Charles I Shillings

[TomGoodheart 403]

I think you all have made some long and interesting points, and I thank you very much for all your time spent. I take every point onboard and confess that I am very quickly infected by the depth it's possible to go to with any type of coin, I do so hope to have the time and resources to one day grab a numismatic dark alley by the horns and shed some light on it! It's got me all o itchin' like a flea-ridden badger!

No problem! As I say, it'd be very uninteresting if we all were after the same things and interested in the same aspects. And while I don't think I'd want to embark on such a project, I'm more than willing to contribute or share what I can.

Oops. That makes it sound like I'm just plain lazy!

[coin watch 1]

There are so many Charles Tower shilling dies evident that a complete or even near so study would be impossible the conclude, but for me this is where the interest holds. It is true some type dies where made up in sections which can be seen when comparing coins of the same portrait type, this being (I find) most evident in the likes of the 'common' E2 bust make-up, these subtle differences are also seen in most of the portraits while also in the meantime coins of the following class: C1,C3,F4 for example so far are (from what I have seen) having been struck from one die for each type which only adds to its considered rarity. But interestingly there are also one or two coins which are considered rare but have a number of differing dies, for example the Sharp F7 with the triangle in circle mm, I find this coin the most facinating of the Tower series, a real mess of a coin and out of the 8 known none are in great shape (one just sold with a well known dealer at a VERY good price!) Osborne briefly wrote about it, Sharp said it was probably struck at a time of mint transition when most skilled workers left the Tower mint, this shows in the re-engraving of old dies but what I find crazy is in just 8 examples I know of 3 different obverse dies were used, to me this must have been a trial piece of some kind and at a very interesting time during the civil war, a real history coin which deserves more study. This coin is also apparently related to the 'Briot' crown with the same mark (3 known) and the 3a2 Half crown same mark (2 known) both of which are companion coins to this shilling and probably made again as a trial/test piece.

This is one small reason why I love these coins, I am constantly finding quirky new twists and turns, if only to keep myself happy

Do you know who bought it? I was too late.

I've have been asking around but no I don't know. I thought it a good price at first then after realising it was one of the Carlyon-Britton coins..well

[coin watch 1]

There are so many Charles Tower shilling dies evident that a complete or even near so study would be impossible the conclude, but for me this is where the interest holds. It is true some type dies where made up in sections which can be seen when comparing coins of the same portrait type, this being (I find) most evident in the likes of the 'common' E2 bust make-up, these subtle differences are also seen in most of the portraits while also in the meantime coins of the following class: C1,C3,F4 for example so far are (from what I have seen) having been struck from one die for each type which only adds to its considered rarity. But interestingly there are also one or two coins which are considered rare but have a number of differing dies, for example the Sharp F7 with the triangle in circle mm, I find this coin the most facinating of the Tower series, a real mess of a coin and out of the 8 known none are in great shape (one just sold with a well known dealer at a VERY good price!) Osborne briefly wrote about it, Sharp said it was probably struck at a time of mint transition when most skilled workers left the Tower mint, this shows in the re-engraving of old dies but what I find crazy is in just 8 examples I know of 3 different obverse dies were used, to me this must have been a trial piece of some kind and at a very interesting time during the civil war, a real history coin which deserves more study. This coin is also apparently related to the 'Briot' crown with the same mark (3 known) and the 3a2 Half crown same mark (2 known) both of which are companion coins to this shilling and probably made again as a trial/test piece.

This is one small reason why I love these coins, I am constantly finding quirky new twists and turns, if only to keep myself happy

Thanks for the information, superb stuff, really appreciated!

When you say re-engraved dies, are we talking re-worked, as in repaired/updated with puncheons, or did they literally hand-work current dies for betterment?

Also, forgive my ignorance, but when it is said there are x numbers known of any coin, where does that information come from, where would I locate such records myself?

Thanks again,

Stuart

Yes the use of old dies re-engraved which in this case with the F7 shilling a probable re-touched F3 coin die. But then not uncommon in practice as all over marks are re-engraved dies too.

The number of any particular coin known can only be said for the ones that have been brought to light through illustrated previous collections or known coins in current collections, like this coin (F7) I know of the Brooker 2, Carlyon-Britton 2 British Museum 2 and another 2 I know of in a current collection, unless of course others come to light!

[TomGoodheart 403]

Do you know who bought it? I was too late.

It was the person I suspected.

