1902 Florin Good Value

[azda 979]

one of the threads that ran in the last 2 or 3 days, cant remember which. maybe worth a trawl.

I mentioned CC, that i sent a coin back to him as i did'nt agree with the grade, he freely accepted the return and got my money back as did Chris Perkins i think mentioned the same.

[Nick 329]

one of the threads that ran in the last 2 or 3 days, cant remember which. maybe worth a trawl.

I mentioned CC, that i sent a coin back to him as i did'nt agree with the grade, he freely accepted the return and got my money back as did Chris Perkins i think mentioned the same.

Personally, I expect dealers' grades to be accurate. After all, they will often have more grading experience than the majority of collectors. We are also often told that a dealer will only pay 50% of what a coin might be worth - therefore that is the dealer's profit margin. So when I see a dealer inflating the grade, I see that as an attempt to take an extra profit at the expense of the buyer.

I too have complained about CC grading, but at least they are consistent and do accept returns.

[Peckris 579]

one of the threads that ran in the last 2 or 3 days, cant remember which. maybe worth a trawl.

I mentioned CC, that i sent a coin back to him as i did'nt agree with the grade, he freely accepted the return and got my money back as did Chris Perkins i think mentioned the same.

Personally, I expect dealers' grades to be accurate. After all, they will often have more grading experience than the majority of collectors. We are also often told that a dealer will only pay 50% of what a coin might be worth - therefore that is the dealer's profit margin. So when I see a dealer inflating the grade, I see that as an attempt to take an extra profit at the expense of the buyer.

I too have complained about CC grading, but at least they are consistent and do accept returns.

I think that's the important point here. The only sufferers - as from many dealers, auctions, and eBay - will be the inexperienced who don't realise that what they bought is over-graded.

[Coinery 1,157]

one of the threads that ran in the last 2 or 3 days, cant remember which. maybe worth a trawl.

I mentioned CC, that i sent a coin back to him as i did'nt agree with the grade, he freely accepted the return and got my money back as did Chris Perkins i think mentioned the same.

Personally, I expect dealers' grades to be accurate. After all, they will often have more grading experience than the majority of collectors. We are also often told that a dealer will only pay 50% of what a coin might be worth - therefore that is the dealer's profit margin. So when I see a dealer inflating the grade, I see that as an attempt to take an extra profit at the expense of the buyer.

I too have complained about CC grading, but at least they are consistent and do accept returns.

I think that's the important point here. The only sufferers - as from many dealers, auctions, and eBay - will be the inexperienced who don't realise that what they bought is over-graded.

I think Nick's got it just right, really! If a professional dealer and auction house at the top of their game can't get it right, it's a poor show! You would expect nothing other than 100% from any other professional service! How about your surgeon or your defence lawyer 'trying it on'?

I bought around ten victorian 'uncirculated' coins from an auction house, a good one too, and probably half were better described as GEF ( my own fault, of course, but disappointing all the same)!

[TomGoodheart 403]

Since the thread is now half about grading, I shall chip in again. With hammered my personal feeling is that the market average (ie across the bulk of dealers) grading has become less demanding. The problem of course is that the definitions are quite vague. Spink's little book says for a coin to be VF "design and legends still clear but with slight evidence of wear and/or minor damage". What is 'slight' or 'minor'?

I have seem quite a few 'VF' or even 'gVF' coins over the last year or two that I would class as "showing quite a lot of wear but with design and legends distinguishable" which to my eyes makes the coin only Fine.

I don't want the thread to become about knocking individual dealers and their grading, so I'm not going to provide specific examples. But the point is that quite a few of todays dealers still belong to that generation that worked for Spink, Baldwins, DNW and the like and I do not believe that how some of them grade a coin today would be as critical of its flaws as they would have been 20 years ago.

Now I'm not claiming to be an expert at grading. In fact I don't worry about grade at all really, it's just do I like the coin, will it seem disappointing next to my other coins, or is it an improvement on my current one. I'm simply noticing that more often I look at a coin and read the grade given and think " ... er, really?"

Which I suppose is jut me knocking on again about the key things in collecting being learning about your subject, knowing your market and making your own decisions as to value for money.

Edited May 12, 2012 by TomGoodheart

[1949threepence 3,367]

If it was just ½ a grade either way, I wouldn't be too critical about grading. Grading is fairly subjective and one man's GVF, is another's NEF etc. Moreover, I have known dealers to undergrade their coins. It's not wholly a one way street.

