London Coin Auction 3rd/4th March

[Oxford_Collector 0]

I went on the Saturday, spent an interesting morning mostly attending some discussions about the CGS (Coin Grading Service), introduced by a collector, Bill Pugsley, (who I also had a very nice chat with later in the day after the auctions had finished, along with Andrew Wide of AJW coins). Was interesting to see what everyone had to say and I did end up submitting a few of my nicer coins for grading/encapsulation. I spent quite a bit of the afternoon looking at the auction lots and watching the auction proceed - was interesting for me as was the first time I think I've actually been at an auction in person! Unfortunately most of the lots I would've been interested in were being auctioned on the Sunday, which I couldn't make. There were are a number of US coins I was quite interested in, however, though the bidding for most of them started off too high for me and there was a keen US phone bidder. I did end up bidding on and winning a lustrous uncirculated 1936 Buffalo Nickel, however, a common date, but the coin really is in superb condition and I'm not disappointed with it.

Anyway, I found the whole day very educational and would certainly consider going again.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Oxford_Collector

[Gary D 76]

What did lot 2579 go for? Thanks

Sorry Rob, I didn't record that lot (was having a beer and sandwich prior to the slabbed pennies!)

Did you happen to record 1877,1900 & 2210?

Regarding the max postal bid, of course these will be pre-sorted and the auction will start at the maximum postal bid as at the start of the auction they will be winning the bids. The floor will then get the opportunity to bid up from that point until the highest postal bidders max is reached or exceeded.

[Accumulator 52]

What did lot 2579 go for? Thanks

Sorry Rob, I didn't record that lot (was having a beer and sandwich prior to the slabbed pennies!)

Did you happen to record 1877,1900 & 2210?

Regarding the max postal bid, of course these will be pre-sorted and the auction will start at the maximum postal bid as at the start of the auction they will be winning the bids. The floor will then get the opportunity to bid up from that point until the highest postal bidders max is reached or exceeded.

Hi Gary, I can certainly tell you about lot 2210 as I bought it! £150 hammer... no other bids! Sorry, can't help with the others as I only really watched the pennies.

[azda 983]

Results are up

[Colin G. 147]

What happened with Lot 1873 did it get pulled? No results?

[davidrj 194]

What happened with Lot 1873 did it get pulled? No results?

Ditto lot 2210 the 1863 open 3 in VG

notice a few gaps, so I'm assuming not sold

David

[davidrj 194]

Sorry duplicate posting

Got an error message saying I had exceeded allowed number of postings, then it adds my post twice.... odd

Edited March 5, 2012 by davidrj

[Peter 615]

Sorry duplicate posting

Got an error message saying I had exceeded allowed number of postings, then it adds my post twice.... odd

Ahhh it seems that the person with too many nice coins ommeter has cut in.You must instantly offer them FOC to other site members.

[Coinery 1,248]

A reasonable day spent at Bracknell (4 coins) but a few disappointments over grading. A couple of the 'big' coins just looked much poorer in hand than their grades/photos would suggest. I also noticed again (or so it appears) how often the top postal/email bid is used to start the bidding, so that absentee bidders tend only to win at their maximum price. These two reasons alone justify taking the time to attend.

How could you possibly know that?

I did say 'appears'. I noticed that, in most cases, when the sale of a lot was started with a postal/email bid that was then outbid in the room, there was rarely a counter bid from the initial bidder. This suggests to me that the maximum bid was used to kick-off the sale. You might interpret it otherwise?

That does sound odd, but I do know from personal experience of London Coins that I have won many absentee lots below my maximum.

Fair enough. I don't want to suggest anything other than that the process is far from transparent and that, by being in the room, I feel in control of my bidding.

In the 10 or more auctions i've recently attended, I've definitely heard 'OK, I've got £75 with me, so £80 ladies and gentleman, who'll bid me £80?'

Your top bid as an absentee has got to be the one you'd be pleased to win it at...not the 'sod it, I'll put £xxx on as my worst case scenario,' because likely as not it'll be your worst case scenario!

