Paulus' XII Continued!

[Coinery 1,157]

''Right, we have a verdict. It's a copy. I have already conveyed the info to Paulus, but a general consensus of 4 people was 3 duff and 1 probably based on feel (slightly soapy), weight (4.91g), bubbles, particularly on the edge where it was probable that the sprue was removed, a few file marks on the edge etc. A fifth opinion given based on a comparison with the genuine article and about 15 or 20 other A2/1 shillings was that the C profile is wrong (too closed and with the top serif), the robe decoration is wrong, the lion is wrong and the linear circle on the reverse is too uneven, which given it is a guide is probably conclusive. However, it does ring quite well and so could possibly be a contemporary copy if it has been genuinely dug as the scrapes would suggest. ''

Something that really interests me about this coin is, if it's cast, the original 'mould' must have been made presumeably from a genuine XII, there would be little point casting a fake from a fake. So, why would the C and robes, etc, etc, not have taken this form before?

Is there any explanation for this? I'm assuming nobody would have bothered to cut their own C's?

[azda 979]

Are we getting to know where it came from. Ebay, dealer, Ebay dealer?

[Paulus 1,975]

Are we getting to know where it came from. Ebay, dealer, Ebay dealer?

An eBay seller with just 4 sales to his name, who claims to have dug it up in Lincolnshire ...

[azda 979]

Are we getting to know where it came from. Ebay, dealer, Ebay dealer?

An eBay seller with just 4 sales to his name, who claims to have dug it up in Lincolnshire ...

Hmmmmm not a good start there then, but saying that, we've seen higher FB sellers selling shite, but a mere novice is a little more iffy for me. Have you spoken him regarding the issue with the coin? I assume you've already left FB for him?

[Coinery 1,157]

Just moving something else across, I'm genuinely interested in the finer points of concluding this is a copy!

'If it's got a good ring, what is it made from apart from a nice tightly compressed bit of silver?'

[Peter 615]

Are we getting to know where it came from. Ebay, dealer, Ebay dealer?

An eBay seller with just 4 sales to his name, who claims to have dug it up in Lincolnshire ...

Hmmmmm not a good start there then, but saying that, we've seen higher FB sellers selling shite, but a mere novice is a little more iffy for me. Have you spoken him regarding the issue with the coin? I assume you've already left FB for him?

At least tell him he has been rumbled and if he persists report the con artist.

[TomGoodheart 403]

Something that really interests me about this coin is, if it's cast, the original 'mould' must have been made presumeably from a genuine XII, there would be little point casting a fake from a fake. So, why would the C and robes, etc, etc, not have taken this form before?

Is there any explanation for this? I'm assuming nobody would have bothered to cut their own C's?

Personally, I didn't see anything wrong with the Cs or the robe decoration. This coin for example, which sold through Heritage in 2008 has the Cs with a small hole in the back and top serif and the imperfectly circular inner wire lines. If that's not enough, the same characteristics are shared with Brooker's 389 and 390.

Obviously, that doesn't resolve the weight issue, but in terms of design, the coin doesn't shout 'fake' to me. Whereas the four similar coins I posted in the other thread all have a flan crack from the top of the XII to the foot of the R of CAROLVS and between the D and G. It's also possible to make out that there is a cross shaped scratch across the coin in all four examples. It's when more than one coin shares the identical quirks, in particular dints, scratches or flaws that it becomes simplest to be certain there's something dodgy going on!

As for contemporary cointerfeits, unless they are cast from a real coin and silvered then the die making was rarely very professional. This is a fairly typical example. Hopefully most people can see there's something a bit .. not quite right about it.

Edited February 12, 2012 by TomGoodheart

[TomGoodheart 403]

Transferred from the other thread ..

Interesting. On the face of it it bears some resemblance to Museum Reproductions copy. The small holes in the 'C's, the 'E' of ET .. however the obvious copy has more flan. Unfortunately I don't own a copy to compare it with and had assumed that would be more obviously white metal ..

I have to say, I wouldn't have picked it out as a copy from the photos .. as to a contemporary copy, in my experience they are cruder than that. If it's a copy, my vote is for modern.

