Euro Coins

[Peckris 579]

In? Out? or sabotage.

Catch 22 for David I fear.

What ever decision is made the Country must unite to prosper....& Oh...if there is a choice please buy British.

Can't buy a decent British car i'm afraid, ever tried a decent German one though? BMW; VW; PORSCHE; MERCEDES; AUDI, ROLLS ROYCE; MINI? Anyone?

And our water companies are owned by the French, our richest football clubs are owned by Americans and Russians, banks are answerable only to *ankers (we never see a penny), as Azda points out, our car manufacturers are all American, German, Japanese and Korean, call centres are divided between Liverpool and India roughly 1:4, our car, computer, mining, steel, shipbuilding industries have all gone West (or East, or South)... we are now a 4th-rate nation whose main enterprises are small-scale cottage and craft industries, and tourism. 7th in the world? Perhaps, but who gets the profits? Not us.

[Peter 615]

Its slag off UK time.

However our meat,fish,vegetables and fruit are class leading.

Whisky,cider & real ale (IMO)are the worlds finest.

OK we don't mass produce anything,we get our electricity and soon to be Nuke Power from the French (EDF).

I go and have been all over the world but as a package UK suits me fine

[Rob 3,152]

Is it time to reiterate the phrase "Charity begins at home"?

If you want to get something done you ask a busy man. Far too many people in this country are not busy.

Rather than everyone moaning about others, perhaps it is time to paraphrase JFK with "not what can Britain do for me, but what can I do for Britain?"

If you (general, not specific) actually believe in this country, do something about it. Large exporters are useful to the balance of payments, but also subject to impart large swings in performance when things go wrong. As Peter says, we should be buying British because every transaction that keeps money in the country is potentially recyclable in this country. That is how economies thrive, with positive export balances paying for the extras we all covet.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Rob

[azda 979]

Its slag off UK time.

However our meat,fish,vegetables and fruit are class leading.

Whisky,cider & real ale (IMO)are the worlds finest.

OK we don't mass produce anything,we get our electricity and soon to be Nuke Power from the French (EDF).

I go and have been all over the world but as a package UK suits me fine

Whisky? Lol, isn't that Scottish?

On a lighter note, i'm off to put my Wienachsts baum up

Edited December 10, 2011 by azda

[josie 8]

Balls of sterling,admirable one of the good traits of British fight against all odds.

Wait and see.

There is still commonwealth countries and the pound was agreed or peg to dollar in decimalization.

Should the EU should talk also to USA if they will forced or convinced GB to join the euro.

Are they going to replace the queens head in commonwealth countries with what?

New agreement or pegging of GB Pound to USA Dollar to Euro?

No more like in 70s decimalization of 1 USA cent to 1 new pence or 1/2 penny to 0.62 USA cents.

Wait and see,how they will melt and cook this in the pot or pun to make a new penny.

Just a comment.

Edited December 10, 2011 by josie

[Peter 615]

Its slag off UK time.

However our meat,fish,vegetables and fruit are class leading.

Whisky,cider & real ale (IMO)are the worlds finest.

OK we don't mass produce anything,we get our electricity and soon to be Nuke Power from the French (EDF).

I go and have been all over the world but as a package UK suits me fine

Whisky? Lol, isn't that Scottish?

On a lighter note, i'm off to put my Wienachsts baum up

Old Annie made us take you as pets partners & BTW you're the navy blue and white diagonal bit on the Union Jack.

[1949threepence 3,367]

The problem is that the EU in its present form has strayed way too far from its original Common Market principles. That was a trade association only with no impingement on national sovereignty. It's now become huge and unwieldy. Too many members, many of the recent inductees not of the right calibre, and a single currency which has not been a success.

We joined in 1973, and the referendum campaign in 1975 did not, to the best of my knowledge, include any mention of how the (then) Common Market might develop into an all powerful meddling bureaucracy, many years down the line. Had it done so, I doubt there would have been a majority in favour of stopping in.

Since the financial crash of 2008, the EU has been like a car crash in slow motion, and we may be seeing a slow disintegration of its constituent parts. Without the central players of France and Germany, I think this would already have happened.

