Preventing Toning (especially of Silver)?

[Oxford_Collector 0]

I have a small collection of silver coins, mostly 1816-1920 British silver (mostly late Victorian onwards), though also a small collection of pre-1965 US silver coinage and some modern bullion silver 1 OZ coins. Most of these coins have no or minimal toning (which is how I prefer them), and I don't think any of them have been cleaned (or if they have been, not obviously), but a small number of coins that I bought untoned, including what was a BUNC 1917 3D and some shillings of around the same vintage *have* become quite heavily darkly toned after just a few years of ownership. What tips do people have to prevent silver from toning? Most of my coins are now kept in 2x2 self-adhesive acid-free cardboard flips with a mylar "window", and then these are stored in Numis coin albums (am not sure if the coin album pages are PVC or not, but was thinking this shouldn't be an issue if the coins are in the 2x2s?). The coin albums are kept in a cardboard box (not sure if this is acid-free or not) into which I've put loads of silica gel sachets to try to absorb moisture. The room in which the coins are kept is reasonably cool and dry.

I like the 2x2s for safe ease of handling of the coins, but is it okay to keep silver coins in these, especially if the 2x2s are then put into a (possibly PVC) album? Does putting silica gel sachets amongst the coin albums make any sense or is this pointless? I can't afford (or have space for) a "proper" coin cabinet, and would prefer to keep the coins in 2x2s and in albums if possible, but want these to be off the "safest" sort for long term storage. Also, does the box that the albums live in need be made of special "archival-quality" acid-free cardboard? What other tips do people have for preventing silver coins from toning? Thanks!

As for the toned 3D coin and shillings, is there anything gentle that can be done to remove to toning, or is anything I do likely to do more harm than good? Thanks!

[azda 979]

I have a small collection of silver coins, mostly 1816-1920 British silver (mostly late Victorian onwards), though also a small collection of pre-1965 US silver coinage and some modern bullion silver 1 OZ coins. Most of these coins have no or minimal toning (which is how I prefer them), and I don't think any of them have been cleaned (or if they have been, not obviously), but a small number of coins that I bought untoned, including what was a BUNC 1917 3D and some shillings of around the same vintage *have* become quite heavily darkly toned after just a few years of ownership. What tips do people have to prevent silver from toning? Most of my coins are now kept in 2x2 self-adhesive acid-free cardboard flips with a mylar "window", and then these are stored in Numis coin albums (am not sure if the coin album pages are PVC or not, but was thinking this shouldn't be an issue if the coins are in the 2x2s?). The coin albums are kept in a cardboard box (not sure if this is acid-free or not) into which I've put loads of silica gel sachets to try to absorb moisture. The room in which the coins are kept is reasonably cool and dry.

I like the 2x2s for safe ease of handling of the coins, but is it okay to keep silver coins in these, especially if the 2x2s are then put into a (possibly PVC) album? Does putting silica gel sachets amongst the coin albums make any sense or is this pointless? I can't afford (or have space for) a "proper" coin cabinet, and would prefer to keep the coins in 2x2s and in albums if possible, but want these to be off the "safest" sort for long term storage. Also, does the box that the albums live in need be made of special "archival-quality" acid-free cardboard? What other tips do people have for preventing silver coins from toning? Thanks!

As for the toned 3D coin and shillings, is there anything gentle that can be done to remove to toning, or is anything I do likely to do more harm than good? Thanks!

Toning occurs naturally over a long period of time, cleaning toned coins in my opinion would only devalue it because you cannot clean every bit of the coin IE the LEGENDS, so a cleaned coin would be easier to spot. A toned coin basically states that the coin has not been cleaned, some people love toning on coins (Americans are notorious lovers of these) they even artificiallly tone them to try and increase their price so such an extent that its actually ugly. There is a huge difference between naturally toned coins and artificial toning.

My opinion and advice would be to leave them to grow old gracefully.