Mind you, I've just checked my records and a coin very similar to three I'd pegged as copies (in part because of who was selling them on ebay) appeared on a reputable dealer's site back in 2009 .. looks as if they aren't so easy to spot, even in the hand. It also means that there are at least two different versions of a replica A2/1 circulating. All the original ones I had doubts aboput have a blundered/blocked B in BRI:

And finally ... I've ordered one of Museum Replicas finest offerings .. I'll see what I think of it when it arrives.

And here it is .. very clearly a copy and wouldn't fool most people. It has a slick feel, weighs over 6g, has give away splits on the edges showing it was cast. And is stamped with an R. No way it equates to Paulus' coin, nor could it be 'manipulated' to look much like a genuine shilling.

[Rob 3,152]

Just moving something else across, I'm genuinely interested in the finer points of concluding this is a copy!

'If it's got a good ring, what is it made from apart from a nice tightly compressed bit of silver?'

Copies are usually made from tin or tin alloy. It has a ring which is not out of sorts. Some casts give a dull clunk when you tap them, but others sound more realistic. Even within genuine coins you get a variation in the ring.

[Coinery 1,157]

Just moving something else across, I'm genuinely interested in the finer points of concluding this is a copy!

'If it's got a good ring, what is it made from apart from a nice tightly compressed bit of silver?'

Copies are usually made from tin or tin alloy. It has a ring which is not out of sorts. Some casts give a dull clunk when you tap them, but others sound more realistic. Even within genuine coins you get a variation in the ring.

Just out of interest, have you ever come across genuine coins that have a very flat uninspiring no-ring, for want of a better word, before? Obviously it starts other bells ringing, but I've come across some which weigh right, test positive for silver, pass every other test I can apply to rule out joined halves, casts, etc. but just sound terrible.

I guess my question is does a genuine coin always have a 'right' ring, or can one sound 'flat'?

[Coinery 1,157]

Just moving something else across, I'm genuinely interested in the finer points of concluding this is a copy!

'If it's got a good ring, what is it made from apart from a nice tightly compressed bit of silver?'

Copies are usually made from tin or tin alloy. It has a ring which is not out of sorts. Some casts give a dull clunk when you tap them, but others sound more realistic. Even within genuine coins you get a variation in the ring.

Just out of interest, have you ever come across genuine coins that have a very flat uninspiring no-ring, for want of a better word, before? Obviously it starts other bells ringing, but I've come across some which weigh right, test positive for silver, pass every other test I can apply to rule out joined halves, casts, etc. but just sound terrible.

I guess my question is does a genuine coin always have a 'right' ring, or can one sound 'flat'?

Sorry, Rob! Just to clarify...I know you've mentioned variation, but I mean 'NO ring', most definitely a flat nothing!

[Colin G. 147]

Just moving something else across, I'm genuinely interested in the finer points of concluding this is a copy!

'If it's got a good ring, what is it made from apart from a nice tightly compressed bit of silver?'

Copies are usually made from tin or tin alloy. It has a ring which is not out of sorts. Some casts give a dull clunk when you tap them, but others sound more realistic. Even within genuine coins you get a variation in the ring.

Just out of interest, have you ever come across genuine coins that have a very flat uninspiring no-ring, for want of a better word, before? Obviously it starts other bells ringing, but I've come across some which weigh right, test positive for silver, pass every other test I can apply to rule out joined halves, casts, etc. but just sound terrible.

I guess my question is does a genuine coin always have a 'right' ring, or can one sound 'flat'?

Sorry, Rob! Just to clarify...I know you've mentioned variation, but I mean 'NO ring', most definitely a flat nothing!

A flan crack can sometime cause that effect

[Peckris 579]

Just moving something else across, I'm genuinely interested in the finer points of concluding this is a copy!

'If it's got a good ring, what is it made from apart from a nice tightly compressed bit of silver?'

Copies are usually made from tin or tin alloy. It has a ring which is not out of sorts. Some casts give a dull clunk when you tap them, but others sound more realistic. Even within genuine coins you get a variation in the ring.

