Bedale Hoard Hammered Briot Shilling

[Coinery 1,153]

Can anybody help with a better reference than N2231 for this shilling? Can this be pigeon-holed a little better, I don't yet have any indepth reference books covering this.

Also, this is reportedly a coin from the 2009 Bedale Hoard, does anyone know anything about this hoard, and whether this might be a coin from that hoard.

This coin is bright (looks cleaned), but without any cleaning swirls, and also has what appears to be small traces of lustre. I can't quite put my finger on this coin's condition, any thoughts?

[azda 979]

If its been in a hoard, it would have to have been cleaned by archeologists surely?

[coin watch 1]

I know a good few of the Bedale hoard coins sold through Tennants auctions last September, I have seen a few of the better examples selling through a dealer with many others finding there way on ebay. As with most hoard coins the ones from this sale have a 'fresh' look to them but this coin does seem to be quite shiny looking suggesting it has received a fair bit of cleaning. Having said that it does have a very good clear portrait as this type is notoriously difficult to find without some sort of flatness, so I would say it's a clear VF (for it's type) The best reference to date for Charles I Tower shillings is the Michael Sharp papers, although now well over 30 years old and in desperate need of an update this work is well widely used, it can be found used in Spink too next to each Tower shilling type. This coin is a Sharp G1/2 and one of the more common types found.

[Coinery 1,153]

If its been in a hoard, it would have to have been cleaned by archeologists surely?

I really don't know, can't hoards be really well sealed in old pottery sometimes? Maybe even waxed closed, who knows? I'd be really interested however!

[Coinery 1,153]

I know a good few of the Bedale hoard coins sold through Tennants auctions last September, I have seen a few of the better examples selling through a dealer with many others finding there way on ebay. As with most hoard coins the ones from this sale have a 'fresh' look to them but this coin does seem to be quite shiny looking suggesting it has received a fair bit of cleaning. Having said that it does have a very good clear portrait as this type is notoriously difficult to find without some sort of flatness, so I would say it's a clear VF (for it's type) The best reference to date for Charles I Tower shillings is the Michael Sharp papers, although now well over 30 years old and in desperate need of an update this work is well widely used, it can be found used in Spink too next to each Tower shilling type. This coin is a Sharp G1/2 and one of the more common types found.

Thanks very much for the information. Re the 'clean,' you see this is the thing I can 't quite put my finger on! It looks new, rather than polished, the weirdest thing, I really got a sense it was straight from the mint when I saw it.

Do you know how the Bedale coins came to have a 'fresh' look? I'm thinking that if this is a Bedale coin, it will have been recently bought from auction by someone who presumeably realised that cleaning a coin is not condusive to a good investment! I'm thinking it may have come from the hoard this way, if it is indeed FROM the hoard.

Any thoughts?

[argentumandcoins 70]

The hoard was/is being disposed of over 3 sales, the final part going this week. I am a regular at Tennants but have had little to do with that lot as I mainly deal in milled. We (myself and the old man) have 4 halfcrowns from the hoard as part of our collection.

From the coins I have viewed I can say that they come in all conditions and hues, some gun-metal grey and some shite and briney.

I found a report for the portable antiquities scheme or finds liaison officer online and printed a copy for the provenance notes of ours (mine is over in Durham at the old mans house) so you could probably do the same.

Where/when did you buy it? I can dig out my old catalogues this week and see if I can pin it down to a lot for you.

[Coinery 1,153]

The hoard was/is being disposed of over 3 sales, the final part going this week. I am a regular at Tennants but have had little to do with that lot as I mainly deal in milled. We (myself and the old man) have 4 halfcrowns from the hoard as part of our collection.

From the coins I have viewed I can say that they come in all conditions and hues, some gun-metal grey and some shite and briney.

I found a report for the portable antiquities scheme or finds liaison officer online and printed a copy for the provenance notes of ours (mine is over in Durham at the old mans house) so you could probably do the same.

Where/when did you buy it? I can dig out my old catalogues this week and see if I can pin it down to a lot for you.