David Cameron was left with no alternative but to not sign the recent agreement, if he wanted to preserve our independence. Moroever, I hope he will listen to the increasingly clarion calls for a further referendum on our continued membership.

[Accumulator 52]

Through the political ideology of a bunch of European ex-domestic politicians looking to extend their career and legacy, rather than for any pragmatic reason, the EC was morphing from a free trade zone into the United States of Europe. None of us ever voted for that and most of us didn't want it. DC had no choice but to stand up against the EU federalist bandwagon and represent the will of his own people. That's his job and on Thursday night it's what he did. In this, he has my full support.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Accumulator

[argentumandcoins 70]

Lets be honest here, the UK does'nt need the French/Germans to screw the UK economy out of money as daveg38 thinks and a few others, the British Government is doing a good enough job of doing it to the British public by themselves.

Personally, if the UK does'nt want to have the euro why should they get a say on whats happening with it? Also, joining the Euro did'nt increase Greece's problems, they obviously had their problems before they joined and this is perhaps WHY they joined. Germany has the biggest economy of all EU member states, so when the German Government is bleeding me dry through taxes to prop up other nations then i'd also say why should'nt Germany tell a few others to fall in line or simply f off.

And lets not forget the little dictator who runs the UK, who promised a referendum on the EU but then backed down, only to later have his arse kicked and humiliated in Parliament and lost to a landslide majority, of which was the biggest sinle loss by a Prime Minister, hmmmmm, something wrong in the UK me thinks. You can't have your cake and eat it, the UK is NOT as important as it thinks, and its GDP is almost as bad as the Greeks, so even IF you wanted in the Euro, i doubt right now that it would ever happen.

Lets not forget where all this ball started rolling (in the UK) Northern Rock, not the instigator in the whole financial crisis, but when the Northern Rocks problem surfaced, in the UK, it was a house of cards.

Chingford, there is a French/German coallition already with Cameron and Clegg at the wheel, both don't have an f ing clue what they are doing.Also Greece already had a referendum on the EU and the majority of the people wanted to stay in, which is unlike the UK Government who only wanted to tell their voters, nah nah nah we'll not vote, we'll tell you how it's gonna be. Dictatorship takes many forms

A phone poll today states that 86% of Germans think the UK should now leave the EU. Over to you Mr Cameron

My rant also over

I think it was about the same percentage in 1939-45 as well Dave, that didn't go too well for Das Reich either!

It all boils down to cultural mentality. British people always have and would like to continue to stand alone. Germany wants to be the master of Europe and France will do whatever the occupying power tells it to. Forget economics it really is that simple. Take a phone poll in the UK and I think you would find the same percentage telling Europe to go forth and multiply.

My only real experience at practical level of "European co-operation" is the European Human Rights Act and that is a right Royal pain in the arse.

You stay over there drinking Schnapps eating your boiled cabbage and I'll stay here drinking Malt and eating roast Beef!

[josie 8]

Just posting.

Dont know who will be the victor?haru?

I question???

Just posting.

[azda 979]

Lets be honest here, the UK does'nt need the French/Germans to screw the UK economy out of money as daveg38 thinks and a few others, the British Government is doing a good enough job of doing it to the British public by themselves.

Personally, if the UK does'nt want to have the euro why should they get a say on whats happening with it? Also, joining the Euro did'nt increase Greece's problems, they obviously had their problems before they joined and this is perhaps WHY they joined. Germany has the biggest economy of all EU member states, so when the German Government is bleeding me dry through taxes to prop up other nations then i'd also say why should'nt Germany tell a few others to fall in line or simply f off.

And lets not forget the little dictator who runs the UK, who promised a referendum on the EU but then backed down, only to later have his arse kicked and humiliated in Parliament and lost to a landslide majority, of which was the biggest sinle loss by a Prime Minister, hmmmmm, something wrong in the UK me thinks. You can't have your cake and eat it, the UK is NOT as important as it thinks, and its GDP is almost as bad as the Greeks, so even IF you wanted in the Euro, i doubt right now that it would ever happen.

