1863 shilling on eBay?

[mtwc 0]

1863 shilling on eBay

Is it me or does the '3' not quite sit with the other numbers on this one?

I'm not really an expert on this, but the tone seems different and it almost looks like a different font.

[Coinery 1,148]

I've not actually checked out the correct punches for the 3, but looking at the tone of the coin and the areas surrounding the 3, I have to say it doesn't ring any alarm bells for me! But that's just me, of course!

Edited July 2, 2012 by Coinery

[Rob 3,152]

1863 shilling on eBay

Is it me or does the '3' not quite sit with the other numbers on this one?

I'm not really an expert on this, but the tone seems different and it almost looks like a different font.

No reason to believe it isn't real. The date could have reinforced on the die at some point which would give the same effect.

It's pretty dire and difficult to imagine too many people wanting it, despite the rarity of the date. Having said that, it's eBay, so anything could happen.

[Peckris 579]

1863 shilling on eBay

Is it me or does the '3' not quite sit with the other numbers on this one?

I'm not really an expert on this, but the tone seems different and it almost looks like a different font.

Wear patterns are often surprising. Look at the device between the ribbon and SHILLING - one side of it is worn right away. I think it's probably ok.

[Peter 615]

1863 shilling on eBay

Is it me or does the '3' not quite sit with the other numbers on this one?

I'm not really an expert on this, but the tone seems different and it almost looks like a different font.

Wear patterns are often surprising. Look at the device between the ribbon and SHILLING - one side of it is worn right away. I think it's probably ok.

Honestly would you want it?

Maybe I have seen the light on crap coins.

[Peter 615]

1863 shilling on eBay

Is it me or does the '3' not quite sit with the other numbers on this one?

I'm not really an expert on this, but the tone seems different and it almost looks like a different font.

Wear patterns are often surprising. Look at the device between the ribbon and SHILLING - one side of it is worn right away. I think it's probably ok.

Honestly would you want it?

Maybe I have seen the light on crap coins.

I am sitting here eating lobster and supping up some fine wines (10 am start tomorrow)

[Peter 615]

1863 shilling on eBay

Is it me or does the '3' not quite sit with the other numbers on this one?

I'm not really an expert on this, but the tone seems different and it almost looks like a different font.

Wear patterns are often surprising. Look at the device between the ribbon and SHILLING - one side of it is worn right away. I think it's probably ok.

Honestly would you want it?

Maybe I have seen the light on crap coins.

I am sitting here eating lobster and supping up some fine wines (10 am start tomorrow)

Mrs Peter has just advised I have to be up early for the school run and there is no more wine left.(just a couple of crates of French larger).

Good night

[Peckris 579]

1863 shilling on eBay

Is it me or does the '3' not quite sit with the other numbers on this one?

I'm not really an expert on this, but the tone seems different and it almost looks like a different font.

Wear patterns are often surprising. Look at the device between the ribbon and SHILLING - one side of it is worn right away. I think it's probably ok.

Honestly would you want it?

Maybe I have seen the light on crap coins.

I am sitting here eating lobster and supping up some fine wines (10 am start tomorrow)

Mrs Peter has just advised I have to be up early for the school run and there is no more wine left.(just a couple of crates of French larger).

Good night

You REALLY wouldn't want to see the image this conjures up in my head

[Peter 615]

1863 shilling on eBay

Is it me or does the '3' not quite sit with the other numbers on this one?

I'm not really an expert on this, but the tone seems different and it almost looks like a different font.

Wear patterns are often surprising. Look at the device between the ribbon and SHILLING - one side of it is worn right away. I think it's probably ok.

Honestly would you want it?

Maybe I have seen the light on crap coins.

I am sitting here eating lobster and supping up some fine wines (10 am start tomorrow)

Mrs Peter has just advised I have to be up early for the school run and there is no more wine left.(just a couple of crates of French larger).

Good night

You REALLY wouldn't want to see the image this conjures up in my head

I meant lager....and I was up and out bright eyed and bushy tailed....well sort of.

[Rob 3,152]

This finished at around the £250 mark!

[pies 33]

This finished at around the £250 mark!

Using spink and my dubious grading the absolute max for that is £80

[VickySilver 830]

Yikes, what would an Unc. specimen go for these days???

[Rob 3,152]

Yikes, what would an Unc. specimen go for these days???

Probably £251. We are talking ebay here.

[DaveG38 405]

This finished at around the £250 mark!