[Gollum 2]

I have a small collection of silver coins, mostly 1816-1920 British silver (mostly late Victorian onwards), though also a small collection of pre-1965 US silver coinage and some modern bullion silver 1 OZ coins. Most of these coins have no or minimal toning (which is how I prefer them), and I don't think any of them have been cleaned (or if they have been, not obviously), but a small number of coins that I bought untoned, including what was a BUNC 1917 3D and some shillings of around the same vintage *have* become quite heavily darkly toned after just a few years of ownership. What tips do people have to prevent silver from toning? Most of my coins are now kept in 2x2 self-adhesive acid-free cardboard flips with a mylar "window", and then these are stored in Numis coin albums (am not sure if the coin album pages are PVC or not, but was thinking this shouldn't be an issue if the coins are in the 2x2s?). The coin albums are kept in a cardboard box (not sure if this is acid-free or not) into which I've put loads of silica gel sachets to try to absorb moisture. The room in which the coins are kept is reasonably cool and dry.

I like the 2x2s for safe ease of handling of the coins, but is it okay to keep silver coins in these, especially if the 2x2s are then put into a (possibly PVC) album? Does putting silica gel sachets amongst the coin albums make any sense or is this pointless? I can't afford (or have space for) a "proper" coin cabinet, and would prefer to keep the coins in 2x2s and in albums if possible, but want these to be off the "safest" sort for long term storage. Also, does the box that the albums live in need be made of special "archival-quality" acid-free cardboard? What other tips do people have for preventing silver coins from toning? Thanks!

As for the toned 3D coin and shillings, is there anything gentle that can be done to remove to toning, or is anything I do likely to do more harm than good? Thanks!

Toning occurs naturally over a long period of time, cleaning toned coins in my opinion would only devalue it because you cannot clean every bit of the coin IE the LEGENDS, so a cleaned coin would be easier to spot. A toned coin basically states that the coin has not been cleaned, some people love toning on coins (Americans are notorious lovers of these) they even artificiallly tone them to try and increase their price so such an extent that its actually ugly. There is a huge difference between naturally toned coins and artificial toning.

My opinion and advice would be to leave them to grow old gracefully.

I tried to clean my pennies with Acetone as I have some here and I spotted Vicky I think it was saying about it to someone, their worthless so no harm done but I would not do it otherwise, and it failed miserably. I do however have a halfpenny from about 1959 that has a lovely dark gold/brown tone to it and no hairlines so I don't think it has been cleaned. Even though it is a recent coin I think it is pretty even with the tone but I wouldn't like to artificially tone them if I knew how. I was tempted to clean my silver sixpences just to make them shine that little bit more but I resisted when Peter I think it was told me not to, wisdom comes with age and Peter seems old .

[TomGoodheart 400]

I prefer toned silver, as I believe do most Brits. However I believe Germans rather like the shiny look for things like their 10DM coins and seem to remember that one of the firms there makes a sort of lacquer that will stop toning. Ah, yeah, it's Lindner: Coin Preserver Says it's not a lacquer but I believe it still 'preserves' by coating the coin and stopping the air getting to the surface. If you want to remove it, you'll need the equivalent remover.

Chris, the owner of this forum, is a stockist for Lindner. Don't know if he can get some for you? Maybe pm him? (Chris Perkins)

[Oxford_Collector 0]

I prefer toned silver, as I believe do most Brits. However I believe Germans rather like the shiny look for things like their 10DM coins and seem to remember that one of the firms there makes a sort of lacquer that will stop toning. Ah, yeah, it's Lindner: Coin Preserver Says it's not a lacquer but I believe it still 'preserves' by coating the coin and stopping the air getting to the surface. If you want to remove it, you'll need the equivalent remover.

Chris, the owner of this forum, is a stockist for Lindner. Don't know if he can get some for you? Maybe pm him? (Chris Perkins)

Thanks, I'll investigate, though it sounds a little drastic. Another option I guess is for something like the Intercept Shieldsystem, though they only seem to do either boxes for NGC/PCGS slabs or 2x2s for individual US coins or albums for US coins. Mind you, US coins are the "dark side" of my coin collecting habit, so might be useful for me...