Lets not forget where all this ball started rolling (in the UK) Northern Rock, not the instigator in the whole financial crisis, but when the Northern Rocks problem surfaced, in the UK, it was a house of cards.

Chingford, there is a French/German coallition already with Cameron and Clegg at the wheel, both don't have an f ing clue what they are doing.Also Greece already had a referendum on the EU and the majority of the people wanted to stay in, which is unlike the UK Government who only wanted to tell their voters, nah nah nah we'll not vote, we'll tell you how it's gonna be. Dictatorship takes many forms

A phone poll today states that 86% of Germans think the UK should now leave the EU. Over to you Mr Cameron

My rant also over

I think it was about the same percentage in 1939-45 as well Dave, that didn't go too well for Das Reich either!

It all boils down to cultural mentality. British people always have and would like to continue to stand alone. Germany wants to be the master of Europe and France will do whatever the occupying power tells it to. Forget economics it really is that simple. Take a phone poll in the UK and I think you would find the same percentage telling Europe to go forth and multiply.

My only real experience at practical level of "European co-operation" is the European Human Rights Act and that is a right Royal pain in the arse.

You stay over there drinking Schnapps eating your boiled cabbage and I'll stay here drinking Malt and eating roast Beef!

We've moved 66 yeears on John, i'm eating roast beef and drinking Malt if it pleases me, unfortunately i don't like Whisky old boy. You'll be mentioning the World cup next and how England won it 45 years ago

[azda 979]

Its slag off UK time.

However our meat,fish,vegetables and fruit are class leading.

Whisky,cider & real ale (IMO)are the worlds finest.

OK we don't mass produce anything,we get our electricity and soon to be Nuke Power from the French (EDF).

I go and have been all over the world but as a package UK suits me fine

Whisky? Lol, isn't that Scottish?

On a lighter note, i'm off to put my Wienachsts baum up

Old Annie made us take you as pets partners & BTW you're the navy blue and white diagonal bit on the Union Jack.

And your the wee red bit on the flag Peter.

[Peter 615]

Its slag off UK time.

However our meat,fish,vegetables and fruit are class leading.

Whisky,cider & real ale (IMO)are the worlds finest.

OK we don't mass produce anything,we get our electricity and soon to be Nuke Power from the French (EDF).

I go and have been all over the world but as a package UK suits me fine

Whisky? Lol, isn't that Scottish?

On a lighter note, i'm off to put my Wienachsts baum up

Old Annie made us take you as pets partners & BTW you're the navy blue and white diagonal bit on the Union Jack.

And your the wee red bit on the flag Peter.

Now don't make St George Cross.

The Scots are to blame for today's drug culture by putting E's on early 18C silver coins.

[Rob 3,152]

I'm in a bit of an unusual position here. From my perspective the only good thing to come out of the EU was my wife, and that didn't need any approval from Brussels. As she is German and we share similar views, I can understand fully the need to operate a financially tight ship. Everything that costs money in life boils down to money in, money out. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Don't throw good money after bad, and if you really want something, work harder. That mentality which is a national trait is why Germany should be dictating the terms of clearing up the present mess in the EU and why if they had run the show in the first place it wouldn't be where it is today. Cooperation is a good thing, but if you are paying for something, then you should be dictating the terms.

On the point made by Accumulator, "the political ideology of a bunch of European ex-domestic politicians looking to extend their career and legacy, rather than for any pragmatic reason, the EC was morphing from a free trade zone into the United States of Europe." says it all. The well trodden path of being voted out of office in your own country only to be given a larger trough in which to feast has happened in virtually every country. Do they really add multiples of their considered value in their home countries? I think not.

[Peckris 579]

I think it was about the same percentage in 1939-45 as well Dave, that didn't go too well for Das Reich either!

It all boils down to cultural mentality. British people always have and would like to continue to stand alone. Germany wants to be the master of Europe and France will do whatever the occupying power tells it to. Forget economics it really is that simple. Take a phone poll in the UK and I think you would find the same percentage telling Europe to go forth and multiply.

