Help with 8over7over6 Sixpence!

[Coinery 1,153]

I've picked up a CR-2 obverse sixpence, but could do with thoughts on the reverse overdate to clarify whether it is a CR-a or CR-b reverse?

The two reverses are separated by only two kinds of overdate...a 1578/7/6 (CR-a), or 1578/7 (CR-b ), they share all the other identifiers, shield, lions, lis, leaves, etc.

If anybody knows for an image of a 1578/7/6, or where I could see/get one, then the issue can be cleared up quite simply, as there is reportedly only ONE single die for this treble combination.

My overdate is the top one, I've put a few other pictures in to assist the grey matter...it's the tiny bump over the top right-hand edge of the seven that sparked my imagination, could this be the upper-most tail of a six? I know it's easy to imagine all kinds of things with these 'marks,' but any input OR the actual image of the treble-date would be most grateful. I'm pleased with this coin and would love to put the classification of it to bed!

Edited July 1, 2012 by Coinery

[Coinery 1,153]

[TomGoodheart 402]

Quite possibly IMHO.

As you'll know, the figure 8 appears to be quite small by comparison with the 7s and I wouldn't think would extend above the top of that.

Whereas the 6 is larger and sticks out above the 7.

But I have no expertise in this area. Just my opinion based on the photos.

[Coinery 1,153]

Quite possibly IMHO.

As you'll know, the figure 8 appears to be quite small by comparison with the 7s and I wouldn't think would extend above the top of that.

Whereas the 6 is larger and sticks out above the 7.

But I have no expertise in this area. Just my opinion based on the photos.

Thanks for the comments! If you were looking for an example of a particular reverse, bearing in mind there is only the one die, where would you start? This is where I struggle with all this, not understanding due process.

Until I hit this forum I never even realised there was life outside a Spink's catalogue...10+ years of blundering around in the dark! Not that it's any lighter now, just more engaging!

It's quite crazy how it all catches hold of you, I got quite excited to see Rose 18, on your top image, right alongside my avatar and thought, WOW, it's even orientated the same way on that particular obverse!

Edited July 1, 2012 by Coinery

[TomGoodheart 402]

Dies for hammered coins were made by hand. Consequently if two reverses tally in more than a couple of points then, rather like fingerprints, they must be from the same die. Now you need to allow for striking weaknesses, gradual wear and doubling and so on. But essentially the letters will point to the same dot of the outer or inner circle, odd shaped letters will match and so on.

Find a photo of an example of a CR-2/CRa reverse and Robert is the brother of one of your parents!

And if you post it here alongside a photo of your coin then I will be happy to compare the two and give my views.

Now ... do you have a photo of a CR-2/CRa reverse?

[TomGoodheart 402]

And if you can post a photo of all of the reverse of your coin I can check searches if I get the chance ...

Edited July 1, 2012 by TomGoodheart

[Coinery 1,153]

Dies for hammered coins were made by hand. Consequently if two reverses tally in more than a couple of points then, rather like fingerprints, they must be from the same die. Now you need to allow for striking weaknesses, gradual wear and doubling and so on. But essentially the letters will point to the same dot of the outer or inner circle, odd shaped letters will match and so on.

Find a photo of an example of a CR-2/CRa reverse and Robert is the brother of one of your parents!

And if you post it here alongside a photo of your coin then I will be happy to compare the two and give my views.

Now ... do you have a photo of a CR-2/CRa reverse?

Now there's the rub, actually finding a CR-a sixpence reverse! BCW state there's just one single die known, meaning there probably aren't many surviving, legible, examples from it!

With the reverse on my coin having the Cross over Eglantine privy mark, it must be one of the two reverses mentioned (unknown varieties aside), both of which are 8 over 7's...but one.........but one also has a 6

As you say, get an example of the CR-a single-die reverse and it's child's play! Anyone?