Using spink and my dubious grading the absolute max for that is £80

Technically, you are probably about right. However, with ebay and rarer dates, a different dynamic takes over. 20-30 years ago, if you were a shilling collector and wanted to obtain a 1863 example to fill that toothy gap in your collection, you had to either go round (figuratively) all the dealers or obtain all their lists and hope that you could find one. And when you did, you got in quick before another collector did, maybe one whose post arrived ten minutes after yours did. And if the 1863 shilling happened to be in a pot of old coins in Uncle Fred's sideboard well you had no chance. In other words, there wasn't very much direct and open competition between collectors and many coins weren't easily put on the market. Also, of course, dealers tended to price coins based on experience, but also on Seaby (now Spink) and so prices were not likely to rocket away into the stratosphere, even for rarer dates.

Fast forward to the present, and all you have to do is put '1863 shilling' into the ebay search facility, save it as a search and sit back and wait. Once you see one, then everyone and his wife who wants one can bid for it, and since there are literally millions of potential viewers of the auction, unsurprisingly they push up the price. That's the power of both the internet and particularly ebay. Not only that but everyone who's got the contents of Uncle Fred's sideboard can also put them on ebay, so suddenly previously unaccessible coins are appearing. This makes for more coins, but also widens the appeal for collectors, again meaning that they've got a greater chance of picking up that elusive coin.

For me though the key thing is the advertising of the availability of a key date coin to a huge audience. Of course, there's always the 'must have it, when will I see another one' factor, which no doubt drives buyers to dig deeper into their pockets, particularly if they've been waiting years for one, even in a low grade.

[Peckris 579]

Technically, you are probably about right. However, with ebay and rarer dates, a different dynamic takes over. 20-30 years ago, if you were a shilling collector and wanted to obtain a 1863 example to fill that toothy gap in your collection, you had to either go round (figuratively) all the dealers or obtain all their lists and hope that you could find one. And when you did, you got in quick before another collector did, maybe one whose post arrived ten minutes after yours did. And if the 1863 shilling happened to be in a pot of old coins in Uncle Fred's sideboard well you had no chance. In other words, there wasn't very much direct and open competition between collectors and many coins weren't easily put on the market. Also, of course, dealers tended to price coins based on experience, but also on Seaby (now Spink) and so prices were not likely to rocket away into the stratosphere, even for rarer dates.

Fast forward to the present, and all you have to do is put '1863 shilling' into the ebay search facility, save it as a search and sit back and wait. Once you see one, then everyone and his wife who wants one can bid for it, and since there are literally millions of potential viewers of the auction, unsurprisingly they push up the price. That's the power of both the internet and particularly ebay. Not only that but everyone who's got the contents of Uncle Fred's sideboard can also put them on ebay, so suddenly previously unaccessible coins are appearing. This makes for more coins, but also widens the appeal for collectors, again meaning that they've got a greater chance of picking up that elusive coin.

For me though the key thing is the advertising of the availability of a key date coin to a huge audience. Of course, there's always the 'must have it, when will I see another one' factor, which no doubt drives buyers to dig deeper into their pockets, particularly if they've been waiting years for one, even in a low grade.

That's also the vicious circle engendered by eBay - collectors get used to the artificially inflated prices and become conditioned to pay them. The problem with that is, they then have to SELL on eBay to recoup their outlay. If they tried to sell to a dealer or at a provincial auction, they would experience a massive reality check. eBay has become its own little universe with its own rules and its own values. Yet outside the secluded world of hobbyist collectors, those rules simply don't apply; you can pick up ordinary goods at (generally) their genuine real world market value, or even well below. The same applies to common or low value coins of course. Yet high grade rarities don't necessarily obey those rules either - eBay wouldn't necessarily be the best place to sell an UNC 1905 halfcrown, as if it was in the catalogue of one of the better known auction houses, it would attract bids possibly as high - or higher - than on eBay.

Having said all that, I think you're probably spot on when it comes to lower grade rarities.

[DaveG38 405]

Technically, you are probably about right. However, with ebay and rarer dates, a different dynamic takes over. 20-30 years ago, if you were a shilling collector and wanted to obtain a 1863 example to fill that toothy gap in your collection, you had to either go round (figuratively) all the dealers or obtain all their lists and hope that you could find one. And when you did, you got in quick before another collector did, maybe one whose post arrived ten minutes after yours did. And if the 1863 shilling happened to be in a pot of old coins in Uncle Fred's sideboard well you had no chance. In other words, there wasn't very much direct and open competition between collectors and many coins weren't easily put on the market. Also, of course, dealers tended to price coins based on experience, but also on Seaby (now Spink) and so prices were not likely to rocket away into the stratosphere, even for rarer dates.