My only real experience at practical level of "European co-operation" is the European Human Rights Act and that is a right Royal pain in the arse.

You stay over there drinking Schnapps eating your boiled cabbage and I'll stay here drinking Malt and eating roast Beef!

Oh sure! Like leaving NATO uniterally? Like having a bunch of farmers who basically put two fingers up to the rest of Europe? Like insisting on the French language being respected and used whenever and wherever possible? I think not.

As for the Human Rights Act, thank heavens for it. Many a British citizen, pissed on by our own "justice" system, has had cause to live in gratitutde for its existence. The UK disabled may be among them soon, after the Arbeit Macht Frei coalition has done its worst.

[1949threepence 3,367]

I'm in a bit of an unusual position here. From my perspective the only good thing to come out of the EU was my wife, and that didn't need any approval from Brussels. As she is German and we share similar views, I can understand fully the need to operate a financially tight ship. Everything that costs money in life boils down to money in, money out. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Don't throw good money after bad, and if you really want something, work harder. That mentality which is a national trait is why Germany should be dictating the terms of clearing up the present mess in the EU and why if they had run the show in the first place it wouldn't be where it is today. Cooperation is a good thing, but if you are paying for something, then you should be dictating the terms.

On the point made by Accumulator, "the political ideology of a bunch of European ex-domestic politicians looking to extend their career and legacy, rather than for any pragmatic reason, the EC was morphing from a free trade zone into the United States of Europe." says it all. The well trodden path of being voted out of office in your own country only to be given a larger trough in which to feast has happened in virtually every country. Do they really add multiples of their considered value in their home countries? I think not.

Utter crap ~ you're talking about a country that not only started the worst war in history, but also suffered extreme hyperinflation back in 1923. I wouldn't have any confidence in them to run anything which was in any way related to our national interests. I suspect that the only interests they ultimately have, are their own.

[Rob 3,152]

I'm in a bit of an unusual position here. From my perspective the only good thing to come out of the EU was my wife, and that didn't need any approval from Brussels. As she is German and we share similar views, I can understand fully the need to operate a financially tight ship. Everything that costs money in life boils down to money in, money out. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Don't throw good money after bad, and if you really want something, work harder. That mentality which is a national trait is why Germany should be dictating the terms of clearing up the present mess in the EU and why if they had run the show in the first place it wouldn't be where it is today. Cooperation is a good thing, but if you are paying for something, then you should be dictating the terms.

On the point made by Accumulator, "the political ideology of a bunch of European ex-domestic politicians looking to extend their career and legacy, rather than for any pragmatic reason, the EC was morphing from a free trade zone into the United States of Europe." says it all. The well trodden path of being voted out of office in your own country only to be given a larger trough in which to feast has happened in virtually every country. Do they really add multiples of their considered value in their home countries? I think not.

Utter crap ~ you're talking about a country that not only started the worst war in history, but also suffered extreme hyperinflation back in 1923. I wouldn't have any confidence in them to run anything which was in any way related to our national interests. I suspect that the only interests they ultimately have, are their own.

I agree that they were responsible for various acts for which the nation appears to be forever damned, but a fundamental right is that nobody should be held responsible for the actions of another. If you do something, then you should carry the can. If I do something, you should not be held responsible. To hold the current generation responsible for the actions of their ancestors is no better than any other totalitarian system. If you genuinely believe that innocent people should effectively do time for the wrongs of others, then I'll see you inside for our joint and severally responsible stretch for introducing the concentration camp during the Boer War, or the Amritsar massacre, or the Peterloo massacre or the various acts that would be considered atrocities today over past centuries in Ireland. No country with any lengthy period of self-determination can hold its hands up and say we never did anything wrong.

It is the well documented events of the 1920s that ensured the memory of hyperinflation has not been lost, just as the large Jewish lobby ensures that our children continue to be taught about the holocaust. Apart from a few individuals in denial, nobody would argue that history is littered with wrongs, but somewhere along the line we all have to move on. My father spent the second half of WW2 building railways in Burma and hated the Japanese until the day he died. All the Japanese I have ever met in life, I have got on with very well. Am I wrong not to hate them? I don't think so.