[Rob 3,152]

Do you know who bought it? I was too late.

It was the person I suspected.

That narrows it down to two or three. B****r, I had a choice (still have) of the Briot Crown or F7 for the T in C slot. No prizes for guessing the easier of the two.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Rob

[TomGoodheart 403]

Do you know who bought it? I was too late.

It was the person I suspected.

That narrows it down to two or three. B****r, I had a choice (still have) of the Briot Crown or F7 for the T in C slot. No prizes for guessing the easier of the two.

mm .. well, if you will set yourself these challenges Rob ..

[Rob 3,152]

Do you know who bought it? I was too late.

It was the person I suspected.

That narrows it down to two or three. B****r, I had a choice (still have) of the Briot Crown or F7 for the T in C slot. No prizes for guessing the easier of the two.

mm .. well, if you will set yourself these challenges Rob ..

Serves me right for seeking diversity.

[coin watch 1]

Do you know who bought it? I was too late.

It was the person I suspected.

That narrows it down to two or three. B****r, I had a choice (still have) of the Briot Crown or F7 for the T in C slot. No prizes for guessing the easier of the two.

Rob I'm Just being nosey (but please tell ) which Briot crown would that be?

[Rob 3,152]

Do you know who bought it? I was too late.

It was the person I suspected.

That narrows it down to two or three. B****r, I had a choice (still have) of the Briot Crown or F7 for the T in C slot. No prizes for guessing the easier of the two.

Rob I'm Just being nosey (but please tell ) which Briot crown would that be?

S2760 assuming one appears out of the woodwork.

[coin watch 1]

Do you know who bought it? I was too late.

It was the person I suspected.

That narrows it down to two or three. B****r, I had a choice (still have) of the Briot Crown or F7 for the T in C slot. No prizes for guessing the easier of the two.

Rob I'm Just being nosey (but please tell ) which Briot crown would that be?

S2760 assuming one appears out of the woodwork.

Blimey, I only know of the 3....the Brooker, the BM and the nice looking Ryan coin. Do you know of others?

[Rob 3,152]

Do you know who bought it? I was too late.

It was the person I suspected.

That narrows it down to two or three. B****r, I had a choice (still have) of the Briot Crown or F7 for the T in C slot. No prizes for guessing the easier of the two.

Rob I'm Just being nosey (but please tell ) which Briot crown would that be?

S2760 assuming one appears out of the woodwork.

Blimey, I only know of the 3....the Brooker, the BM and the nice looking Ryan coin. Do you know of others?

Nope. But you can never exclude another example appearing out of the blue.

[coin watch 1]

Do you know who bought it? I was too late.

It was the person I suspected.

That narrows it down to two or three. B****r, I had a choice (still have) of the Briot Crown or F7 for the T in C slot. No prizes for guessing the easier of the two.

Rob I'm Just being nosey (but please tell ) which Briot crown would that be?

S2760 assuming one appears out of the woodwork.

Blimey, I only know of the 3....the Brooker, the BM and the nice looking Ryan coin. Do you know of others?

Nope. But you can never exclude another example appearing out of the blue.

If another did appear how would you expect it to affect that 'book' price? cos it does seem a little OTT to me when comparing other rarities of equal interest!

[Rob 3,152]

Do you know who bought it? I was too late.

It was the person I suspected.

That narrows it down to two or three. B****r, I had a choice (still have) of the Briot Crown or F7 for the T in C slot. No prizes for guessing the easier of the two.

Rob I'm Just being nosey (but please tell ) which Briot crown would that be?

S2760 assuming one appears out of the woodwork.

Blimey, I only know of the 3....the Brooker, the BM and the nice looking Ryan coin. Do you know of others?

Nope. But you can never exclude another example appearing out of the blue.

If another did appear how would you expect it to affect that 'book' price? cos it does seem a little OTT to me when comparing other rarities of equal interest!

Probably not a lot because there are more than two collectors of crowns with deep pockets. Grade would obviously have a bearing, but I can see an example in fine easily making £5K irrespective of the current flight to quality on account of the acknowledged rarity. If Roddy got hold of one, you could add a few K to book and it would sell. Briot's coinage is a strange beast. The halfcrown I picked up earlier this year to my mind was cheap given the rarity. The mules are definitely commoner for both halfcrowns and shillings, but probably too subtle for most collectors. You are also looking at something a tad more esoteric which always puts a number of collectors off as they have few or no reference points. Some of these Briot coins are very, very rare - especially the anchor marked pieces.

