet)

Asda I take your point on the BM as it could be the photo I guess it just reinforces that seeing coins in the hand is really the best way and that I shouldn’t be afraid of sending something back ifs it not up to expectation.(I will also watch that shilling!)

Rob, it’s interesting about the different types of silver content and metals introduced. Does that mean that the weights of these shillings might vary then? I find the reasons and speculations to why coins may vary quite fascinating.

I will see if I can get my hands on a magnet …. as well as a magnifying glass, electronic scales, digital camera, several reference books and perhaps the odd coin! :o

You also need an electronic reclining chair and exclusive Ist dibbs on the pile of remote controls. :)

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You also need an electronic reclining chair and exclusive Ist dibbs on the pile of remote controls. :)

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There is an interesting piece on shillings here

Gives a good indication of what is scarce and what to look for.

I did read somewhere that the first year in which silver coins were debased from 92% silver to 50% silver ~ 1920, also saw a large number being mixed with melted down world war 1 spent shell cartridges, so that "silver" coins from that year appear a slightly darker colour than normal due specifically to that.

Obviously many of the Edward VII shillings are scarce, but with George V, there are a scattering of semi scarce dates, but no real rarities. Interestingly, it is quite difficult to get hold of a truly UNC 1924, even though the mintage, at just over 9 milliion, is not that low. I did eventually manage to get one, but I faced a lot of competition for it, and I've not seen any that good since.

You are right to be wary of fake or tooled 1905 shillings, Debbie. There are a lot about. I'd never buy one from e bay.

Oh, and never buy anything from China either. Anything from there comes with a strict health warning !!!

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I have also read somewhere about curved "R's" and straight "R's" as another thing to look out for?

<snipped>

If you want to read about curved R's on shillings, look no further than the part of Michael Gouby's site shown here

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Thanks for those extra pointers guys. Peckris I had been a little confused over the 1921 nose to S / SV etc so thank you for clearing that one up. I have also read somewhere about curved “R’s†and straight “R’s†as another thing to look out for?

( BTW I have only bought 5 pence pieces from your site, not any shillings yet)

Yes, the legends are slightly different lettering pre- and post-1920. Some letters have serifs while others don't, curved Rs as you say. There are in fact around a dozen different pointers that could be used to tell the difference between the early and later protraits. In the end though, it comes down to experience, and eventually you can just tell straight off which is which.

You'd find it difficult to even buy 5 pences off my site as 1) I don't have one and 2) I last sold a coin several years ago! You've mixed me up with someone else?

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Yes you are correct Peckris! I am so sorry...I was thinking of Chris Perkins as he had asked me what coins I had bought from this site. Still not a bad person to get confused with :rolleyes:

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Yes you are correct Peckris! I am so sorry...I was thinking of Chris Perkins as he had asked me what coins I had bought from this site. Still not a bad person to get confused with :rolleyes:

That is open for debate Debbie :lol:

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Yes you are correct Peckris! I am so sorry...I was thinking of Chris Perkins as he had asked me what coins I had bought from this site. Still not a bad person to get confused with :rolleyes:

That is open for debate Debbie :lol:

Seconded :D

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Yes you are correct Peckris! I am so sorry...I was thinking of Chris Perkins as he had asked me what coins I had bought from this site. Still not a bad person to get confused with :rolleyes:

That is open for debate Debbie :lol:

Seconded :D

I'll be a contrarian and say he's not that bad. He's pretty harmless. :) or should that be :ph34r:

Edited by Rob

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Thanks for those extra pointers guys. Peckris I had been a little confused over the 1921 nose to S / SV etc so thank you for clearing that one up.

<snip!>

Maybe I'm just being dumb, but even with the picture I cant figure the S/SV bit...! :unsure:

Which bit is doing the pointing?! Is it the bottom of the nose, the front of the nose or somewhere in between?! I is confuzzled!

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Cerbera - I didn't even know what the nose to S/ SV was full stop :ph34r: .... now at least I know its the letters around the outside of the coin and its the direction of kings nose that its refering to!! I have just taken that its the previous deep cut portrait that is most desirable in a 1921 shilling! ;)

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Thanks for those extra pointers guys. Peckris I had been a little confused over the 1921 nose to S / SV etc so thank you for clearing that one up.

<snip!>

Maybe I'm just being dumb, but even with the picture I cant figure the S/SV bit...! :unsure:

Which bit is doing the pointing?! Is it the bottom of the nose, the front of the nose or somewhere in between?! I is confuzzled!

I never understood the S or SV pointing either. The attached picture has the two obverses overlaid so that the portraits align. Even allowing for slight misalignment of the pictures, there's virtually nothing between the two in the SV region.

It's much easier to look at the width of the obverse rim (wide = obv 3, narrow = obv 4) and the pointiness of the nose (pointy = obv 3, bulbous = obv 4).

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Thanks for those extra pointers guys. Peckris I had been a little confused over the 1921 nose to S / SV etc so thank you for clearing that one up.

<snip!>

Maybe I'm just being dumb, but even with the picture I cant figure the S/SV bit...! :unsure:

Which bit is doing the pointing?! Is it the bottom of the nose, the front of the nose or somewhere in between?! I is confuzzled!

If you take the inverted-7 shape of the nose and think of it as an arrow - what is the arrow pointing to? On the earlier portrait it's the space between V and S, but on the later, it's almost directly to the S. Put it this way, it's a lot more obvious than "I to the left of a tooth / I almost to a space" you see with 1911 varieties. Nick's overlay makes one thing extremely clear - the legends on the two portraits are offset more than anything else is.

FWIW - when I asked Spink a few years ago to include the two portraits, and sent them a whole list of identifiers, I never knew they would 1) pick on that identifier alone and 2) get it the wrong way round!

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Cheers Peck, got it now! I suppose its like any (what we would call) major variety that a layman might refer to as a slight difference - once you've identified and seen it, it slaps you in the face every time!

You say Spink have it the wrong way round... they have for 1921...

deep engraved = nose to S = rarer

shallow engraved = nose to SV = more common

From what you've said, it should be deep = SV... but what about the (slight!) difference in rarity?

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