[Peckris 579]

I have a small collection of silver coins, mostly 1816-1920 British silver (mostly late Victorian onwards), though also a small collection of pre-1965 US silver coinage and some modern bullion silver 1 OZ coins. Most of these coins have no or minimal toning (which is how I prefer them), and I don't think any of them have been cleaned (or if they have been, not obviously), but a small number of coins that I bought untoned, including what was a BUNC 1917 3D and some shillings of around the same vintage *have* become quite heavily darkly toned after just a few years of ownership. What tips do people have to prevent silver from toning? Most of my coins are now kept in 2x2 self-adhesive acid-free cardboard flips with a mylar "window", and then these are stored in Numis coin albums (am not sure if the coin album pages are PVC or not, but was thinking this shouldn't be an issue if the coins are in the 2x2s?). The coin albums are kept in a cardboard box (not sure if this is acid-free or not) into which I've put loads of silica gel sachets to try to absorb moisture. The room in which the coins are kept is reasonably cool and dry.

I like the 2x2s for safe ease of handling of the coins, but is it okay to keep silver coins in these, especially if the 2x2s are then put into a (possibly PVC) album? Does putting silica gel sachets amongst the coin albums make any sense or is this pointless? I can't afford (or have space for) a "proper" coin cabinet, and would prefer to keep the coins in 2x2s and in albums if possible, but want these to be off the "safest" sort for long term storage. Also, does the box that the albums live in need be made of special "archival-quality" acid-free cardboard? What other tips do people have for preventing silver coins from toning? Thanks!

As for the toned 3D coin and shillings, is there anything gentle that can be done to remove to toning, or is anything I do likely to do more harm than good? Thanks!

What I'm going to suggest is risky, and will incur general disapproval. However, if you really hate toning, it may be worth a try (but experiment on your least value coin first). The answer is "silver dip". Yes, the same silver dip that so many warn about and that ruins so many good silver coins.

If you do it right, however, there should be very little problem. The right way is to DIP FOR ONLY A FEW SECONDS. In other words, lower the coin gently into the dip solution, watch it like a hawk and take it out again after no more than around 10 seconds. Coins are ruined by leaving in dip for far too long - even overnight! A few seconds should remove the worst of the toning if not all. Rinse off thoroughly and dab dry using a micro-cloth or clean towel. Don't repeat!

The alternative is to get to love toning - I was like you about 15 years ago and even sent back a 1927 proof set that was toned deep blue and exchanged it for one with no toning. Nowadays I love good toning.

[DaveG38 405]

Any silver collector needs to get to love toning, because there isn't much you can do to stop it. It's nothing more than a microscopic layer of silver sulphide forming on the surface of the coin, due to the interaction of the silver with hydrogen sulphide in the atmosphere. You could store coins in hermetically sealed, inert gas filled containers I guess, but that seems a little drastic.

Equally less helpful suggestions would be to look at the neighbourhood where you live and assess any industry in the area. Downwind of coal fired power stations even hundreds of miles awy would be a no-no, as would downwind of almost any industrial burning process, since they all pretty much spew out some hydrogen sulphide, no matter how good the scrubbers are. If this is your neighbourhood, then move - Cornwall wouldn't be a bad option due to the prevailing SW clean Atlantic winds.

Not very practical, so most of us have to put up with toning. I don't know if there have been any studies of this, but I would guess that most highly toned 19th century and earlier coins spent most of their lives in the industrial north, where sulphide levels were high, as compared to coins which circulated in the south. I've got a EF 1817 halfcrown, which is almost black and must have spent its limited circulating life in a drawer in a house next to a factory!

