Why would this Half Guinea be losing its colour?

[azda 979]

From our favourite pair of ebayers. This 1804 Half Guinea seems to be losing colour on the REV graded as AU50 , i think someone really need specs whoever graded it as that at PCGS, is this possible for gold to lose colour?

I also notice he has the same 1824 Sov listed as me also, will be interesting to see where that ends up. Same usual bidders though

http://www.ebay.co.u..._fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 1804 Half guinea

http://www.ebay.co.u..._fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 1824 Sovereign

Edited May 28, 2012 by azda

[numismatist 2]

If thats PCGS Grading Standard its a JOKE ! I would expect it be called FINE

if done by a professional to a set standard. In UK terms AU would be expected

to be almost uncirculated . Maybe the colour is caused by a poor photo but if

thats really how it looks its very strange indeed and appears to be gold plated ?

[azda 979]

If thats PCGS Grading Standard its a JOKE ! I would expect it be called FINE

if done by a professional to a set standard. In UK terms AU would be expected

to be almost uncirculated . Maybe the colour is caused by a poor photo but if

thats really how it looks its very strange indeed and appears to be gold plated ?

American AU is our EF, but no way on gods green earth is that EF.

[Rob 3,152]

If thats PCGS Grading Standard its a JOKE ! I would expect it be called FINE

if done by a professional to a set standard. In UK terms AU would be expected

to be almost uncirculated . Maybe the colour is caused by a poor photo but if

thats really how it looks its very strange indeed and appears to be gold plated ?

American AU is our EF, but no way on gods green earth is that EF.

Nonsense, of course it is. Any idiot can see it's Err Fine with the reverse probably Good Err Fine.

[azda 979]

If thats PCGS Grading Standard its a JOKE ! I would expect it be called FINE

if done by a professional to a set standard. In UK terms AU would be expected

to be almost uncirculated . Maybe the colour is caused by a poor photo but if

thats really how it looks its very strange indeed and appears to be gold plated ?

American AU is our EF, but no way on gods green earth is that EF.

Nonsense, of course it is. Any idiot can see it's Err Fine with the reverse probably Good Err Fine.

I don't understand how PCGS, even with their grading system could possibly grade this as an EF. Maybe checking the number against the population report would shed some light?

Anyone got acess to PCGS population reports?

Edited May 28, 2012 by azda

[Peter 615]

The obverse appears to be a very weak strike.

I can't believe PCGS graded this.

[azda 979]

I can't believe PCGS graded this.

Either can i, hence the reason the population report would be interesting. The REV losing its gold colour is whats baffling

[Generic Lad 25]

The certification lookup shows that there is a population of 2 in AU-50

I find this coin unusual for the same reasons that everyone else does:

It appears to be overgraded. I would say EF-45 (using the American grading) would be an alright grade (but still a bit high). There is no way this coin is borderline uncirculated. The wreath on the obverse is worn nearly flat, the buckle on the garter looks "mushy", there appears to be massive pitting on the reverse on the top part of the coat of arms. The bottom beads on the reverse look "mushy", etc. Not to mention the coin looks plated.

When it comes down to it, is it possible this is a coin in a fake slab?

[azda 979]

Coin in Fake slab is exactlywhat ithought, i also thought fake coin hence it being in said fake slab. And its certainly not Even borderline EF, OBV is more Fine, but strange that the curls behind the ear are not as worn as the rest of the coin.

[Generic Lad 25]

Coin in Fake slab is exactlywhat ithought, i also thought fake coin hence it being in said fake slab. And its certainly not Even borderline EF, OBV is more Fine, but strange that the curls behind the ear are not as worn as the rest of the coin.

Yes, I was hoping I was not the only one. The rim beads remind me too much of some counterfeit US trade dollars I've seen. And the plating seems to be coming off at a weird edge. I also find it odd that with such massive pitting on the coat of arms that PCGS didn't put environmental damage on there. It looks like someone took a leather punch to it. I'm trying to find more information on PCGS slabs to see if the type is authentic (right label and right reverse) but can't seem to find much information on the older style ones like this. I'm much more knowledgeable about NGC than PCGS but surely the information has to be someplace.

[Generic Lad 25]

Well, from what I can tell the type of the slab checks out alright, the green label of that style does correspond to the reverse used. From what I've read, the best way to compare genuine and fakes is from the font size, which of course is quite difficult because few are the same size as the eBay picture.

This entire process highlights the main problems with slabbed coins and why eBay's policy of increasingly going to slabbed coins is a bad idea.

1) With a few exceptions, you can't get photos of the coins. This coin in question has so many identifying features that had PCGS had a high resolution photo of the coins they graded that you could access by looking up the cert # this case would be solved in 5 seconds with no doubt if the coin was fake or genuine. Out of all my slabbed coins, only my (quite overpriced) double-denarius has any photos when you go to the grader's (NGC's) website.

