Coin Confiscation

[Gollum 2]

Let us say that hypoheticaly I had a number of coins from America that if they were held by a US citizen in that country could or would be confiscated by their SS, would the same coins be confiscated from me in this country, would the USA send SS men to take them of off me, or can they not do that here. I ask because I saw something about coins being confiscated in America !. Bit naughty of them doing that.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Gollum

[Peckris 579]

Let us say that hypoheticaly I had a number of coins from America that if they were held by a US citizen in that country could or would be confiscated by their SS, would the same coins be confiscated from me in this country, would the USA send SS men to take them of off me, or can they not do that here. I ask because I saw something about coins being confiscated in America !. Bit naughty of them doing that.

Once upon a time you could only hold a small number of gold coins here without a licence but those days are gone. Hypothetically any counterfeit coins could be confiscated but it simply doesn't happen, unless you're the counterfeiter.

[Gollum 2]

Let us say that hypoheticaly I had a number of coins from America that if they were held by a US citizen in that country could or would be confiscated by their SS, would the same coins be confiscated from me in this country, would the USA send SS men to take them of off me, or can they not do that here. I ask because I saw something about coins being confiscated in America !. Bit naughty of them doing that.

Once upon a time you could only hold a small number of gold coins here without a licence but those days are gone. Hypothetically any counterfeit coins could be confiscated but it simply doesn't happen, unless you're the counterfeiter.

I was actually reffering to such coins as the ( excuse me if I spell it wrong !) st gaudens dollars that were allegedly found in a safety box, or the American 1974 aluminum penny. According to a site i was reading, if you have one the secret service will pay you a visit as they were never officialy circulated.

[Rob 3,152]

I thought you were going to talk about the rights and wrongs of the seizure and arrest at the NY auction on the 3rd of this month.

[Gollum 2]

I thought you were going to talk about the rights and wrongs of the seizure and arrest at the NY auction on the 3rd of this month.

Ooh I knew nothing about it, please do tell, or point me to a site with relevant reading material.

[davidrj 194]

I thought you were going to talk about the rights and wrongs of the seizure and arrest at the NY auction on the 3rd of this month.

V dodgy provenance by all accounts

[Gollum 2]

I thought you were going to talk about the rights and wrongs of the seizure and arrest at the NY auction on the 3rd of this month.

V dodgy provenance by all accounts

Typical everyone knows except me, late to the party again !. Someone tell me please.

[davidrj 194]

I thought you were going to talk about the rights and wrongs of the seizure and arrest at the NY auction on the 3rd of this month.

V dodgy provenance by all accounts

Typical everyone knows except me, late to the party again !. Someone tell me please.

Thread here

[Gollum 2]

Thank you David.

Well I have an opinion, but some may not like it. If the coins had been stolen from an individual then what was done was right and they should be returned, but I disagree completely with any gov't imposing or demanding that any coin or such belongs to them de-facto, and is therefore gov't property, I personaly would not inform the gov't of the find or whereabouts of a coin farmer Giles ploughed out of his field by luck, regardless of its perceived importance to the state. I have a personal dislike of those professor types etc who sit at desks writing papers or other such stuff on the labours of other people, or who scream how metal detectorists are ripping up the land and our cultural heritage to bits merely to benefit their own careers whilst doing nothing to seek this stuff themelves. It seems to me they are more than happy to sit on their backsides and wait for it to come to them. I don't suppose many go out regularly in the cold, wind,rain or other foul weather at their own expense and actually put in the spade work as detectorists do. What gives any gov't the right to claim any coin found is theirs ( someone owned it before them! ), nothing as far as i am concerned, If the conservators or archaeologists want it so badly let them go and dig them up, otherwise it can never be seen and probably rust or rot away, no one wins then.

I spoke to someone recently who said we had the best treasure laws about, but whilst I agree in relation to other countries I don't as a whole, if I find one coin it's mine, if I find two its treausre trove, pfft, one or twenty, it's the same too me I am afraid, only the numbers change, if they want one for history and archaeology then they can buy it from me or borrow it for cataloguing, not shoving in their greedy little safes never or rarely to be shown to the public, or like so many of our "nationally declared" treasures, sold of to the highest bidder in many years to come in order to save their failing little museum. I could explain and defend my perceptions further but I don't think we have space. Simply put, if it's stolen from an individual it gets returned and the law takes it course, if it came out of the ground I say it belongs to the person who found it.

Sorry, for rant. I do have a B1 laser detector, although I got it to find the wifes ring she lost ( never did find it ), I am not a metal detectorist, although I would probably jump at the chance to be shown how to do it properly.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Gollum

[Colin G. 147]

I was also unaware of the auction story!!