[Oxford_Collector 0]

Thanks for all the information, I do realise that toning is perhaps inevitable for silver coins, especially for pre-20th Century ones, but I really would like the do what I can (within reason) to slow the toning process for coins that I have bought untoned or with minimal toning, and in most cases, I don't think I really want to resort to dipping. Would keeping the coins in a airtight box help? Or would this cause more harm than good if, say, the box was plastic?? Does using silica gel sachets to try to keep moisture out actually make any difference? Has anyone tried using the InterceptShield products or similar? Any other tips remaining? Thanks again.

[Peckris 579]

Thanks for all the information, I do realise that toning is perhaps inevitable for silver coins, especially for pre-20th Century ones, but I really would like the do what I can (within reason) to slow the toning process for coins that I have bought untoned or with minimal toning, and in most cases, I don't think I really want to resort to dipping. Would keeping the coins in a airtight box help? Or would this cause more harm than good if, say, the box was plastic?? Does using silica gel sachets to try to keep moisture out actually make any difference? Has anyone tried using the InterceptShield products or similar? Any other tips remaining? Thanks again.

Silica gel does help, but every now and then you have to gently bake the sachets to remove the moisture they've attracted. As for preventing toning, good plastic envelopes (i.e. non-PVC) are usually effective, but do watch them regularly for 'sweating'. I have two mahogany cabinets : in the one with trays that have coin-size cut outs, I don't see additional toning, but in the one that has trays with no cut outs, yes, there is toning. So if you ever go down the cabinet route, make sure you get one where the trays have cut outs to hold the coins.

[Red Riley 2]

I've got a EF 1817 halfcrown, which is almost black and must have spent its limited circulating life in a drawer in a house next to a factory!

I was told that coins being kept for any length of time in something leather such as a purse can cause this extreme toning effect.

[Oxford_Collector 0]

Am thinking about maybe trying these "RP Oxygen Absorbing Scavengers" in the boxes where my coins are stored: - they sound like the next step up from silica gel sachets:

http://www.conservation-by-design.co.uk/category.aspx?id=405

"Mitsubishi RPA ‘stops the clock’ on the sources of corrosion and oxidation of metals through a chemical reaction that removes oxygen, moisture and corrosive gases from sealed containers. It is used in metal conservation and other applications where a low RH is required"

[TomGoodheart 400]

Am thinking about maybe trying these "RP Oxygen Absorbing Scavengers" in the boxes where my coins are stored: - they sound like the next step up from silica gel sachets:

http://www.conservation-by-design.co.uk/category.aspx?id=405

"Mitsubishi RPA ‘stops the clock’ on the sources of corrosion and oxidation of metals through a chemical reaction that removes oxygen, moisture and corrosive gases from sealed containers. It is used in metal conservation and other applications where a low RH is required"

All sounds a bit extreme to me! And wouldn't you be worrying every time you open the box or whatever to look at your coins that those few seconds might start the 'rot' again? Easier to dip them in a removable coating if you're that worried if you ask me ...

.. of course, I'd still recommend getting used to the natural changes coins go through with the passage of time, meself!

[Coinery 1,148]

I've got a EF 1817 halfcrown, which is almost black and must have spent its limited circulating life in a drawer in a house next to a factory!

I was told that coins being kept for any length of time in something leather such as a purse can cause this extreme toning effect.

I'm not a 100% certain, but aren't sulphates involved in the tanning of leather?

[Coinery 1,148]

I really don't understand the BU collectors. I like collecting coins because of their historical significance, and the romance of times past, therefore I like coins to look their age and toning is that indicator.

All that remains for me then, is to seek out the beauty in a coin which, of course, means well struck in the highest grade, and with as much lustre as possible, that has been overtoned in a balanced, and aesthetically pleasing way. This I think is the art and beauty of coins.

I bought two duplicate copper half pennies a couple of year's ago...one was a totally unblemished full-lustre, and the other an overtoned coin, where the lustre was just shimmering through the toning, making for a richness in colour that had the impact on me of a stunning sunset. The sad thing is, the toned one was worth less as an investment which, as I mentioned in another thread, adds another dimension to the passion that is coin collecting, and is important to me. It's that aspect of living that we all enjoy, getting a bargain, part of collecting, I think!