Fast forward to the present, and all you have to do is put '1863 shilling' into the ebay search facility, save it as a search and sit back and wait. Once you see one, then everyone and his wife who wants one can bid for it, and since there are literally millions of potential viewers of the auction, unsurprisingly they push up the price. That's the power of both the internet and particularly ebay. Not only that but everyone who's got the contents of Uncle Fred's sideboard can also put them on ebay, so suddenly previously unaccessible coins are appearing. This makes for more coins, but also widens the appeal for collectors, again meaning that they've got a greater chance of picking up that elusive coin.

For me though the key thing is the advertising of the availability of a key date coin to a huge audience. Of course, there's always the 'must have it, when will I see another one' factor, which no doubt drives buyers to dig deeper into their pockets, particularly if they've been waiting years for one, even in a low grade.

That's also the vicious circle engendered by eBay - collectors get used to the artificially inflated prices and become conditioned to pay them. The problem with that is, they then have to SELL on eBay to recoup their outlay. If they tried to sell to a dealer or at a provincial auction, they would experience a massive reality check. eBay has become its own little universe with its own rules and its own values. Yet outside the secluded world of hobbyist collectors, those rules simply don't apply; you can pick up ordinary goods at (generally) their genuine real world market value, or even well below. The same applies to common or low value coins of course. Yet high grade rarities don't necessarily obey those rules either - eBay wouldn't necessarily be the best place to sell an UNC 1905 halfcrown, as if it was in the catalogue of one of the better known auction houses, it would attract bids possibly as high - or higher - than on eBay.

Having said all that, I think you're probably spot on when it comes to lower grade rarities.

I entirely agree about the self-reinforcement by ebay, but since it is here to stay, I guess when people come to sell they'll do so on there themselves, in which case they may not lose too much, and might even make a bit more. The problem still is that the 'ordinary' dealers don't carry stocks of the rarities that many collectors want and so in order to get an example people will compete to fill that gap. I did so for an 1854 sixpence, the first and only one I've seen (until Azda came up with one a while ago). Had I not bought it, I'm sure I would still have the gap because I doubt that many dealers would carry examples for very long if at all.

Having said this, I also agree with you that ebay would not be the best place for expensive or higher grade raraities. I can't imagine anyone putting a genuine 1933 penny on there! Ditto your UNC 1905 half crown. In fact I am sometimes surprised at the high value coins that do make it onto ebay, although they are usually BIN coins at somewhat inflated prices.

[VickySilver 830]

Rob, do sell me an 1863 (how about an over 1 overdate) for L251 please!

Seriously I suspect 1k might secure it, or it might not...

[Red Riley 2]

I see what you mean but I haven't got access to another 1863 shilling with which to compare it, so really can't comment. What I would say though is that I personally don't think the coin is that ugly, it's got wear yes, but nothing untoward like edge knocks, scratches or unsightly toning. Coins are made to be used and that's what this one is, I would rather have a coin like that than a gap in the collection. Whether I would pay £250 for it is another matter...

[Rob 3,152]

Rob, do sell me an 1863 (how about an over 1 overdate) for L251 please!

Seriously I suspect 1k might secure it, or it might not...

Probably about right.

[1949threepence 3,367]

Technically, you are probably about right. However, with ebay and rarer dates, a different dynamic takes over. 20-30 years ago, if you were a shilling collector and wanted to obtain a 1863 example to fill that toothy gap in your collection, you had to either go round (figuratively) all the dealers or obtain all their lists and hope that you could find one. And when you did, you got in quick before another collector did, maybe one whose post arrived ten minutes after yours did. And if the 1863 shilling happened to be in a pot of old coins in Uncle Fred's sideboard well you had no chance. In other words, there wasn't very much direct and open competition between collectors and many coins weren't easily put on the market. Also, of course, dealers tended to price coins based on experience, but also on Seaby (now Spink) and so prices were not likely to rocket away into the stratosphere, even for rarer dates.

Fast forward to the present, and all you have to do is put '1863 shilling' into the ebay search facility, save it as a search and sit back and wait. Once you see one, then everyone and his wife who wants one can bid for it, and since there are literally millions of potential viewers of the auction, unsurprisingly they push up the price. That's the power of both the internet and particularly ebay. Not only that but everyone who's got the contents of Uncle Fred's sideboard can also put them on ebay, so suddenly previously unaccessible coins are appearing. This makes for more coins, but also widens the appeal for collectors, again meaning that they've got a greater chance of picking up that elusive coin.

For me though the key thing is the advertising of the availability of a key date coin to a huge audience. Of course, there's always the 'must have it, when will I see another one' factor, which no doubt drives buyers to dig deeper into their pockets, particularly if they've been waiting years for one, even in a low grade.