To me it's obvious if a dealer is taking the wotsit on grading, and I don't think Neil of CC falls into that category.

Little story to tell on Neil. If you receive the booklet with new stock from CC every month, you might have noticed that the April edition carried a note bemoaning the lack of new stock, and asking customers if they had any surplus they might want to offload. As it happened, due to collection upgrading, I did. A total of 6 coins of varying grades, all bun pennies. Neil bought them from me, for £130. Yes I sustained a loss on them, but that was always going to be the case. The interesting bit though was that he used the grading for the coins supplied by me as my opinion, in the e mail I sent. The only exceptions being the 1892, which I described as EF/GEF, and he just used GEF, and the 1868, which I descibed as AVF and he described as VF. Those 2 are still for sale on his website, all the others have sold. He only wants £30 for the 1868. An absolute bargain, I think.

[azda 979]

At the end of the day, its your money and your own choice, if you like the coin then go with it, everyone here has their own opinions of grade, and if you ask 10 people about the Same coin you're going to get differences everytime.

If you like it and it has eye appeal to you then buy it.

[1949threepence 3,367]

At the end of the day, its your money and your own choice, if you like the coin then go with it, everyone here has their own opinions of grade, and if you ask 10 people about the Same coin you're going to get differences everytime.

If you like it and it has eye appeal to you then buy it.

Totally agree with the above. My sentiments exactly.

[argentumandcoins 70]

one of the threads that ran in the last 2 or 3 days, cant remember which. maybe worth a trawl.

I mentioned CC, that i sent a coin back to him as i did'nt agree with the grade, he freely accepted the return and got my money back as did Chris Perkins i think mentioned the same.

Personally, I expect dealers' grades to be accurate. After all, they will often have more grading experience than the majority of collectors. We are also often told that a dealer will only pay 50% of what a coin might be worth - therefore that is the dealer's profit margin. So when I see a dealer inflating the grade, I see that as an attempt to take an extra profit at the expense of the buyer.

I too have complained about CC grading, but at least they are consistent and do accept returns.

Nick, with all due respect, your 50% comment is way wide of the mark. I am lucky to buy from individuals at 70% of selling price and I will point out here that does not mean 30% profit for me. From that 30% I have to deduct tax, national insurance (tiny amount for self employed but still a deduction), VAT, advertising costs (presently about £110/month), stationery, electricity, phone, diesel etc etc. I don't want to fall out with you but please don't make ill informed sweeping statements about how much mark-up or profit dealers make. The truth is most of us make enough to get by and getting by means a 20% margin on your sales. I have bought from some members on here and I think you will find I have offered considerably more than 50% of either "book" or asking prices. I have also sold/given to some members on here and again I think you will find I have been more than generous.

As for grading I try to be fair to the buyer, so harsh on myself, that comes from being a collector myself. Returns; in 3 1/2 years I have had one coin back without a reason given and 2 returned because the buyer already had those dates but had not recorded them in his inventory. Any decent dealer would give full refunds or offer replacement/part exchange if the customer so required.

I am sure that the other full-time dealers on here will give similar reponses to mine in relation to the points you made.

[Debbie 58]

I think what Nick meant to say (or perhaps should’ve said) was “We are also often told that some dealers will only pay 50% of what a coin might be worth - therefore that is their profit margin.â€

As with any business there are varying degrees and levels of service. Surely most dealers rely on their reputation. I would’ve thought that those dealers who were out to “rip off†their buyers wouldn’t be in business very long.

[Coinery 1,157]

"I have also sold/given to some members on here and again I think you will find I have been more than generous".

Extremely happy!

[azda 979]

I am restating my question on the end of Paulus' 1904 Florin topic since I did not get enough replies . I am just saying that the edward vii Florin has a fantastic design on the reverse. it is really making me want one. My 2010 copy of spink is telling me I should of been able to get a 1902 example for £55 in EF or £95 in UNC back then Which is just about in my price range and the cheapest date of the series. Paulus (thanks) pointed out that the one I was looking at; Florin looks like it has been cleaned and pointed out this one. There is also This. Thoughts comments and advice please:)

Out of the 1st 2, the one Paulus pointed out to you looks to be the one thats polished/cleaned, very shiny indeed

[Peckris 579]

one of the threads that ran in the last 2 or 3 days, cant remember which. maybe worth a trawl.

I mentioned CC, that i sent a coin back to him as i did'nt agree with the grade, he freely accepted the return and got my money back as did Chris Perkins i think mentioned the same.

