Edward penny

[Edward]

Here at last is the Edward penny I promised so long ago. Is this Edward I or Edward III? I am leaning toward Ediii. Please note the mintmark, which I believe is Cross 1 in the Spink table. I would like to have as exact an identification as possible, including class letter, if any.

I photographed the two sides in coin orientation.

Obverse:

[Edward]

Reverse:

[Sylvester]

If it's got a mintmark then it must be one of the later Edwards... i didn't think Edward's I & II had mintmarks...

[Edward]

At least some of Edward I had mintmarks, but from what I can see in Spink, they are crosses pattée, that is, the bars of the cross have curved sides rather than straight, giving each bar points on either side. In a cross pattée, however, the points of adjoining bars do not meet, at least as far as I am able to gather from the table and pictures in Spink. The adjoining parts of the mintmark of my coin do, however, meet. If this is really a "cross 1" mintmark, then it can only be Edward III according to Spink, as "cross 1" was used during the reign of Edward III only. But I am not sure that this is, in fact, a "cross 1" and look to those of us with more extensive experience (i.e., beyond one Edward penny) for help.

Another noteworthy feature of this coin is the very high double collar on the portrait. Spink does not show any Edward pennies like this.

Does anyone know of particular numbers of SCBI or BNJ with articles on Edward I-III coinages?

[Sylvester]

Well i'm currently upto my eyes in pci thread posting, but later this afternoon i'll look it up for you.

[Edward]

Thanks, Sylvester, I look forward.

[Sylvester]

I though for a minute it was S.1526 (which would have made you very happy), but yours has Roman N's...

If it's Edward III (which i have my doubts now, see below) then i think it's from the third coinage... probably S.1545 or S.1546

So the cross probably is the one you said but not very well defined, probably from a later die striking hence why it's joined up looking more like cross 1, than the patee ones you thought.

I've looked at the class 'C' coins that have the Cross 1, Closed E, wedgetail R, and Roman N's pretty much like yours but they look more like the groats than they do your penny. See... S.1584.

I do believe however that it might not be Edward III at all, it's probably class 15b or c of Edward II. Which would explain why class 15d was so close... the only difference between classes b-c and d (other than the price tag) is the N's.

See what you think.

I'm gonna have a look through Edward I later... (if in doubt say what i always say... Cl 4d)

[Sylvester]

You know i reckon it could be Edward I...

EDW R ANG DNS HYB

I think Classes 15b and c are EDWA R, not EDW R...

Hmmm (only just spotted that).

[Edward]

Sylvester, I appreciate the effort you're putting into this...

Edward III has the same obverse legend, so that hasn't helped me at all. The only really notable thing is that the obverse N's are reverse, while the reverse N's are... obverse?? what's the opposite of a reverse N?

When I first saw this I knew it wasn't the Edward IV halfgroat the seller was alleging, but thought rather this looked like a third coinage Edward III. I didn't see the similarities with Edward I until much later, as my acquaintance with this whole period is very much in its infancy. What I have come back to again and again is S.1546 or 1546A, but I have no idea really what 1546A are supposed to be like.

Yes, S.1526 would have had me jumping.

None of the Edward II that are pictured in Spink look like the portrait on my coin. Particularly, none have a collar like this one. Note that this Edward's collar goes up almost to the locks of his hair.

By the way, for completeness' sake let me add that the diameter of this coin is 19-20 mm.

Edited July 11, 2004 by Edward

[Sylvester]

Well you havethe coin in hand so you can see things i can't make out properly...

I don't have any pictures of those classes either...

Did i mention Seaby wasn't much good for hammered coinage? (Or Spinks if you prefer!) Doesn't matter they are both the same...

Opposite of a reversed n is a normal n!

[Edward]

Actually I don't think there's too much on the coin you can't see in the pics, in fact I've been looking more at the pics because they show all the details much larger than the coin itself.

Absent a catalogue with complete pictures of all the types, however, I don't see how to get much further. This portrait is much friendlier than the run-of-the-mill Edwards I see in Spink.

Do you have access to the SCBI or BNJ? Have they published articles with more pics of the Edwards than Spink provides?

And what does everybody think about the grade of this coin?

[Sylvester]

Coincraft are fantastic for Edward I and II practically every single class of penny is pictured (only about 2 or 3 subvariants that aren't), the North catalogue isn't too far behind.

Coincraft are just ahead of North because not only do they show pictures of most of them, they also show line drawings (like basic sketches) of them all too... (like you'd find in the Hawkins book).

But when it comes to Edward III, all of them revert to Spinks/Seaby style...

[Sylvester]

Erm grade... argghhh!

At a guess AF, seen quite a bit of wear, look at the lis on the crown... but still some detail visable.

Actually the crown is usually the way to figure out what class these things belong to... if all else fails look at the crown.

[Sylvester]

Is that a trifolate crown (look at the prongs on the edges of the crown), two blobs = a bifolate, three a trifolate.

Looks like it could be three but maybe that's just a bead and it's really a bifolate crown.

[Sylvester]

Well here's an S.1546

http://www.gilliscoins.com/coinage/english...pic_weh5119.htm

[Sylvester]

I think your's may well be an Edward I, and i'm sure it's a double chin you know not a collar.

Maybe double struck? I know the N's can suffer from doubling perhaps the chin can too...

[Sylvester]

The crown on yours is more like this one...

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/SE/SE1459.html

it's thinner.

[Edward]

Sylvester, have a look at S.1406, Edward I class 8b. This shows a trifoliate crown very clearly, I really think mine is bifoliate.

This also shows a double collar, not as high as the one on my coin. I really don't see it as a double chin. I'll do some right-brain looking at mine again, but right now I don't see the double chin. If that higher bit of engraving, in which the points go right up to the hair, is not a collar, it would have to be the neck, and that would seem very thick to me, particularly given the thinness of the jawline.

Thanks for the links. They are very helpful.

[Sylvester]

Yeah but you said yourself 8b shows a trifolate crown, not a bifolate... so collar or no it doesn't matter, it can't be the same... Although actually from my Coincraft it show 8b without this collar... i don't think it is a collar you know, some of the necks do go to the hair...

What's the S like?

[Sylvester]

Yes that's quite important do you have an early s or a late s?

[Edward]

I don't know how early and late S's distinguish themselves. The ones on this coin are thick in the outer, vertical curves, left upper and right lower, and thin in the transit or middle curve. Compare this to S.1379E and 1379H, which show thinness in the vertical curves and thickness in the middle curve.

What does that makes my S sound like to you?

No, I didn't think this was an 8b, I just found that as an example of a trifoliate, which this is clearly not, and a collar, which I still think this has.