That's also the vicious circle engendered by eBay - collectors get used to the artificially inflated prices and become conditioned to pay them. The problem with that is, they then have to SELL on eBay to recoup their outlay. If they tried to sell to a dealer or at a provincial auction, they would experience a massive reality check. eBay has become its own little universe with its own rules and its own values. Yet outside the secluded world of hobbyist collectors, those rules simply don't apply; you can pick up ordinary goods at (generally) their genuine real world market value, or even well below. The same applies to common or low value coins of course. Yet high grade rarities don't necessarily obey those rules either - eBay wouldn't necessarily be the best place to sell an UNC 1905 halfcrown, as if it was in the catalogue of one of the better known auction houses, it would attract bids possibly as high - or higher - than on eBay.

Having said all that, I think you're probably spot on when it comes to lower grade rarities.

There's something about the e bay:private dealer:auction house 3 way equation that I've begun to notice more and more, and it's wholly related to the price and quality angle. On e bay, uncirculated items with a book value of say £100, will often go for slightly more. Might well be a bit more than you would actually from a private dealer. However, there is a major crossover point in the price/quality dynamic, and I'm not entirely sure where it falls, moneywise. Certainly not an exact science, but the higher quality items will tend to go for a lot, lot less in an e bay auction, than they would from a dealer and certainly less than they would attract at, say, a London coins auction. I've noticed this time and time again.

For example, I bought a near uncirculated 1868 penny last year, for £650 from a dealer. I then saw a similar 1868 penny, possibly slightly better, go at auction on e bay for just £285. At London coins, it might easily have gone for more than £650.

Colin Cooke currently has a GEF non lustred plain 4 1864 penny on offer for £1200. I got an EF example on e bay for just £99. They've also got a fantastic near UNC with lustre 1865/3 for £1250. I guarantee that it wouldn't get anywhere near that on e bay, but might easily exceed it at a private auction.

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this trend, but it has become very obvious to me over the last 2 to 3 years. Forgive me talking in buns by the way. It's my recent experience and current field of expertise.

[Debbie 58]

Perhaps the auction house prices are never realised because the only buyers that are prepared to spend three figures plus on the bay are mostly dealers and therefore want to make a decent profit when they sell on?

[Rob 3,152]

Perhaps the auction house prices are never realised because the only buyers that are prepared to spend three figures plus on the bay are mostly dealers and therefore want to make a decent profit when they sell on?

With the exception of the idiots who list 1967 pennies or similar items at £1000 starting price on eBay, the more expensive items on ebay will often be known to dealers and collectors alike as an individual piece with some sort of provenance and hence an indicated value. It doesn't matter whether the sale was last week, last year or last century as long as you have a reference point relative to its peers. If you know the coin from seeing it in hand, so much the better. Anyone can spend as much as they like on ebay, including individual collectors if they are prepared to put their money where their collective mouths are. It isn't rocket science, just information gained from doing the spadework. If books or catalogues were bought or otherwise accumulated by individuals who then did the same research, they might like to spend a bit more too. As Peter keeps saying, know your subject.

[1949threepence 3,367]

Perhaps the auction house prices are never realised because the only buyers that are prepared to spend three figures plus on the bay are mostly dealers and therefore want to make a decent profit when they sell on?

With the exception of the idiots who list 1967 pennies or similar items at £1000 starting price on eBay, the more expensive items on ebay will often be known to dealers and collectors alike as an individual piece with some sort of provenance and hence an indicated value. It doesn't matter whether the sale was last week, last year or last century as long as you have a reference point relative to its peers. If you know the coin from seeing it in hand, so much the better. Anyone can spend as much as they like on ebay, including individual collectors if they are prepared to put their money where their collective mouths are. It isn't rocket science, just information gained from doing the spadework. If books or catalogues were bought or otherwise accumulated by individuals who then did the same research, they might like to spend a bit more too. As Peter keeps saying, know your subject.

I presume that is deliberate ironic exaggeration on your part ? Probably not though......

[Red Riley 2]

There's something about the e bay:private dealer:auction house 3 way equation that I've begun to notice more and more, and it's wholly related to the price and quality angle. On e bay, uncirculated items with a book value of say £100, will often go for slightly more. Might well be a bit more than you would actually from a private dealer. However, there is a major crossover point in the price/quality dynamic, and I'm not entirely sure where it falls, moneywise. Certainly not an exact science, but the higher quality items will tend to go for a lot, lot less in an e bay auction, than they would from a dealer and certainly less than they would attract at, say, a London coins auction. I've noticed this time and time again.