Just out of interest, have you ever come across genuine coins that have a very flat uninspiring no-ring, for want of a better word, before? Obviously it starts other bells ringing, but I've come across some which weigh right, test positive for silver, pass every other test I can apply to rule out joined halves, casts, etc. but just sound terrible.

I guess my question is does a genuine coin always have a 'right' ring, or can one sound 'flat'?

Sorry, Rob! Just to clarify...I know you've mentioned variation, but I mean 'NO ring', most definitely a flat nothing!

A flan crack can sometime cause that effect

I have the world's rarest coin - a 1967 penny that doesn't 'ring' Having said that, there is no evidence whatever of any cracking to the flan.

[Coinery 1,157]

Just moving something else across, I'm genuinely interested in the finer points of concluding this is a copy!

'If it's got a good ring, what is it made from apart from a nice tightly compressed bit of silver?'

Copies are usually made from tin or tin alloy. It has a ring which is not out of sorts. Some casts give a dull clunk when you tap them, but others sound more realistic. Even within genuine coins you get a variation in the ring.

Just out of interest, have you ever come across genuine coins that have a very flat uninspiring no-ring, for want of a better word, before? Obviously it starts other bells ringing, but I've come across some which weigh right, test positive for silver, pass every other test I can apply to rule out joined halves, casts, etc. but just sound terrible.

I guess my question is does a genuine coin always have a 'right' ring, or can one sound 'flat'?

Sorry, Rob! Just to clarify...I know you've mentioned variation, but I mean 'NO ring', most definitely a flat nothing!

A flan crack can sometime cause that effect

I have the world's rarest coin - a 1967 penny that doesn't 'ring' Having said that, there is no evidence whatever of any cracking to the flan.

That is actually a great comfort Monsieur le Peckris, because I have certainly had some good coins in every respect, as discussed, except they sound bloody awful!

I really am wondering how often a genuine coins goes 'thuck' when you 'drop' it onto a hard surface, instead of 'brring'.

The descriptive sounds are purely for entertainment value only, no brain cells were harmed in the creation of this post...I hope you know what I mean? :-)

[Coinery 1,157]

Just moving something else across, I'm genuinely interested in the finer points of concluding this is a copy!

'If it's got a good ring, what is it made from apart from a nice tightly compressed bit of silver?'

Copies are usually made from tin or tin alloy. It has a ring which is not out of sorts. Some casts give a dull clunk when you tap them, but others sound more realistic. Even within genuine coins you get a variation in the ring.

Just out of interest, have you ever come across genuine coins that have a very flat uninspiring no-ring, for want of a better word, before? Obviously it starts other bells ringing, but I've come across some which weigh right, test positive for silver, pass every other test I can apply to rule out joined halves, casts, etc. but just sound terrible.

I guess my question is does a genuine coin always have a 'right' ring, or can one sound 'flat'?

Sorry, Rob! Just to clarify...I know you've mentioned variation, but I mean 'NO ring', most definitely a flat nothing!

A flan crack can sometime cause that effect

Hi Colin,

But in the absence of...? Have you had, or do you have, any coins that sound like a disc of aluminium or a plastic milk bottle top (Morrison's green top), yet are made of silver, and show no other good reason for being a copy/fake/forgery, etc?

[Colin G. 147]

Silver is not really my strong point, I only have a few hammered farthings and the odd "other" so you may be better get some advice from other members. I know from past experience that even a minor hairline crack in a flan will turn it into a dull thud. The same can also be found on modern coinage where an air bubble/contaminant gets trapped in the planchet and in essence creates a void/internal flaw which will affect the tone.

[TomGoodheart 403]

I have to say, I've never (deliberately!) dropped a coin to hear it ring. (Remembers the time he dropped a coin at a dealers to much embarassment). Is it a reliable test?

I'd have thought with hammered coins, the thickness of the flan, minor cracks, whether it's ever been exposed to heat, such as in a fire and the age of the coin (as I understand the crystalline structure of silver changes gradually with time) would all effect how it 'rings'.

I just rely on weight and the appearance of the coin to guide me. Obviously a very good cast or a modern restrike in silver would likely fool me, but I'd hope 'in the hand' I'd pick out most copies. I guess without a proper test of my skills though, I could be wrong ...