Anyway, my personal dilemma is, that to buy the very best, I have to buy coins that I don't actually like that much. I have to stick to the lesser valued toned uncirculated.

Damn it, why doesn't the whole world value quality toned coins? Then THEY would be the premium prized coins instead!

[Oxford_Collector 0]

I really don't understand the BU collectors. I like collecting coins because of their historical significance, and the romance of times past, therefore I like coins to look their age and toning is that indicator.

All that remains for me then, is to seek out the beauty in a coin which, of course, means well struck in the highest grade, and with as much lustre as possible, that has been overtoned in a balanced, and aesthetically pleasing way. This I think is the art and beauty of coins.

I can totally see where you're coming from, and would not necessarily expect all my coins to be untoned, especially opre-20th century specimens, but for more recent examples, such as my pre-1965 US silver and George V silver, which I've so far mostly bought untoned, would prefer them to remain that way. I also agree some toning can be appealing, for example I have an uncirculated 1914 sixpence which has full lustre, but also a tinge of very attractive golden toning (was like this when I bought it), whereas the 1917 3D I mentioned has had some of its lustre now obscured by patchy black toning, which really doesn't look so great IMHO.

[Rob 3,152]

It's a good job that we don't all collect the same things. If we did, the market for the acceptable would be unaffordable and the vast majority would be uncollectable.

[TomGoodheart 400]

Anyway, my personal dilemma is, that to buy the very best, I have to buy coins that I don't actually like that much. I have to stick to the lesser valued toned uncirculated.

Yeah, I get this. In the end, I collect coins I like. The fact that they are 'cheaper' is a bonus and the fact that they won't sell for as much is something I can just leave to fret about until the day comes when I need to part with them.

Even if I had the funds, perfect/proof/fine work pieces are only of interest to me as a reference when grading. I simply can't see the point of buying things that I won't enjoy owning. And I happen to like the quirkiness of hammered coins that show that they were hand made and have been around for a couple of centuries.

If people only bought things 'of value' few would collect minor varieties, die numbers, pub tokens, bottle tops, whatever, the world would be less interesting and as Rob says, the cost would be crazy!

[DaveG38 405]

I've got a EF 1817 halfcrown, which is almost black and must have spent its limited circulating life in a drawer in a house next to a factory!

I was told that coins being kept for any length of time in something leather such as a purse can cause this extreme toning effect.

I'm not a 100% certain, but aren't sulphates involved in the tanning of leather?

Yep, Ferric Sulphate, Fe2SO4 also known as Copperas.

[Coinery 1,148]

I really don't understand the BU collectors. I like collecting coins because of their historical significance, and the romance of times past, therefore I like coins to look their age and toning is that indicator.

All that remains for me then, is to seek out the beauty in a coin which, of course, means well struck in the highest grade, and with as much lustre as possible, that has been overtoned in a balanced, and aesthetically pleasing way. This I think is the art and beauty of coins.

I can totally see where you're coming from, and would not necessarily expect all my coins to be untoned, especially opre-20th century specimens, but for more recent examples, such as my pre-1965 US silver and George V silver, which I've so far mostly bought untoned, would prefer them to remain that way. I also agree some toning can be appealing, for example I have an uncirculated 1914 sixpence which has full lustre, but also a tinge of very attractive golden toning (was like this when I bought it), whereas the 1917 3D I mentioned has had some of its lustre now obscured by patchy black toning, which really doesn't look so great IMHO.

Totally understood, even a nicely toned coin can look less desirable (to me) if it continues to tone...could quite possibly get patchy too. I guess, if I think about it, I wouldn't want a black geo 6 coin!

[TomGoodheart 400]

Totally understood, even a nicely toned coin can look less desirable (to me) if it continues to tone...could quite possibly get patchy too. I guess, if I think about it, I wouldn't want a black geo 6 coin!