[TomGoodheart 402]

Well, the alternative is to compare it with CR-b dies. You could start by comparing it with the 7/8 here. If it matches, you have your answer. If not .. the search goes on!

DNW sale 16 March 2011, Lot 278 (part)

[Coinery 1,153]

Well, the alternative is to compare it with CR-b dies. You could start by comparing it with the 7/8 here. If it matches, you have your answer. If not .. the search goes on!

DNW sale 16 March 2011, Lot 278 (part)

NOPE!

All looking promising! I did scan the web for the 8 over 7 and didn't find any matches! I don't suppose there would have been THAT many 8/7 dies either...any rough ideas on how many I would have to rule out?

[TomGoodheart 402]

Well, the alternative is to compare it with CR-b dies. You could start by comparing it with the 7/8 here. If it matches, you have your answer. If not .. the search goes on!

DNW sale 16 March 2011, Lot 278 (part)

NOPE!

All looking promising! I did scan the web for the 8 over 7 and didn't find any matches! I don't suppose there would have been THAT many 8/7 dies either...any rough ideas on how many I would have to rule out?

More Rob's teritory that I'm afraid. But there were two ebay listings supposedly for 1578/7/6 sixpences. Maybe email the buyers/ sellers and see if they have photos they would send you?

http://feedback.ebay.com.my/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=jerseyjohnjames&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=oldgroats&iid=-1&de=off&items=25&which=positive&interval=365

[Rob 3,152]

More Rob's teritory that I'm afraid. But there were two ebay listings supposedly for 1578/7/6 sixpences. Maybe email the buyers/ sellers and see if they have photos they would send you?

http://feedback.ebay.com.my/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=jerseyjohnjames&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=oldgroats&iid=-1&de=off&items=25&which=positive&interval=365

Not an area that I can help with I'm afraid.

[Coinery 1,153]

Well, the alternative is to compare it with CR-b dies. You could start by comparing it with the 7/8 here. If it matches, you have your answer. If not .. the search goes on!

DNW sale 16 March 2011, Lot 278 (part)

NOPE!

All looking promising! I did scan the web for the 8 over 7 and didn't find any matches! I don't suppose there would have been THAT many 8/7 dies either...any rough ideas on how many I would have to rule out?

More Rob's teritory that I'm afraid. But there were two ebay listings supposedly for 1578/7/6 sixpences. Maybe email the buyers/ sellers and see if they have photos they would send you?

http://feedback.ebay.com.my/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=jerseyjohnjames&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=oldgroats&iid=-1&de=off&items=25&which=positive&interval=365

Now that's class, Richard, thank-you, will email them tomorrow!

[Coinery 1,153]

Still nothing back from the 1578/7/6 ebay feedback links, yet, but another one ruled out at least!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Die-alter-Tudor-Elizabeth-1st-hammered-silver-sixpence-metal-detecting-detector-/271016390248?_trksid=p5197.m1992&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D14%26meid%3D692517180695700122%26pid%3D100015%26prg%3D1006%26rk%3D1%26

Something I've newly noted on my overdate coin is the double-centre in the bottom loop of the eight and speculated 6...still pointing in the right direction!

[Coinery 1,153]

I've had a couple of responses from the 1578/7/6 emails and have provided them with the link to this thread, so can I thank-you again for your help if you are following this.

Of particular use is an image (below), which I've kindly been given permission to post here. I wonder whether anyone has any thoughts? It's obviously a different die to mine, and we already know that only one single reverse die is thought to exist for this triple overdate, so I'm ever curious!

Failing anything conclusive I feel I will need to contact the authors direct, and invite them to view this thread and beg of their opinions. Rob has given me an indirect link to one of the authors, does anyone have any other suggestions about how I might track either of the three authors, Brown, Comber, Wilkinson, down? An email address would be perfect!

[HistoricCoinage 146]

Let's bump this thread.

One for you here, Stuart.

[Coinery 1,153]

Thanks for the alert, Clive, but this appears to be a straight 1578 according to BCW!