[Fubar 82]

Regarding the max postal bid, of course these will be pre-sorted and the auction will start at the maximum postal bid as at the start of the auction they will be winning the bids. The floor will then get the opportunity to bid up from that point until the highest postal bidders max is reached or exceeded.

Rather than the maximum postal bid it will be one increment above the second highest absentee bid at which the auctioneer has to start. If there is no bidding in the room then the item will be sold to the highest absentee bidder at that price. If there are bids in the room then the auctioneer will use the absentee bid to bid against the room until he reaches the maximum at which point the room will take over unless the maximum absentee bid is not reached.

Normal increments are £2 (2, 5, 8) up to £50, then £5 up to £100 and £10 up to £200. These vary quite a lot between auction houses and you will see some starting at £10 and going up in £10s with maybe a reduction to £5 if he/she is trying to coax more out of the room.

It sounds a bit complicated but so are the rules governing auctions.

Getting the best result for the vendor is the main aim.

It used to be that the lots were sold in guineas and the vendor was paid in pounds. The shilling difference being the auction house commission.

There are no auction houses that I know of (excluding internet based ones) that charge vendors if the item remains unsold. So all the time researching, valuing and lotting those unsold lots is not chargeable. A lotting fee is only applied to sold lots.

I've been going to auctions for 35 years (which is why my house is full of unfinished collections/junk) and I now do some part time work valuing, lotting and portering for our local one. Having got behind the scenes I am constantly amazed at the time it takes to assemble a specialist sale or even a Victorian and later household general one every two weeks. Usually around 500 lots each time.

Auctioneers themselves all have their own style and speed. Buyers are just as likely to complain about the speed of an auction (normally about 120 lots per hour) as they are about losing a bid.

A fascinating subject and, although it may seem a bit frustrating at times, the rules make them honest and there are avenues of complaint. Caveat emptor doesn't even apply any more because faulty or "not as described" items can normally be returned.

[Gary D 76]

It looks as though only about half of the English single coins sold. One or two bargains there, especially the 1934 crown. wish I'd gone now.

[argentumandcoins 70]

It looks as though only about half of the English single coins sold. One or two bargains there, especially the 1934 crown. wish I'd gone now.

You never know what the winning bidder(s) was/were willing to go to though Gary.......

[VickySilver 883]

I'm wondering if these sale results are reflecting a softening of the market in mid-level coins?

[Gary D 76]

I'm wondering if these sale results are reflecting a softening of the market in mid-level coins?

Two of my best buys have been in the March auctions. It could be that it's March that's the problem.

[Accumulator 52]

I'm wondering if these sale results are reflecting a softening of the market in mid-level coins?

Two of my best buys have been in the March auctions. It could be that it's March that's the problem.

I must admit the results were variable. Some more expensive pennies (eg. 1843 & 1856OT) didn't really make big money but, to me anyway, were poorer than the photos would suggest. On the other hand, lot 2168 (1860 Satin 1, Gouby BP1860A1 Obverse A1 with R of REG rotated) with a guide price of £700-£1,000 sold for £2,300.

[DaveG38 420]

Could also be the general economic situation. There are still plenty of wealthy people around, who look at the stock markets and have decide to go for alternative investments. One of these will be coins, and as investors, they will soon suss out that buying high value top grade is the best policy and so we see a trend towards increasing prices for top quality material. Middle grade is more the bread and butter of the 'normal' collector and for this group, many are having their pockets squeezed, leading to an easing of prices. At the bottom end, apart from bullion value increases, prices are probably moving relatively little.

Something similar happened at the end of the 1980s when Black Wednesday (or was it Friday?) smashed share investments for six. The result was a flight from shares and one of the winners from this was the classic car market, where a 1970 Aston Martin DBSV8 went from around £17k to around £80k over a couple of years. By the mid 90s, prices were back to sensible levels and stayed that way until the 2008 crash. Now the same thing is happening. An Aston at around £15k two years ago is now £30k and rising, all being driven by the economic situation. My bet is that on this occasion, coins are joining in the pool of 'safe' investments for those with money, but no particular interest in the coins themselves. Of course, on top of this ebay has widened access to material for a huge range of collectors and this too is driving prices along.