Sometimes you just have to accept what's available. This is pretty close to as it is. It's perhaps a little more colourful than in the hand, where it's velvety black. But it's also round, crisp and has the scarcer of the two reverses.

Plus to my eye, it's quite attractive, though I can understand it's not to everyone's taste.

Edited January 14, 2012 by TomGoodheart

[Peckris 579]

I really don't understand the BU collectors. I like collecting coins because of their historical significance, and the romance of times past, therefore I like coins to look their age and toning is that indicator.

All that remains for me then, is to seek out the beauty in a coin which, of course, means well struck in the highest grade, and with as much lustre as possible, that has been overtoned in a balanced, and aesthetically pleasing way. This I think is the art and beauty of coins.

I bought two duplicate copper half pennies a couple of year's ago...one was a totally unblemished full-lustre, and the other an overtoned coin, where the lustre was just shimmering through the toning, making for a richness in colour that had the impact on me of a stunning sunset. The sad thing is, the toned one was worth less as an investment which, as I mentioned in another thread, adds another dimension to the passion that is coin collecting, and is important to me. It's that aspect of living that we all enjoy, getting a bargain, part of collecting, I think!

Anyway, my personal dilemma is, that to buy the very best, I have to buy coins that I don't actually like that much. I have to stick to the lesser valued toned uncirculated.

Damn it, why doesn't the whole world value quality toned coins? Then THEY would be the premium prized coins instead!

I totally agree. I'd much rather have a coin with even patina than with patchy uneven lustre. Take this 1862 penny (ignore the horrible scan - it looks great in hand; dark glistening virtually prooflike fields and such sharp edges I've sometimes wondered if ...) : it would value less than a BU example which I can kind of understand, but it would even fetch less than one with patchy lustre, which is just stupid.

[Coinery 1,148]

Totally understood, even a nicely toned coin can look less desirable (to me) if it continues to tone...could quite possibly get patchy too. I guess, if I think about it, I wouldn't want a black geo 6 coin!

Sometimes you just have to accept what's available. This is pretty close to as it is. It's perhaps a little more colourful than in the hand, where it's velvety black. But it's also round, crisp and has the scarcer of the two reverses.

Plus to my eye, it's quite attractive, though I can understand it's not to everyone's taste.

I like it! Looks like it's been around a while...just as it should do!

[Coinery 1,148]

I really don't understand the BU collectors. I like collecting coins because of their historical significance, and the romance of times past, therefore I like coins to look their age and toning is that indicator.

All that remains for me then, is to seek out the beauty in a coin which, of course, means well struck in the highest grade, and with as much lustre as possible, that has been overtoned in a balanced, and aesthetically pleasing way. This I think is the art and beauty of coins.

I bought two duplicate copper half pennies a couple of year's ago...one was a totally unblemished full-lustre, and the other an overtoned coin, where the lustre was just shimmering through the toning, making for a richness in colour that had the impact on me of a stunning sunset. The sad thing is, the toned one was worth less as an investment which, as I mentioned in another thread, adds another dimension to the passion that is coin collecting, and is important to me. It's that aspect of living that we all enjoy, getting a bargain, part of collecting, I think!

Anyway, my personal dilemma is, that to buy the very best, I have to buy coins that I don't actually like that much. I have to stick to the lesser valued toned uncirculated.

Damn it, why doesn't the whole world value quality toned coins? Then THEY would be the premium prized coins instead!

I totally agree. I'd much rather have a coin with even patina than with patchy uneven lustre. Take this 1862 penny (ignore the horrible scan - it looks great in hand; dark glistening virtually prooflike fields and such sharp edges I've sometimes wondered if ...) : it would value less than a BU example which I can kind of understand, but it would even fetch less than one with patchy lustre, which is just stupid.

Just how I like a coin to look, and a good enough scan to see the sharpness of hair and fingers! I absolutely could not collect anything different. That's not to say I wouldn't buy different...I just wouldn't look at them and sail away to faraway thoughts and imaginings, as I often do with the coins I love!