Garry I am a detectorist, and would say that I think we do have some of the best treasure laws about. It can be a bit complicated, but the givernment can not seize anything you find. Even if you find a coin hoard that constitute treasure, there is only a responsibility for you to declare the find to your local finds liason officer, but at that point in time unless agreed separately between yourself and the landowner, the finder is entitled to 50% and the landowner 50%.

As part of the treasure process the items will be independently valued and if any museum etc is interested in them, they have the first opportunity to purchase them at the valuation price. If no museum is interested then they are returned to the finder, and are yours and the landowners to do with as you wish. The process can be drawn out and I have known people wait two years for the items to go through the treasure process, and the odd valuation has seemed a bit ropey to me in the past, but on the whole it is a good system.

A lot of countries demand everything is declared, even north of the border, many of which never returns. One thing this country has got right....I think

[Peckris 579]

the givernment can not seize anything you find.

I was under the distinct impression that we had a takernment, not a givernment

[Colin G. 147]

the givernment can not seize anything you find.

I was under the distinct impression that we had a takernment, not a givernment

got too excited whilst typing!!

[Gollum 2]

Snip

As part of the treasure process the items will be independently valued and if any museum etc is interested in them, they have the first opportunity to purchase them at the valuation price. If no museum is interested then they are returned to the finder, and are yours and the landowners to do with as you wish. The process can be drawn out and I have known people wait two years for the items to go through the treasure process, and the odd valuation has seemed a bit ropey to me in the past, but on the whole it is a good system.

Hi Colin, it's that bit that gets me, they grab it, and "independently" ( yeah right, of course it is )value it, and then if the museum is interested and can buy it they will. i have read so many stories about that independent valuation Colin, how the British museum will push for finds of any value to them to be declared as treasure trove at an inquest, and then have it valued within their means !. Hardly fair is it. What if you own the land and do not want to sell to any museum, are you then forced to sell it to them if they can find the money it is valued at, that is hardly fair either is it.

If you found a coin that was unique, would you expect it to be given back, I doubt it, at least that is my understanding of it all, it's a one of and they will do all they can to keep it. I don't have a problem with them "borrowing" it for research for a limited time, if they want to display it then they can make a copy for the public to ogle at. I do have a problem with them declaring such things as of national importance and then hiding it in their grubby little safe for eternity in case it gets stolen or is forgotten, so much for it's importance to the nation. I am not surprised things do not get declared to the LFO or the like on occasion. I read about the time team crew and how they treated detectorists, as if they are scum, personaly I think that mob are a joke too, but there you go, if I am to be honest, it is the reason i do not go detecting, I have the tool, but when I think about the red tape and losing my finds I just can not be bothered to go through it all, I may well be wrong Colin, I do not know maybe the reality is different to what I read or perceive it to be, you would be more able to straighten that out to me than most, I just think a man should keep the fruits of his labour and not have it taken by govt out of greed or for some museum. Don't get me wrong, If people are happy to play the game then fine, but do not expect me to tell on someone who I see hiding a find, it's none of my business however rare it is, my mouth is shut, and I apologise to anyone who dislikes that of me.

I have a big empty field next to me, I know the guy who rents it, if your ever bored I don't mind watching and supplying tea and sarnies .

[Colin G. 147]

Anyone is entitled to challenge the valuation that has to be carried out by a private company and can also obtain their own valuation as part of the process, and then the coroner will consider the case. It is just that many people do not challenege what they assume will be a fair system.

I don't think there is a perfect alternative, a lot of private collectors have deeper pockets than the museums, and some items of national importance would soon disappear into private collections overseas never to be seen again. I am a private collector and do not agree that the "normal everyday" items should be purchased and stored away by the museums, they will undoubtedly provide a better basis for study in private hands than they ever will locked away in a drawer somewhere, but the risk of a national treasure such as the Staffordshire hoard disappearing into a private collection is just more of a risk.

It is important to understand what is recordable, I have beenn detecting for about 6 years and have yet to find a single treasure item ......it is not as easy as you think. I have found hammered coins, celtic coins, roman coins, roman brooches but none of them fall into the description of treasure, but they are voluntarily recorded by me through UKDFD.

Some of my more interesting finds

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showcat.php?cat=500&page=3&ppuser=4937

I would probably not even be able to cover the cost of mine and my wifes machines if I sold all my finds from my time detecting!! But it is a hobby I find fascinating and again I have dropped on a great group of people to share it with.

"I have a big empty field next to me" get some permission and get out there, it is a great hobby and gets you out in the fresh air, gentle exercise etc. Look up FID (Federation of Independent Detectorists) or NCMD who are the hobbyist groups who represent detecting, membership also includes insurance which is required by some farmers and a majority of the rallies. Your machine is still widely used and has a great reputation.

What is classed as treasure, but this is a brief summary by me so should not be used as gospel!!

You are basically looking at gold/silver items over 300 years old, or groups of gold/silver coins over 300 years old found as a single hoard, or a larger group of base metal coins over 300 years old.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Colin G.