Where it will go from here, I really don't know, but my gut feeling is that when the economic situation eases, investors will largely take their profits and leave and there may be a glut of bgetter materail on the market thus depressing prices. This wll then drive down the prices of the lower grades. The trick to this is to know when to sell a collection so as to maximise profits, then buying back in again when prices have fallen, thus enhancing the collection at, hopefully no additional cost. That's the theory. The reality will no doubt be very different!

[Accumulator 52]

....The trick to this is to know when to sell a collection so as to maximise profits, then buying back in again when prices have fallen, thus enhancing the collection at, hopefully no additional cost. That's the theory. The reality will no doubt be very different!

Wow, that's a high risk strategy Dave! To sell one's collection and then expect to be able to buy it back at a cheaper price in the future. Even with the money available, it takes years to assemble a decent collection. Some coins virtually never appear in the market and to lever them out of the hands of other collectors is likely to require a significant premium.

[Nick 329]

I'm wondering if these sale results are reflecting a softening of the market in mid-level coins?

I don't think the quality was as good this time. I only had an interest in 3 lots, which is fewer than normal.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Nick

[argentumandcoins 70]

I'm wondering if these sale results are reflecting a softening of the market in mid-level coins?

Two of my best buys have been in the March auctions. It could be that it's March that's the problem.

I must admit the results were variable. Some more expensive pennies (eg. 1843 & 1856OT) didn't really make big money but, to me anyway, were poorer than the photos would suggest. On the other hand, lot 2168 (1860 Satin 1, Gouby BP1860A1 Obverse A1 with R of REG rotated) with a guide price of £700-£1,000 sold for £2,300.

Which was £200 less than the commission bid placed on it

[Accumulator 52]

I'm wondering if these sale results are reflecting a softening of the market in mid-level coins?

Two of my best buys have been in the March auctions. It could be that it's March that's the problem.

I must admit the results were variable. Some more expensive pennies (eg. 1843 & 1856OT) didn't really make big money but, to me anyway, were poorer than the photos would suggest. On the other hand, lot 2168 (1860 Satin 1, Gouby BP1860A1 Obverse A1 with R of REG rotated) with a guide price of £700-£1,000 sold for £2,300.

Which was £200 less than the commission bid placed on it

Someone was keen! Interestingly, after the auction of this item Stephen Lockett made a rare comment, that the buyer had been trying to find an example of this penny for many many years and was determined to get it!

[DaveG38 420]

....The trick to this is to know when to sell a collection so as to maximise profits, then buying back in again when prices have fallen, thus enhancing the collection at, hopefully no additional cost. That's the theory. The reality will no doubt be very different!

Wow, that's a high risk strategy Dave! To sell one's collection and then expect to be able to buy it back at a cheaper price in the future. Even with the money available, it takes years to assemble a decent collection. Some coins virtually never appear in the market and to lever them out of the hands of other collectors is likely to require a significant premium.

It isn't one I was planning to adopt myself, as I'm a collector not a gambler. However, it's what the guys in the city do all day long and I bet there are some people who are able to judge the turning point and go for the big sell. I guess if you are a collector and, as you say, you have some rarities that are almost never seen then you probably wouldn't part with these, but would let some of the more easily obtained examples go.

[Peckris 579]

....The trick to this is to know when to sell a collection so as to maximise profits, then buying back in again when prices have fallen, thus enhancing the collection at, hopefully no additional cost. That's the theory. The reality will no doubt be very different!

Wow, that's a high risk strategy Dave! To sell one's collection and then expect to be able to buy it back at a cheaper price in the future. Even with the money available, it takes years to assemble a decent collection. Some coins virtually never appear in the market and to lever them out of the hands of other collectors is likely to require a significant premium.

It isn't one I was planning to adopt myself, as I'm a collector not a gambler. However, it's what the guys in the city do all day long and I bet there are some people who are able to judge the turning point and go for the big sell. I guess if you are a collector and, as you say, you have some rarities that are almost never seen then you probably wouldn't part with these, but would let some of the more easily obtained examples go.

Maybe, but one share certificate is exactly the same as another. Your own favourite coins are unique, and once sold you are extremely unlikely to ever have the opportunity to buy them back again.