As for national interests, I would hope they would look after their own, just as I would hope our government would look after ours. You can not rely on anyone to look after you before themselves. That also goes to the core of the problems with the EU. 27 national governments that are inconveniently tied to each other as a result of the incessant interference by the other 26 in the form of diarrhoeic legislation which may or may not be appropriate for an individual state. You can not have a workable system that is neither one thing nor the other. You either have a single Eurpoean state, or individual states with their own laws to suit and loosely tied by trade agreement, or relaxed border controls which is essentially what we signed up to many years ago. We did not sign up to a system that interferes with or even denies our capacity to sort out our own mess if required.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Rob

[argentumandcoins 70]

I think it was about the same percentage in 1939-45 as well Dave, that didn't go too well for Das Reich either!

It all boils down to cultural mentality. British people always have and would like to continue to stand alone. Germany wants to be the master of Europe and France will do whatever the occupying power tells it to. Forget economics it really is that simple. Take a phone poll in the UK and I think you would find the same percentage telling Europe to go forth and multiply.

My only real experience at practical level of "European co-operation" is the European Human Rights Act and that is a right Royal pain in the arse.

You stay over there drinking Schnapps eating your boiled cabbage and I'll stay here drinking Malt and eating roast Beef!

Oh sure! Like leaving NATO uniterally? Like having a bunch of farmers who basically put two fingers up to the rest of Europe? Like insisting on the French language being respected and used whenever and wherever possible? I think not.

As for the Human Rights Act, thank heavens for it. Many a British citizen, pissed on by our own "justice" system, has had cause to live in gratitutde for its existence. The UK disabled may be among them soon, after the Arbeit Macht Frei coalition has done its worst.

With all due respect Peck I was extracting the urine from Herr Azda in the first part of the reply. It's quite amusing to me that he is now more German than Jockinese.

The second (EHRC) was not a urine extraction. If you bother to look at it we already had all of it (in one form or another) in the UK constitution without signing up to a European convention.

More often than not the people "pissed on" in UK courts are the victims of crime.

Advances in forensic science will do way more to further British Justice than the application of any/all of the Act. I have no doubt that mistakes have been made in verdicts/sentencing in our Courts and they will continue to be made. That has sod all to do with the system, it's caused by the people in it. Humans are fallible and mistakes are and always will be made. On balance though I would much rather have my case heard in a Britsh court than in any other country in the world.

[azda 979]

I'm in a bit of an unusual position here. From my perspective the only good thing to come out of the EU was my wife, and that didn't need any approval from Brussels. As she is German and we share similar views, I can understand fully the need to operate a financially tight ship. Everything that costs money in life boils down to money in, money out. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Don't throw good money after bad, and if you really want something, work harder. That mentality which is a national trait is why Germany should be dictating the terms of clearing up the present mess in the EU and why if they had run the show in the first place it wouldn't be where it is today. Cooperation is a good thing, but if you are paying for something, then you should be dictating the terms.

On the point made by Accumulator, "the political ideology of a bunch of European ex-domestic politicians looking to extend their career and legacy, rather than for any pragmatic reason, the EC was morphing from a free trade zone into the United States of Europe." says it all. The well trodden path of being voted out of office in your own country only to be given a larger trough in which to feast has happened in virtually every country. Do they really add multiples of their considered value in their home countries? I think not.

Utter crap ~ you're talking about a country that not only started the worst war in history, but also suffered extreme hyperinflation back in 1923. I wouldn't have any confidence in them to run anything which was in any way related to our national interests. I suspect that the only interests they ultimately have, are their own.

Ok, i'm not going to dismiss what Germany did during the both wars, but what you seem to be forgetting, did England not try and take several lands during their history? American, India etc.

It still holds the Falklands, some 10,000 miles away and went to war to keep it. The UK has not such a different history as Germany if you really think about it, they were taking and trying to take over countries by means of war throught the ages. The only difference is the atrocities that happened during the 2nd War which is why Germany will NEVER be left to forget (and so they should'nt be) but why make a different generation pay for the actions of a dictator?