That would be very kind. Apparently this coin is from a 2009 auction, would that seem right to you? I'd be really interested to know whether the coin is described as 'bright' or not? Also, do you know whether the coins actually came from the hoard 'bright,' or are these just the ones that were so cruddy they were cleaned?

[Coinery 1,153]

Checking on the Portable Antiquities Scheme, it seems there were 23 Triangle Shillings in the hoard, around 6 fit the weight range, mine's 6.11g!

[argentumandcoins 70]

The hoard was/is being disposed of over 3 sales, the final part going this week. I am a regular at Tennants but have had little to do with that lot as I mainly deal in milled. We (myself and the old man) have 4 halfcrowns from the hoard as part of our collection.

From the coins I have viewed I can say that they come in all conditions and hues, some gun-metal grey and some shite and briney.

I found a report for the portable antiquities scheme or finds liaison officer online and printed a copy for the provenance notes of ours (mine is over in Durham at the old mans house) so you could probably do the same.

Where/when did you buy it? I can dig out my old catalogues this week and see if I can pin it down to a lot for you.

That would be very kind. Apparently this coin is from a 2009 auction, would that seem right to you? I'd be really interested to know whether the coin is described as 'bright' or not? Also, do you know whether the coins actually came from the hoard 'bright,' or are these just the ones that were so cruddy they were cleaned?

The date is wrong for the sale. The hoard was found in 2009, the first part was auctioned on 14/09/11, part 2 18/01/12 and the final part this Wednesday.

Lot 14 or 18 from January looks like it could be the one? Both lots mention multiples of CI shillings with mm triangle in each. "good portrait detail and most with lustre" forms part of the description. Lot 14 had 5 shillinga and 15 sixpences, hammered at £540. Lot 18 had 10 shillings and hammered at £750.

[Coinery 1,153]

The hoard was/is being disposed of over 3 sales, the final part going this week. I am a regular at Tennants but have had little to do with that lot as I mainly deal in milled. We (myself and the old man) have 4 halfcrowns from the hoard as part of our collection.

From the coins I have viewed I can say that they come in all conditions and hues, some gun-metal grey and some shite and briney.

I found a report for the portable antiquities scheme or finds liaison officer online and printed a copy for the provenance notes of ours (mine is over in Durham at the old mans house) so you could probably do the same.

Where/when did you buy it? I can dig out my old catalogues this week and see if I can pin it down to a lot for you.

That would be very kind. Apparently this coin is from a 2009 auction, would that seem right to you? I'd be really interested to know whether the coin is described as 'bright' or not? Also, do you know whether the coins actually came from the hoard 'bright,' or are these just the ones that were so cruddy they were cleaned?

The date is wrong for the sale. The hoard was found in 2009, the first part was auctioned on 14/09/11, part 2 18/01/12 and the final part this Wednesday.

Lot 14 or 18 from January looks like it could be the one? Both lots mention multiples of CI shillings with mm triangle in each. "good portrait detail and most with lustre" forms part of the description. Lot 14 had 5 shillinga and 15 sixpences, hammered at £540. Lot 18 had 10 shillings and hammered at £750.

Thanks for all the effort, I have managed to find the online photos for the lots you mentioned and, whilst the images are poor, I was able to see that mine wasn't amongst them by assessing the shapes. Hopefully something will turn up, I've sent out a couple of emails, so maybe something will come of them?

[TomGoodheart 402]

Coins do sometimes turn up in 'as struck' condition. The coin in my avatar is bright and shiny, but crisp. I presume it was 'museum cleaned' at some point (which is obviously different from being scrubbed!) But I've never seen a freshly discovered hoard so for all I know sometimes they are like that straight from the ground?

Here's another, recently from a dealer's site that's still bright, with only a hint of toning.

(If you are going 'oooh!' you might want to know the dealer was asking nearly double the price of yours .. and it sold!)