2) It makes selling fakes easy because people's guard is let down both buyers and dealers. Unless the person in question was an expert in half-guinea die varieties, the average coin dealer would simply type in the coin's cert #, see that the cert number was the same as the type of coin and buy it. Sadly few would question if it was genuine, by relying on slabs you've taken something that is fairly hard to counterfeit, particularly if you see it in person (a coin) and made something easy to counterfeit (a slab of plastic, a hologram and a piece of paper). By the time someone notices the coin is counterfeit, it might have changed hands three or four times making the counterfeiter impossible to find. After all, legitimate coin dealers can be fooled quite easily.

3) It adds needless expense. If scammers can create fake slabs, the next step is preventing counterfeits by essentially "slabbing slabs" which is what services such as CAC does. I'm assuming this will be the next thing eBay will require, that all coins be slabbed and all slabbed coins be re-certified.

4) In the end, we are breeding collectors who cannot grade for themselves, collectors who cannot detect counterfeits themselves. Eye appeal will be destroyed in the name of "net grade" a beautifully toned Morgan dollar that NGC calls a MS-64 will be replaced with a preference for a dull grey dollar that NGC calls a MS-65.

We will soon be collectors not of coins, but of paper, plastic and stickers.

[Peckris 579]

From our favourite pair of ebayers. This 1804 Half Guinea seems to be losing colour on the REV graded as AU50 , i think someone really need specs whoever graded it as that at PCGS, is this possible for gold to lose colour?

I also notice he has the same 1824 Sov listed as me also, will be interesting to see where that ends up. Same usual bidders though

http://www.ebay.co.u..._fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 1804 Half guinea

http://www.ebay.co.u..._fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 1824 Sovereign

I think you'll find (joke grading apart) that the gold is not losing its colour. It's the effect of photo'ing through the slab, and if you look at the second pair of pictures taken from a greater distance, the gold shows its true colour.

[azda 979]

From our favourite pair of ebayers. This 1804 Half Guinea seems to be losing colour on the REV graded as AU50 , i think someone really need specs whoever graded it as that at PCGS, is this possible for gold to lose colour?

I also notice he has the same 1824 Sov listed as me also, will be interesting to see where that ends up. Same usual bidders though

http://www.ebay.co.u..._fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 1804 Half guinea

http://www.ebay.co.u..._fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 1824 Sovereign

I think you'll find (joke grading apart) that the gold is not losing its colour. It's the effect of photo'ing through the slab, and if you look at the second pair of pictures taken from a greater distance, the gold shows its true colour.

To be honest Peck, the 2nd pair of pictures, and i'm now talking about the OBV one, does'nt look as shite as it is close up, so it must be the EF stated on the coin. No seriously, i was joking there.

I don't personally believe that it's the slab, why would the REV slabbed picture show some greying around 2 parts of the coin and not the complete coin? Why would'nt the same greying or discolouring not show on the OBV if it were just the slab?

[Rob 3,152]

From our favourite pair of ebayers. This 1804 Half Guinea seems to be losing colour on the REV graded as AU50 , i think someone really need specs whoever graded it as that at PCGS, is this possible for gold to lose colour?

I also notice he has the same 1824 Sov listed as me also, will be interesting to see where that ends up. Same usual bidders though

http://www.ebay.co.u..._fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 1804 Half guinea

http://www.ebay.co.u..._fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 1824 Sovereign

I think you'll find (joke grading apart) that the gold is not losing its colour. It's the effect of photo'ing through the slab, and if you look at the second pair of pictures taken from a greater distance, the gold shows its true colour.

To be honest Peck, the 2nd pair of pictures, and i'm now talking about the OBV one, does'nt look as shite as it is close up, so it must be the EF stated on the coin. No seriously, i was joking there.

I don't personally believe that it's the slab, why would the REV slabbed picture show some greying around 2 parts of the coin and not the complete coin? Why would'nt the same greying or discolouring not show on the OBV if it were just the slab?

The greying will probably be reflection from the field, which given the obvious wear to the obverse suggests it has been cleaned in the past. If the field is concave rather than planar you can get focussing of the light at certain distances, just like a mirror. An undulating field will show the same effect in places.

Here is an example of the effect done on a scanner and a photo of the same for comparison. The reverse is prooflike in the hand but as usual for machine made coins of this era is bowed giving the focussing effect. The obverse, which is convex, doesn't show the effect as the light is dispersed. The coin in the hand has wall to wall lustre.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Rob

[azda 979]

I'd expect it on ailver, but gold? A Gold proof would be reflective, still not entirely convinced

[Rob 3,152]

I'd expect it on ailver, but gold? A Gold proof would be reflective, still not entirely convinced

I'm not saying it is a proof, rather that if the field has been polished (by hand) in the past, you will get focussed reflections off it if the optics are aligned. The metal involved wouldn't matter as long as the field was smooth to begin with. Any polishing would enhance the reflections.

[Colin G. 147]

The green labels on PCGS slabs were also some of the earliest I believe, so it may just be a case of poor early grading on British coins.