[Peckris 579]

I really don't understand the BU collectors. I like collecting coins because of their historical significance, and the romance of times past, therefore I like coins to look their age and toning is that indicator.

All that remains for me then, is to seek out the beauty in a coin which, of course, means well struck in the highest grade, and with as much lustre as possible, that has been overtoned in a balanced, and aesthetically pleasing way. This I think is the art and beauty of coins.

I bought two duplicate copper half pennies a couple of year's ago...one was a totally unblemished full-lustre, and the other an overtoned coin, where the lustre was just shimmering through the toning, making for a richness in colour that had the impact on me of a stunning sunset. The sad thing is, the toned one was worth less as an investment which, as I mentioned in another thread, adds another dimension to the passion that is coin collecting, and is important to me. It's that aspect of living that we all enjoy, getting a bargain, part of collecting, I think!

Anyway, my personal dilemma is, that to buy the very best, I have to buy coins that I don't actually like that much. I have to stick to the lesser valued toned uncirculated.

Damn it, why doesn't the whole world value quality toned coins? Then THEY would be the premium prized coins instead!

I totally agree. I'd much rather have a coin with even patina than with patchy uneven lustre. Take this 1862 penny (ignore the horrible scan - it looks great in hand; dark glistening virtually prooflike fields and such sharp edges I've sometimes wondered if ...) : it would value less than a BU example which I can kind of understand, but it would even fetch less than one with patchy lustre, which is just stupid.

Just how I like a coin to look, and a good enough scan to see the sharpness of hair and fingers! I absolutely could not collect anything different. That's not to say I wouldn't buy different...I just wouldn't look at them and sail away to faraway thoughts and imaginings, as I often do with the coins I love!

Thanks! You won't believe it, but I got that penny in the mid-1990s from the Midland Fair ... from a dealer who clearly didn't appreciate it : it was in his £1 box.

[Coinery 1,148]

I really don't understand the BU collectors. I like collecting coins because of their historical significance, and the romance of times past, therefore I like coins to look their age and toning is that indicator.

All that remains for me then, is to seek out the beauty in a coin which, of course, means well struck in the highest grade, and with as much lustre as possible, that has been overtoned in a balanced, and aesthetically pleasing way. This I think is the art and beauty of coins.

I bought two duplicate copper half pennies a couple of year's ago...one was a totally unblemished full-lustre, and the other an overtoned coin, where the lustre was just shimmering through the toning, making for a richness in colour that had the impact on me of a stunning sunset. The sad thing is, the toned one was worth less as an investment which, as I mentioned in another thread, adds another dimension to the passion that is coin collecting, and is important to me. It's that aspect of living that we all enjoy, getting a bargain, part of collecting, I think!

Anyway, my personal dilemma is, that to buy the very best, I have to buy coins that I don't actually like that much. I have to stick to the lesser valued toned uncirculated.

Damn it, why doesn't the whole world value quality toned coins? Then THEY would be the premium prized coins instead!

I totally agree. I'd much rather have a coin with even patina than with patchy uneven lustre. Take this 1862 penny (ignore the horrible scan - it looks great in hand; dark glistening virtually prooflike fields and such sharp edges I've sometimes wondered if ...) : it would value less than a BU example which I can kind of understand, but it would even fetch less than one with patchy lustre, which is just stupid.

Just how I like a coin to look, and a good enough scan to see the sharpness of hair and fingers! I absolutely could not collect anything different. That's not to say I wouldn't buy different...I just wouldn't look at them and sail away to faraway thoughts and imaginings, as I often do with the coins I love!

Thanks! You won't believe it, but I got that penny in the mid-1990s from the Midland Fair ... from a dealer who clearly didn't appreciate it : it was in his £1 box.

Crikey, those days are long gone! Every joe in the street thinks he's won the lottery if he stumbles across any grade of penny in his grandma's sock drawer.