I can't really tell from the image, but all the 1578 overdates should have the overmark too (Cross over Eglantine), which it doesn't look to have. Also, the lions and leaves on this reverse are from 1578+ punches, and the lions (67) especially, are only known on straight '78's (the 1578 overdates all sharing lions 62, which this coin definitely doesn't have).

Sadly, I believe this is reverse CR-d3 myself!

[HistoricCoinage 146]

Thanks for the alert, Clive, but this appears to be a straight 1578 according to BCW!

I can't really tell from the image, but all the 1578 overdates should have the overmark too (Cross over Eglantine), which it doesn't look to have. Also, the lions and leaves on this reverse are from 1578+ punches, and the lions (67) especially, are only known on straight '78's (the 1578 overdates all sharing lions 62, which this coin definitely doesn't have).

Sadly, I believe this is reverse CR-d3 myself!

There are so many non-overdates being sold as overdates! Almost makes it look rarer to get a standard 77 or 78.

[Coinery 1,153]

Thanks for the alert, Clive, but this appears to be a straight 1578 according to BCW!

I can't really tell from the image, but all the 1578 overdates should have the overmark too (Cross over Eglantine), which it doesn't look to have. Also, the lions and leaves on this reverse are from 1578+ punches, and the lions (67) especially, are only known on straight '78's (the 1578 overdates all sharing lions 62, which this coin definitely doesn't have).

Sadly, I believe this is reverse CR-d3 myself!

There are so many non-overdates being sold as overdates! Almost makes it look rarer to get a standard 77 or 78.

I think you're right!

[Coinery 1,153]

Was just taking a look at groundy's other offerings and saw this 111172797832

It IS a known variety (maybe not in Spink's I grant you) but, more importantly, he's got so carried away with the rare UNlisted spiel, that he's forgotten to mention it's a LIS shilling, which could quite possibly be on a few 'saved searches'!

[Rob 3,152]

Sixpences are the best denomination for misprunts.I had a LEIZABETH last year.

[Coinery 1,153]

Sixpences are the best denomination for misprunts.I had a LEIZABETH last year.

Now THAT's a proper unrecorded variety!

[Rob 3,152]

Was just taking a look at groundy's other offerings and saw this 111172797832

It IS a known variety (maybe not in Spink's I grant you) but, more importantly, he's got so carried away with the rare UNlisted spiel, that he's forgotten to mention it's a LIS shilling, which could quite possibly be on a few 'saved searches'!

You get quite a few lis shillings cropping up on ebay. 8 or 9 years I picked up a 1B wireline which was essentially unworn though did have a crease from the spade - £130 on a midweek lunchtime was a no brainer.

[Rob 3,152]

Sixpences are the best denomination for misprunts.I had a LEIZABETH last year.

Now THAT's a proper unrecorded variety!

It went to a guy in our club who collects only Elizabeth 1st. As his conventional wants list is the size of a postage stamp, he appreciates the oddball things,

[Coinery 1,153]

Was just taking a look at groundy's other offerings and saw this 111172797832

It IS a known variety (maybe not in Spink's I grant you) but, more importantly, he's got so carried away with the rare UNlisted spiel, that he's forgotten to mention it's a LIS shilling, which could quite possibly be on a few 'saved searches'!

You get quite a few lis shillings cropping up on ebay. 8 or 9 years I picked up a 1B wireline which was essentially unworn though did have a crease from the spade - £130 on a midweek lunchtime was a no brainer.

Absolutely, you don't see those on the bay too often! In fact, I haven't seen one yet...top spot! I'm guessing he didn't list it as such?

[Coinery 1,153]

Sixpences are the best denomination for misprunts.I had a LEIZABETH last year.

Now THAT's a proper unrecorded variety!

It went to a guy in our club who collects only Elizabeth 1st. As his conventional wants list is the size of a postage stamp, he appreciates the oddball things,

Lucky chap...one for Chris Comber, that one!