Personally, I expect dealers' grades to be accurate. After all, they will often have more grading experience than the majority of collectors. We are also often told that a dealer will only pay 50% of what a coin might be worth - therefore that is the dealer's profit margin. So when I see a dealer inflating the grade, I see that as an attempt to take an extra profit at the expense of the buyer.

I too have complained about CC grading, but at least they are consistent and do accept returns.

Nick, with all due respect, your 50% comment is way wide of the mark. I am lucky to buy from individuals at 70% of selling price and I will point out here that does not mean 30% profit for me. From that 30% I have to deduct tax, national insurance (tiny amount for self employed but still a deduction), VAT, advertising costs (presently about £110/month), stationery, electricity, phone, diesel etc etc. I don't want to fall out with you but please don't make ill informed sweeping statements about how much mark-up or profit dealers make. The truth is most of us make enough to get by and getting by means a 20% margin on your sales. I have bought from some members on here and I think you will find I have offered considerably more than 50% of either "book" or asking prices. I have also sold/given to some members on here and again I think you will find I have been more than generous.

As for grading I try to be fair to the buyer, so harsh on myself, that comes from being a collector myself. Returns; in 3 1/2 years I have had one coin back without a reason given and 2 returned because the buyer already had those dates but had not recorded them in his inventory. Any decent dealer would give full refunds or offer replacement/part exchange if the customer so required.

I am sure that the other full-time dealers on here will give similar reponses to mine in relation to the points you made.

I think it very much depends on the coin(s). When I was a small time dealer, much of my stock was common, low-priced stuff like post-1952 crown-sized commemoratives. I wouldn't even pay FACE for them, knowing I would be lucky to get even 50p for one, and that they would 'hang around' forever. Likewise with UNC 60s predecimal denominations - the standard offer would be two times Face, which was probably way under 50% of book price, but they are such a glut on the market and so overrated in Spink.

But for decent coins, I think you're absolutely on the button. 50% for something you can shift on to a paying customer immediately, is too little.

[ski 1]

well ive obviously rattled a few cages and that was not my intention....

the intention of my original post was to relay to the op that theres more to collecting and making purchases than just ebay and there are dealers who can provide good service without all the problems that people encounter from ebay(just read some of the threads here) its scarey.

i do believe that all the dealers ive met or dealt with are as honest as the day, also, you only have to look at the great variations on this forum when grade is requested to realise this is the most difficult part of coin collecting.

my intention was to never recommend any particular dealer. however i did look on dealers sites to see if any had stock of that particular coin.rendell happened to have some. i cannot possibly recommend him as ive never bought from him.

my remarks have clearly upset a few....on reflection, i can see that at the least they were flippant..........but were never meant to be in any way offensive.....clearly some have taken offence..........and to those i offer my sincerst apologies.

Ski

[argentumandcoins 70]

well ive obviously rattled a few cages and that was not my intention....

the intention of my original post was to relay to the op that theres more to collecting and making purchases than just ebay and there are dealers who can provide good service without all the problems that people encounter from ebay(just read some of the threads here) its scarey.

i do believe that all the dealers ive met or dealt with are as honest as the day, also, you only have to look at the great variations on this forum when grade is requested to realise this is the most difficult part of coin collecting.

my intention was to never recommend any particular dealer. however i did look on dealers sites to see if any had stock of that particular coin.rendell happened to have some. i cannot possibly recommend him as ive never bought from him.

my remarks have clearly upset a few....on reflection, i can see that at the least they were flippant..........but were never meant to be in any way offensive.....clearly some have taken offence..........and to those i offer my sincerst apologies.

Ski

No need to apologise in my opinion Ski. Thou spaketh as thou fundeth and that is all I expect from anybody in life. I came back at Nick a wee bit strong myself, but we're all big boys on here (apart from Debbie of course) and should neither take offence or harbour grudges. The beauty about coins is the fact that we can agree or disagree about them amongst ourselves but we're never short of something to discuss.

The only real answer to the grading issue is to set-up a slabbing robot that graded with 100% accuracy 100% of the time as we are humans and humans make mistakes. The difference between good and bad (people in general) is that the good ones try to make ammends.