[Hussulo 6]

A couple of points.

The slab does look genuine (but hard to tell without seeeing in hand).

It is an older PCGS slab and they where much looser with grading a while ago, I believe they have tightened there grading of British coins since.

Why would this Half Guinea be losing its colour?

Again hard to tell without seeing in hand but an old trick that was often used, was to use "putty" on gold coins. I have never tired this and have only seen one puttied gold coin, a US Liberty $10 in hand and read about it during research.

I won't say what this "putty" was because I don't want to arm any unscrupulous people reading threads but basically it was a substance which was applied to the scratches on the surface of a coin, it covered over the scratches making the coin appear a lot cleaner when it was submitted for grading, thus the coin would receive a loftier grade. A puttied coin is hard to detect when it is done well and recently but slabbing companies are good at detecting it now.

Years later this "putty" losses its transparency (clearness) over time and looks a more milky colour on the surface of the coin. I believe a dip in acetone is one way of removing "putty" from a coins. Personally I make a habit of dipping all my new (unslabbed) coins in acetone and then in distilled water as acetone removes "putty" as well as other surface contamination like PVC etc. A word of warning though, acetone is harmful (possibly carcinogenic) so always use in a well ventilated area and read the warning instructions provided if using.

I can't say whether this coin has been puttied or not without seeing it in hand.

[declanwmagee 122]

Personally I make a habit of dipping all my new (unslabbed) coins in acetone and then in distilled water as acetone removes "putty" as well as other surface contamination like PVC etc. A word of warning though, acetone is harmful (possibly carcinogenic) so always use in a well ventilated area and read the warning instructions provided if using.

That's interesting, Huss. Do you do that with all metals? Would the deionised water that you get for car batteries do the job, or do you use something purer than that? Are there any coins you wouldn't do that to? How about drying?

Sorry for the cascade of questions...but I am going through my collection at the moment getting them all into selfadhesives, and a quick dip like that before they go in might be a good idea if, as I'm sure many have, they've spent some time in PVC.

[Hussulo 6]

Personally I make a habit of dipping all my new (unslabbed) coins in acetone and then in distilled water as acetone removes "putty" as well as other surface contamination like PVC etc. A word of warning though, acetone is harmful (possibly carcinogenic) so always use in a well ventilated area and read the warning instructions provided if using.

That's interesting, Huss. Do you do that with all metals? Would the deionised water that you get for car batteries do the job, or do you use something purer than that? Are there any coins you wouldn't do that to? How about drying?

Sorry for the cascade of questions...but I am going through my collection at the moment getting them all into selfadhesives, and a quick dip like that before they go in might be a good idea if, as I'm sure many have, they've spent some time in PVC.

I use it for all metals but can't vouch for it being okay with all metals. I have read somewhere that you shouldn't dip copper coins into acetone but I haven't seen any adverse effects. The only time a coin may dramatically change is if the surface has some fake toning or other substance on it, as the acetone might strip it off. Acetone shouldn't effect original toning or colour of a coin.

I use 100% pure acetone (nail varnish remover, but make sure you buy the chemical grade 100% because if you use bog standard nail varnish remover it might only be 95% acetone and have other stuff you don't want to get onto your coin).

I also use 100% distilled water. Both products can usually be found on ebay, just make sure you search for 100%.

I have a little shot glass I pour the acetone into and another glass to put the distilled water into. I use a pear of small rubber tipped tongs to hold the coin by the edges and dip it into the acetone a couple of times and then into the distilled water a couple of times. I then lay it on some soft kitchen towel or soft plain toilet paper and either let it air dry or dry it with the soft plain toilet paper VERY carefully by patting it, DON'T rub it.

Don't put coins into poly envelops or self adhesives until they are fully dry. Some collectors just dip their coins in acetone and let them air dry (acetone evaporates) but I feel this could still still leave surface contamination on the coin so I then rinse them in distilled water.

PS To all that novice collectors that are reading Never clean your coins if unsure post pictures and ask. Cleaning a coin will ruin its value. Dipping in acetone is generally accepted as it wont leave any noticeable effect (if done right). It is advisable to always use a common or cheap item to practice before using your better items.

PLEASE NOTE: To all that are reading, the above statement is what I do, and I do not offer it as any form of guidance or state that it will work well 100% or any time. Nor do I take any responsibility for damage or loss if you try and follow the above procedure. What you all do with your coins are your own responsibility. I am just offering it as entertainment purposes on a forum.

WARNING: Acetone is a harmful substance, use in a well ventilated area and and as per all harmful substances if you plan on using any, follow guidance instructions on the packaging.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Hussulo

[azda 979]

Love the Health & Safety bit at the end Huss lol

[Hussulo 6]

Love the Health & Safety bit at the end Huss lol

Well it was half in jest but we live in crazy times. As much as I like to share advice, we live in "where there's blame, there's a claim" and being a chess player I like to keep all angles covered