And to add to what coinwatch said, your shilling is Spink 2799 and strictly speaking would be described as having a 'Briot style bust' since Briot also issued coins from his own engraved dies and using an early machine process which are slightly different in design and appearance to yours.

Edited April 30, 2012 by TomGoodheart

[Coinery 1,153]

Coins do sometimes turn up in 'as struck' condition. The coin in my avatar is bright and shiny, but crisp. I presume it was 'museum cleaned' at some point (which is obviously different from being scrubbed!) But I've never seen a freshly discovered hoard so for all I know sometimes they are like that straight from the ground?

Here's another, recently from a dealer's site that's still bright, with only a hint of toning.

(If you are going 'oooh!' you might want to know the dealer was asking nearly double the price of yours .. and it sold!)

And to add to what coinwatch said, your shilling is Spink 2799 and strictly speaking would be described as having a 'Briot style bust' since Briot also issued coins from his own engraved dies and using an early machine process which are slightly different in design and appearance to yours.

Thanks very much for your additions. I did feel something was different about this coin in hand, it had that cleaned appearance, without looking cleaned, if you know what I mean? I was phased by the presence of lustre, not really considering this coin was possibly, as near as damn it, as-struck (it was barely in circulation before the PAS's proposed burial in the 1640's), and looking in my hand as it likely did to the Stuart that buried it along with the rest of his fortune!

I rather like it for all that!

[Coinery 1,153]

You know what, though? I love coins that have good compositional balance, I think this is one of the key aspects of hammered aesthetics ( not forgetting tonal balance, of course), I just wish there was a pinch more of the beading present at 2 O'Clock on the reverse. I'm not asking for full plump beads here, just enough of a 'raise' to pull the reverse design together a bit! Then I would really, REALLY, like it!

[TomGoodheart 402]

You know what, though? I love coins that have good compositional balance, I think this is one of the key aspects of hammered aesthetics ( not forgetting tonal balance, of course), I just wish there was a pinch more of the beading present at 2 O'Clock on the reverse. I'm not asking for full plump beads here, just enough of a 'raise' to pull the reverse design together a bit! Then I would really, REALLY, like it!

Exactly. Hammered coins are rarely precisely described by the grading, partly because unlike milled coins percentage wear and weak strike can be confused. But mainly because even if deeply and well struck, if the design is off centre, the flan small, the strike uneven or just the toning unattractive the coin can lose 'eye appeal'.

Plus there's an element of personal choice to it too. Here's my G1/2 triangle shilling. You'll note that there are areas where the flan is thinner and so the design hasn't taken so well. The die is also starting to break up showing some cracks and there are a couple of folds where the silver is bent back on itself. And finally there's some double striking where it jumped slightly between strikes! However it's (unusually) round and full with the majority of the outer edge beading there. And it has a pretty tone.

That's the thing about hammered, particularly the later, larger pieces. It's generally a compromise because every single coin is unique and in the end you have to decide what you like or can live with. As for this shilling, while it might not appeal to everyone, it's still one of my favourite coins.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Here's another from the Bedale lot for comparison. I managed to pick up this one on Wednesday

[Coinery 1,153]

You know what, though? I love coins that have good compositional balance, I think this is one of the key aspects of hammered aesthetics ( not forgetting tonal balance, of course), I just wish there was a pinch more of the beading present at 2 O'Clock on the reverse. I'm not asking for full plump beads here, just enough of a 'raise' to pull the reverse design together a bit! Then I would really, REALLY, like it!

Exactly. Hammered coins are rarely precisely described by the grading, partly because unlike milled coins percentage wear and weak strike can be confused. But mainly because even if deeply and well struck, if the design is off centre, the flan small, the strike uneven or just the toning unattractive the coin can lose 'eye appeal'.

Plus there's an element of personal choice to it too. Here's my G1/2 triangle shilling. You'll note that there are areas where the flan is thinner and so the design hasn't taken so well. The die is also starting to break up showing some cracks and there are a couple of folds where the silver is bent back on itself. And finally there's some double striking where it jumped slightly between strikes! However it's (unusually) round and full with the majority of the outer edge beading there. And it has a pretty tone.