There's not a lot said anymore about Pol Phott, Idi Amin, Slobodan Milosovic etc (Molosovic being in Europe) yet those commited huge atrocities against ethnic minorities also.

And to reply to John.

I'm not more German than Scottish, but we were talking about cash at the start of the thread and then it got onto Germany dictating terms, i was merely sticking up for them in the respect that i'm dishing out huge taxes here in order that the Euro is basically saved from going tits up and defending their stance on dictating terms. Anyone who loans ANYONE cash will expect certains terms to the loan, like any bank would say to you, "ok you want a loan, here's what you WILL pay back monthly" you have no choice but to accept their terms IF you want that cash.

Then i just basically laugh at the UK and Cameron when he says he wants a say on the Euro and whats happening, why? He's not wanting to join it, so why should he say anything, he wants to be important in the EU and unfortunately as i've been saying all along, the UK is not an important figure in the EU as it thinks it is.

Edited December 11, 2011 by azda

[Colin G. 147]

Then i just basically laugh at the UK and Cameron when he says he wants a say on the Euro and whats happening, why? He's not wanting to join it, so why should he say anything, he wants to be important in the EU and unfortunately as i've been saying all along, the UK is not an important figure in the EU as it thinks it is.

But that is the point, happy enough to have us involved when it suits, but when we are not wanted, we are expected to sit in the corner quietly and just nod.

I do not believe that the vast majority of this country wants a say in what happens in Europe, and would quite happily distance itself if it could, and as for the consequences, well at least we would be chosing our own fate for once!!

One of the reasons we can not sort the mess out that we are in is because we are tied by rules imposed from elsewhere. Rules that are created with no common aim. Just like the approach when trying to resolve the crisis they are in, it is not a case of the best solution for the crisis, but the best solution for each individual country.....and the bigger boys get the biggest say. Union....don't make me laugh....

[azda 979]

Then i just basically laugh at the UK and Cameron when he says he wants a say on the Euro and whats happening, why? He's not wanting to join it, so why should he say anything, he wants to be important in the EU and unfortunately as i've been saying all along, the UK is not an important figure in the EU as it thinks it is.

But that is the point, happy enough to have us involved when it suits, but when we are not wanted, we are expected to sit in the corner quietly and just nod.

I do not believe that the vast majority of this country wants a say in what happens in Europe, and would quite happily distance itself if it could, and as for the consequences, well at least we would be chosing our own fate for once!!

One of the reasons we can not sort the mess out that we are in is because we are tied by rules imposed from elsewhere. Rules that are created with no common aim. Just like the approach when trying to resolve the crisis they are in, it is not a case of the best solution for the crisis, but the best solution for each individual country.....and the bigger boys get the biggest say. Union....don't make me laugh....

But surely this is where Cameron fell apart, he said initially there would be a referendum on Europe, then after being elected went back on it as is normal for any Government that gets elected. It would be in the best intrests of the UK population if they were once and for all allowed to vote for or against. Now saying that, i hear now Mr Nick Clegg is extremely pissed at Cameron vetoing, a Government who is clearly is dissaray on Europe. Let the people vote and get on with it is what i say.

Colin the only problem has been from Cameron, he wanted a say on what was happening on the Euro, but because the UK is not in the Euro the rest said it's basically nothing to do with you, go sit in your corner, which personally i totally agree with, thats when he took the huff.

Edited December 11, 2011 by azda

[Peckris 579]

I agree that they were responsible for various acts for which the nation appears to be forever damned, but a fundamental right is that nobody should be held responsible for the actions of another. If you do something, then you should carry the can. If I do something, you should not be held responsible. To hold the current generation responsible for the actions of their ancestors is no better than any other totalitarian system. If you genuinely believe that innocent people should effectively do time for the wrongs of others, then I'll see you inside for our joint and severally responsible stretch for introducing the concentration camp during the Boer War, or the Amritsar massacre, or the Peterloo massacre or the various acts that would be considered atrocities today over past centuries in Ireland. No country with any lengthy period of self-determination can hold its hands up and say we never did anything wrong.