[coin watch 1]

''Right, we have a verdict. It's a copy. I have already conveyed the info to Paulus, but a general consensus of 4 people was 3 duff and 1 probably based on feel (slightly soapy), weight (4.91g), bubbles, particularly on the edge where it was probable that the sprue was removed, a few file marks on the edge etc. A fifth opinion given based on a comparison with the genuine article and about 15 or 20 other A2/1 shillings was that the C profile is wrong (too closed and with the top serif), the robe decoration is wrong, the lion is wrong and the linear circle on the reverse is too uneven, which given it is a guide is probably conclusive. However, it does ring quite well and so could possibly be a contemporary copy if it has been genuinely dug as the scrapes would suggest. ''

Something that really interests me about this coin is, if it's cast, the original 'mould' must have been made presumeably from a genuine XII, there would be little point casting a fake from a fake. So, why would the C and robes, etc, etc, not have taken this form before?

Is there any explanation for this? I'm assuming nobody would have bothered to cut their own C's?

What I have started to notice over the past decade of studying the hammered series of my choice is the amount of differing dies that were used for pretty much most issue types. Apart from a few rare types where the use of maybe one die gives that coin it's 'unique' scarcity there are many differing dies for each type. Like the A2 coin in question here, there are many A2 dies that must have been used with many very small subtle differences that can be seen if you study enough coins, the robes I have found to be one of the main contributing features that can vary hugely. Not that I'm saying this coin is genuine as it looks 'unusual' in the photo but I'm just pointing out that it seems with many dies used it would be very difficult for one person to say for definate it does not exist, maybe beter to say "not one I've seen before"

A would agree with all thats been said with with regards to the differing tone on a hammered coin, with the difference in weight, size, flan-uneveness, edge splits and maybe the variant in silver content would all affect the ring tone.

[Peckris 579]

Just moving something else across, I'm genuinely interested in the finer points of concluding this is a copy!

'If it's got a good ring, what is it made from apart from a nice tightly compressed bit of silver?'

Copies are usually made from tin or tin alloy. It has a ring which is not out of sorts. Some casts give a dull clunk when you tap them, but others sound more realistic. Even within genuine coins you get a variation in the ring.

Just out of interest, have you ever come across genuine coins that have a very flat uninspiring no-ring, for want of a better word, before? Obviously it starts other bells ringing, but I've come across some which weigh right, test positive for silver, pass every other test I can apply to rule out joined halves, casts, etc. but just sound terrible.

I guess my question is does a genuine coin always have a 'right' ring, or can one sound 'flat'?

Sorry, Rob! Just to clarify...I know you've mentioned variation, but I mean 'NO ring', most definitely a flat nothing!

A flan crack can sometime cause that effect

I have the world's rarest coin - a 1967 penny that doesn't 'ring' Having said that, there is no evidence whatever of any cracking to the flan.

That is actually a great comfort Monsieur le Peckris, because I have certainly had some good coins in every respect, as discussed, except they sound bloody awful!

I really am wondering how often a genuine coins goes 'thuck' when you 'drop' it onto a hard surface, instead of 'brring'.

The descriptive sounds are purely for entertainment value only, no brain cells were harmed in the creation of this post...I hope you know what I mean? :-)

If it's an internal air bubble that might account for it I guess. But, if the air bubble is large enough to affect the 'ring', that would surely affect the weight too?

[Coinery 1,157]

Certainly an interesting little shilling! Paulus, have you any means of checking whether it's silver or not? What do you intend to do with the coin?

I'm still amazed at the level of input from the members of this forum! So much information, it's like trying to keep up with Facebook, which i tried for about 3 weeks to see what the fuss was all about, before realising how much meaningless drivel is on it! 'think I might go to bed now!' ...5 comments! 'sleep well'...'think I might too'...'lucky you, I've still got the plates to clear away'...'been a long day'...'me too!' probably 7 thumbs up as well!

[TomGoodheart 403]

Certainly an interesting little shilling! Paulus, have you any means of checking whether it's silver or not? What do you intend to do with the coin?