That's the thing about hammered, particularly the later, larger pieces. It's generally a compromise because every single coin is unique and in the end you have to decide what you like or can live with. As for this shilling, while it might not appeal to everyone, it's still one of my favourite coins.

I can absolutely see why! The thing for me, as you have pointed out, is the outer beading, which runs hand in hand with my favourite aspect of your coin, the perfect central strike, which gives the coin such a pleasing balance! A very pleasing coin! :-)

[Coinery 1,153]

Here's another from the Bedale lot for comparison. I managed to pick up this one on Wednesday

Whilst my coin wasn't in any of the suggested lots (I checked through all the online triangle images from the sale, and none matched the shape of my coin), and I'm unable to follow the journey any further with the buyer, I do feel pretty confident seeing your coin, that mine is also from the Bedale Hoard. The even colour and ?lustre patches (viewing images on an iPhone) looks to be very much the same, thanks for putting it up!

Edited May 4, 2012 by Coinery

[argentumandcoins 70]

The light wasn't too good when I photographed this one. I took it from a lot of 5 as the colour most closely resembled the one you have (very bright and could almost be taken for lustre).

I struggle to understand why the seller cannot be more precise regarding the origin as the sales were only 8 months or less ago?????

[Coinery 1,153]

The light wasn't too good when I photographed this one. I took it from a lot of 5 as the colour most closely resembled the one you have (very bright and could almost be taken for lustre).

I struggle to understand why the seller cannot be more precise regarding the origin as the sales were only 8 months or less ago?????

The seller said he spent just under 5k that day, and couldn't pinpoint the lot? I had already emailed him a few times regarding it, and didn't feel I could hassle him any more!

I do feel relatively satisfied it's from the Hoard, however, I'll not be able to prove it, sadly.

[argentumandcoins 70]

The light wasn't too good when I photographed this one. I took it from a lot of 5 as the colour most closely resembled the one you have (very bright and could almost be taken for lustre).

I struggle to understand why the seller cannot be more precise regarding the origin as the sales were only 8 months or less ago?????

The seller said he spent just under 5k that day, and couldn't pinpoint the lot? I had already emailed him a few times regarding it, and didn't feel I could hassle him any more!

I do feel relatively satisfied it's from the Hoard, however, I'll not be able to prove it, sadly.

John Newman by any chance?

[Coinery 1,153]

The light wasn't too good when I photographed this one. I took it from a lot of 5 as the colour most closely resembled the one you have (very bright and could almost be taken for lustre).

I struggle to understand why the seller cannot be more precise regarding the origin as the sales were only 8 months or less ago?????

The seller said he spent just under 5k that day, and couldn't pinpoint the lot? I had already emailed him a few times regarding it, and didn't feel I could hassle him any more!

I do feel relatively satisfied it's from the Hoard, however, I'll not be able to prove it, sadly.

John Newman by any chance?

Terry, was the gentleman's name, not the Terry on here by any chance? Was it you, Terry? You can come out if you want, I'm really pleased with it! :-)

[Peter 615]

The light wasn't too good when I photographed this one. I took it from a lot of 5 as the colour most closely resembled the one you have (very bright and could almost be taken for lustre).

I struggle to understand why the seller cannot be more precise regarding the origin as the sales were only 8 months or less ago?????

The seller said he spent just under 5k that day, and couldn't pinpoint the lot? I had already emailed him a few times regarding it, and didn't feel I could hassle him any more!

I do feel relatively satisfied it's from the Hoard, however, I'll not be able to prove it, sadly.

John Newman by any chance?

Bought from him before when he had a best offer option.Grades well but too expensive nowadays.

[TomGoodheart 402]

Looking through, all the Bedale coins I have records for seem to have been quite bright and in decent condition.

My only hoard coins (to my knowledge) come from Prestbury (2005) and sadly all look as if they have been swilled around in a bucket of sand, with fine surface scratches! None had that crispness of the Bedale coins either. Shame really.