[ski 1]

thanks John........jeeeez if we had them robots.........what would we talk about

[argentumandcoins 70]

thanks John........jeeeez if we had them robots.........what would we talk about

The plastic the slab was made out of, the colour of the info card, the font style/size/colour etc etc

[azda 979]

And those awful feckin slabs and no offence was taken here either, i was merely stating my buying experience from Ingrams. Its was like the Brits at the Eurovision Song contest, NIL POIT

My money is on the 4 Russian grannys, they'll Walk it, cos Vlad the impailer says so

[ski 1]

The plastic the slab was made out of, the colour of the info card, the font style/size/colour etc etc

azda, i sincerely hope that you and peckris both understand that my posts were meant in good faith and also meant to differentiate between the bad that occurs on ebay, those you have highlighted as shill bidders, those who clearly sell the utmost of polished crap, designed to mislead, and the genuine dealer, whom may have had a difference in grading to personal levels.

we may all disagree on grade of a particular coin at times with bona fida dealers, that happens, we have different ideas and ideals, different knowledge of a specific coin/dies....etc etc, but it sure must be difficult to be all embracing.

azda....how many times have you come on here to ask for die pairings/references for a particular penny.....loads

azda....how many times have you asked for a grading on a particular coin...................................loads

does that make you or any other here better than CC or Rendell........maybe yes, maybe no.

but yes it does make YOU and Peckris and CC and Rendell and all the others here far and away better than the those shill bidders, crap sellers on ebay...........and that was the whole point of my original post.......

im gonna leave this forum now................theres clearly no place for a prick like me here.

ski

[azda 979]

Habe you been drinking the jungle juice Ski? My previous post stated that no offence was take me old China.

Please take an asprin in the morning for your hangover and er can have a wee smile the morra about your dear John last post.

I loves ya ski xxx

Edited May 12, 2012 by azda

[Coinery 1,157]

The plastic the slab was made out of, the colour of the info card, the font style/size/colour etc etc

azda, i sincerely hope that you and peckris both understand that my posts were meant in good faith and also meant to differentiate between the bad that occurs on ebay, those you have highlighted as shill bidders, those who clearly sell the utmost of polished crap, designed to mislead, and the genuine dealer, whom may have had a difference in grading to personal levels.

we may all disagree on grade of a particular coin at times with bona fida dealers, that happens, we have different ideas and ideals, different knowledge of a specific coin/dies....etc etc, but it sure must be difficult to be all embracing.

azda....how many times have you come on here to ask for die pairings/references for a particular penny.....loads

azda....how many times have you asked for a grading on a particular coin...................................loads

does that make you or any other here better than CC or Rendell........maybe yes, maybe no.

but yes it does make YOU and Peckris and CC and Rendell and all the others here far and away better than the those shill bidders, crap sellers on ebay...........and that was the whole point of my original post.......

im gonna leave this forum now................theres clearly no place for a prick like me here.

ski

Hey Ski, hang around, you've been here a long time! This thread had a few twists and turns in it, but I certainly never spotted anyone out of order, just a good stimulating look at things.

Nobody should ever get sensitive about this kind of stuff, none of it's personal! Don't forget, sometimes you have to shake the tree to get at the fruit! I think plenty of fruit fell in this thread!

Take it easy out there!

[azda 979]

Perhaps a coconut fell on his head and he's not been at the jungle juice after all. Go to A&E and they'll give you a free asprin.

Edited May 12, 2012 by azda

[Coinery 1,157]

Habe you been drinking the jungle juice Ski? My previous post stated that no offence was take me old China.

Please take an asprin in the morning for your hangover and er can have a wee smile the morra about your dear John last post.

I loves ya ski xxx

Ahhh, ya big ole softy, Azda!

[azda 979]

Habe you been drinking the jungle juice Ski? My previous post stated that no offence was take me old China.

Please take an asprin in the morning for your hangover and er can have a wee smile the morra about your dear John last post.

I loves ya ski xxx

Ahhh, ya big ole softy, Azda!

Och i know

[Peter 615]

one of the threads that ran in the last 2 or 3 days, cant remember which. maybe worth a trawl.

I mentioned CC, that i sent a coin back to him as i did'nt agree with the grade, he freely accepted the return and got my money back as did Chris Perkins i think mentioned the same.

Personally, I expect dealers' grades to be accurate. After all, they will often have more grading experience than the majority of collectors. We are also often told that a dealer will only pay 50% of what a coin might be worth - therefore that is the dealer's profit margin. So when I see a dealer inflating the grade, I see that as an attempt to take an extra profit at the expense of the buyer.

I too have complained about CC grading, but at least they are consistent and do accept returns.

Lets be reasonable.It depends what the coin in question is worth.I buzz along (with the exception of a few) with selling coins under £100.I wouldn't be happy with 50% profit on £2 coin(£1 )But high quality expensive coins I'm sure the profit margin will drop like a stone.