For example, I bought a near uncirculated 1868 penny last year, for £650 from a dealer. I then saw a similar 1868 penny, possibly slightly better, go at auction on e bay for just £285. At London coins, it might easily have gone for more than £650.

Colin Cooke currently has a GEF non lustred plain 4 1864 penny on offer for £1200. I got an EF example on e bay for just £99. They've also got a fantastic near UNC with lustre 1865/3 for £1250. I guarantee that it wouldn't get anywhere near that on e bay, but might easily exceed it at a private auction.

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this trend, but it has become very obvious to me over the last 2 to 3 years. Forgive me talking in buns by the way. It's my recent experience and current field of expertise.

Having attended a number of auctions recently, it is my contention that e-bay is actually the cheapest place to buy coins at present, and you are right as a seller there is no way I would sell anything of any quality in a one week auction format. Even so I think the 1868 penny at £285 (as opposed to £1k in the latest Spinks) would seem to represent an exceptional bargain. How much longer there will be such rich pickings on there, I don't know but over the last few years I have noticed a drift away from auction format to BINs for even moderate quality lots which, if it continues means that e-bay bargains will be a thing of the past. E-bay may have kick-started the upward drift in prices, but it has really only been a catalyst and the market is now sailing full steam ahead irrespective of what goes on in online auctions.

Notwithstanding any of the above, there are still regular sellers on e-bay who always seem to get high prices for their auction lots and that obviously makes me doubt that their auctions are fully above-board.

Much of the stuff on e-bay, you wouldn't see in a traditional auctioneers catalogue except in the bulk lots section but perhaps this is the future as far as coins on e-bay are concerned when sellers of quality lots realise that they will get better prices elsewhere. There also must come a time when more buyers realise that many of the more successful vendors 'sell dirty'.

But I wish I'd seen that 1868 penny...

[1949threepence 3,367]

There's something about the e bay:private dealer:auction house 3 way equation that I've begun to notice more and more, and it's wholly related to the price and quality angle. On e bay, uncirculated items with a book value of say £100, will often go for slightly more. Might well be a bit more than you would actually from a private dealer. However, there is a major crossover point in the price/quality dynamic, and I'm not entirely sure where it falls, moneywise. Certainly not an exact science, but the higher quality items will tend to go for a lot, lot less in an e bay auction, than they would from a dealer and certainly less than they would attract at, say, a London coins auction. I've noticed this time and time again.

For example, I bought a near uncirculated 1868 penny last year, for £650 from a dealer. I then saw a similar 1868 penny, possibly slightly better, go at auction on e bay for just £285. At London coins, it might easily have gone for more than £650.

Colin Cooke currently has a GEF non lustred plain 4 1864 penny on offer for £1200. I got an EF example on e bay for just £99. They've also got a fantastic near UNC with lustre 1865/3 for £1250. I guarantee that it wouldn't get anywhere near that on e bay, but might easily exceed it at a private auction.

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this trend, but it has become very obvious to me over the last 2 to 3 years. Forgive me talking in buns by the way. It's my recent experience and current field of expertise.

Having attended a number of auctions recently, it is my contention that e-bay is actually the cheapest place to buy coins at present, and you are right as a seller there is no way I would sell anything of any quality in a one week auction format. Even so I think the 1868 penny at £285 (as opposed to £1k in the latest Spinks) would seem to represent an exceptional bargain. How much longer there will be such rich pickings on there, I don't know but over the last few years I have noticed a drift away from auction format to BINs for even moderate quality lots which, if it continues means that e-bay bargains will be a thing of the past. E-bay may have kick-started the upward drift in prices, but it has really only been a catalyst and the market is now sailing full steam ahead irrespective of what goes on in online auctions.

Notwithstanding any of the above, there are still regular sellers on e-bay who always seem to get high prices for their auction lots and that obviously makes me doubt that their auctions are fully above-board.

Much of the stuff on e-bay, you wouldn't see in a traditional auctioneers catalogue except in the bulk lots section but perhaps this is the future as far as coins on e-bay are concerned when sellers of quality lots realise that they will get better prices elsewhere. There also must come a time when more buyers realise that many of the more successful vendors 'sell dirty'.

But I wish I'd seen that 1868 penny...

You've got to trawl through pages of dross to find and earmark the decent stuff. I think you're probably right about e bay and rich pickings, though. Whilst the casino mentality will continue, the bargains are beginning to dry up in what is a hot market.

As for those 1868 pennies...... well I'm still very pleased with the one I've got.........

Edited July 14, 2012 by 1949threepence