It is the well documented events of the 1920s that ensured the memory of hyperinflation has not been lost, just as the large Jewish lobby ensures that our children continue to be taught about the holocaust. Apart from a few individuals in denial, nobody would argue that history is littered with wrongs, but somewhere along the line we all have to move on. My father spent the second half of WW2 building railways in Burma and hated the Japanese until the day he died. All the Japanese I have ever met in life, I have got on with very well. Am I wrong not to hate them? I don't think so.

As for national interests, I would hope they would look after their own, just as I would hope our government would look after ours. You can not rely on anyone to look after you before themselves. That also goes to the core of the problems with the EU. 27 national governments that are inconveniently tied to each other as a result of the incessant interference by the other 26 in the form of diarrhoeic legislation which may or may not be appropriate for an individual state. You can not have a workable system that is neither one thing nor the other. You either have a single Eurpoean state, or individual states with their own laws to suit and loosely tied by trade agreement, or relaxed border controls which is essentially what we signed up to many years ago. We did not sign up to a system that interferes with or even denies our capacity to sort out our own mess if required.

Hear hear. Very well said. No nation should be damned in perpetuity for the 'sins of its forefathers'. (Not forgetting of course that it was "our" - The Allies -actions in the punitive Treaty of Versailles after WW1 - against a German government that didn't even exist at the outbreak of war - that led in a very large part to WW2).

More often than not the people "pissed on" in UK courts are the victims of crime.

Advances in forensic science will do way more to further British Justice than the application of any/all of the Act. I have no doubt that mistakes have been made in verdicts/sentencing in our Courts and they will continue to be made. That has sod all to do with the system, it's caused by the people in it. Humans are fallible and mistakes are and always will be made. On balance though I would much rather have my case heard in a Britsh court than in any other country in the world.

Oh I would go along with that - our independent judiciary is worth a very great deal. I suppose what I meant was, that where a Government passes unjust laws (e.g. the worst excesses of the current Welfare Reform Bill where the rights of disabled people to a dignified life on the same footing with everyone else in society but with extra financial support for the fact they are disabled, are being thrown out), there will be some protection from the ECHR. When I said "pissed on by our justice system" I think that's what I really meant. The Courts are indeed notorious for a few well-publicised cases of miscarriages of justice, but in every case it was the jury verdict rather than the legal system itself.

[Accumulator 52]

I accept that there are different views on this, but what I find difficult to swallow are the two Edwards, Millibandwagon and Balls (a short description as much as a name), saying that they would have done 'better for Britain' than DC on Thursday night. Though never actually offering a single alternative strategy. It's much the same with Nick 'have you got a job for me Dave' Clegg. Over the last few months the ardent Europhiles have discovered that their pan-European dream is about as workable as a beachwear business at the north pole and frankly have nowhere to hide their embarrassment.

[Rob 3,152]

I accept that there are different views on this, but what I find difficult to swallow are the two Edwards, Millibandwagon and Balls (a short description as much as a name), saying that they would have done 'better for Britain' than DC on Thursday night. Though never actually offering a single alternative strategy. It's much the same with Nick 'have you got a job for me Dave' Clegg. Over the last few months the ardent Europhiles have discovered that their pan-European dream is about as workable as a beachwear business at the north pole and frankly have nowhere to hide their embarrassment.

I suspect there is little or no embarrassment to hide at the north pole - not that I wish to find out.

[azda 979]

I accept that there are different views on this, but what I find difficult to swallow are the two Edwards, Millibandwagon and Balls (a short description as much as a name), saying that they would have done 'better for Britain' than DC on Thursday night. Though never actually offering a single alternative strategy. It's much the same with Nick 'have you got a job for me Dave' Clegg. Over the last few months the ardent Europhiles have discovered that their pan-European dream is about as workable as a beachwear business at the north pole and frankly have nowhere to hide their embarrassment.

As i said, let the people of the UK decide instead of the muppets who have been in power for the last 20 years or more, they're all as bad as one another, but as you can see, even opinion on here is divided, so i guess it would be a tight vote.