I'm still amazed at the level of input from the members of this forum! So much information, it's like trying to keep up with Facebook, which i tried for about 3 weeks to see what the fuss was all about, before realising how much meaningless drivel is on it! 'think I might go to bed now!' ...5 comments! 'sleep well'...'think I might too'...'lucky you, I've still got the plates to clear away'...'been a long day'...'me too!' probably 7 thumbs up as well!

*poke*

[Paulus 1,975]

Certainly an interesting little shilling! Paulus, have you any means of checking whether it's silver or not? What do you intend to do with the coin?

I'm still amazed at the level of input from the members of this forum! So much information, it's like trying to keep up with Facebook, which i tried for about 3 weeks to see what the fuss was all about, before realising how much meaningless drivel is on it! 'think I might go to bed now!' ...5 comments! 'sleep well'...'think I might too'...'lucky you, I've still got the plates to clear away'...'been a long day'...'me too!' probably 7 thumbs up as well!

I have the coin packaged up at home ready to post back to the seller (I am in Australia until next weekend), he finally told me his address yesterday and has agreed a full refund, all going through eBay Resolution Centre. He claims he has had his own experts examine it and found nothing wrong, but if true they can only have been judging from the photos.

I havent done this before and have a question - he isnt ging to refund me until he gets his coin back, what recourse do I have if he simply doesnt repay me after that, does anyone know? Does eBay step in?

Thanks for any advice!

[Peckris 579]

Certainly an interesting little shilling! Paulus, have you any means of checking whether it's silver or not? What do you intend to do with the coin?

I'm still amazed at the level of input from the members of this forum! So much information, it's like trying to keep up with Facebook, which i tried for about 3 weeks to see what the fuss was all about, before realising how much meaningless drivel is on it! 'think I might go to bed now!' ...5 comments! 'sleep well'...'think I might too'...'lucky you, I've still got the plates to clear away'...'been a long day'...'me too!' probably 7 thumbs up as well!

Totally agree! Facebook makes Twitter seem like an academics symposium by comparison.

[Nick 329]

Certainly an interesting little shilling! Paulus, have you any means of checking whether it's silver or not? What do you intend to do with the coin?

I'm still amazed at the level of input from the members of this forum! So much information, it's like trying to keep up with Facebook, which i tried for about 3 weeks to see what the fuss was all about, before realising how much meaningless drivel is on it! 'think I might go to bed now!' ...5 comments! 'sleep well'...'think I might too'...'lucky you, I've still got the plates to clear away'...'been a long day'...'me too!' probably 7 thumbs up as well!

I have the coin packaged up at home ready to post back to the seller (I am in Australia until next weekend), he finally told me his address yesterday and has agreed a full refund, all going through eBay Resolution Centre. He claims he has had his own experts examine it and found nothing wrong, but if true they can only have been judging from the photos.

I havent done this before and have a question - he isnt ging to refund me until he gets his coin back, what recourse do I have if he simply doesnt repay me after that, does anyone know? Does eBay step in?

Thanks for any advice!

Just make sure that the return item is aent via trackable postage. If he chooses not to repay and the case is decided in your favour, eBay/PayPal will intervene.

[Paulus 1,975]

Certainly an interesting little shilling! Paulus, have you any means of checking whether it's silver or not? What do you intend to do with the coin?

I'm still amazed at the level of input from the members of this forum! So much information, it's like trying to keep up with Facebook, which i tried for about 3 weeks to see what the fuss was all about, before realising how much meaningless drivel is on it! 'think I might go to bed now!' ...5 comments! 'sleep well'...'think I might too'...'lucky you, I've still got the plates to clear away'...'been a long day'...'me too!' probably 7 thumbs up as well!

I have the coin packaged up at home ready to post back to the seller (I am in Australia until next weekend), he finally told me his address yesterday and has agreed a full refund, all going through eBay Resolution Centre. He claims he has had his own experts examine it and found nothing wrong, but if true they can only have been judging from the photos.

I havent done this before and have a question - he isnt ging to refund me until he gets his coin back, what recourse do I have if he simply doesnt repay me after that, does anyone know? Does eBay step in?

Thanks for any advice!

Also, I have no idea how to check whether it's silver, does anyone know?