There are clearly more halfcrown collectors than crowns on account of them being cheaper, but at the top end the demand is probably comparable.

[Peter 615]

Just know what you collect and the market price.I have had trays pulled off me by dealers.I do love the Midland fair.There are bargains out there.

[Coinery 1,161]

I couldn't resist! Weak strike, but I really like the 'feel' of this one!

[Coinery 1,161]

And I just can't make a decision about whether I actually like the colouration on this one or not?

[Coinery 1,161]

And I just can't make a decision about whether I actually like the colouration on this one or not?

I'm thinking probably not! Any ideas on the 'irregularity' running from the harp and through the central crossbar?

[TomGoodheart 403]

And I just can't make a decision about whether I actually like the colouration on this one or not?

I'm thinking probably not! Any ideas on the 'irregularity' running from the harp and through the central crossbar?

Well, any raised areas on the coin will be down to marks on the die, so maybe a dint or damage there? Eventually dies were hammered so much that they would crack, you can occasionlly see at least the start of that on coins. I'm thinking in this case, something was dropped on the die causing a cut.

Interestingly your coin is from a different die from other coins I've seen with contraction marks used instead of stops on the reverse. I had assumed there would be only one, but apparently not .. curious.

[Coinery 1,161]

And I just can't make a decision about whether I actually like the colouration on this one or not?

I'm thinking probably not! Any ideas on the 'irregularity' running from the harp and through the central crossbar?

Well, any raised areas on the coin will be down to marks on the die, so maybe a dint or damage there? Eventually dies were hammered so much that they would crack, you can occasionlly see at least the start of that on coins. I'm thinking in this case, something was dropped on the die causing a cut.

Interestingly your coin is from a different die from other coins I've seen with contraction marks used instead of stops on the reverse. I had assumed there would be only one, but apparently not .. curious.

I really haven't read enough C1 literature to competently comment. I have to confess though I'm really surprised to hear the thoughts were just for a single reverse die for contraction marks! Now I'm curious, too!

Does Bull cover shillings too, or am I just looking at Morrieson for the next level read?

[Rob 3,152]

And I just can't make a decision about whether I actually like the colouration on this one or not?

I'm thinking probably not! Any ideas on the 'irregularity' running from the harp and through the central crossbar?

Well, any raised areas on the coin will be down to marks on the die, so maybe a dint or damage there? Eventually dies were hammered so much that they would crack, you can occasionlly see at least the start of that on coins. I'm thinking in this case, something was dropped on the die causing a cut.

Interestingly your coin is from a different die from other coins I've seen with contraction marks used instead of stops on the reverse. I had assumed there would be only one, but apparently not .. curious.

I really haven't read enough C1 literature to competently comment. I have to confess though I'm really surprised to hear the thoughts were just for a single reverse die for contraction marks! Now I'm curious, too!

Does Bull cover shillings too, or am I just looking at Morrieson for the next level read?

I'm wondering if the plethora of stop variations has any connection to the person who cut the die. I've noticed a strong connection between engravers in the W/SA series, and Bristol also appears to have links to specific people. As it is unlikely that a strict controll would be introduced under wartime conditions, we should probably assume that the indicators were present before the onset of the Civil War. Groups of pellets, pellets in the field, unusual stops etc. may well have a hidden meaning.

[coin watch 1]

And I just can't make a decision about whether I actually like the colouration on this one or not?

I'm thinking probably not! Any ideas on the 'irregularity' running from the harp and through the central crossbar?

Well, any raised areas on the coin will be down to marks on the die, so maybe a dint or damage there? Eventually dies were hammered so much that they would crack, you can occasionlly see at least the start of that on coins. I'm thinking in this case, something was dropped on the die causing a cut.

Interestingly your coin is from a different die from other coins I've seen with contraction marks used instead of stops on the reverse. I had assumed there would be only one, but apparently not .. curious.

The Bull tomes cover Charles Half crowns only, though it covers Tower as well as all provincials.

I really haven't read enough C1 literature to competently comment. I have to confess though I'm really surprised to hear the thoughts were just for a single reverse die for contraction marks! Now I'm curious, too!

Does Bull cover shillings too, or am I just looking at Morrieson for the next level read?

[coin watch 1]

Just the first line above!.......God I might get used to this reply system one day!

[TomGoodheart 403]

I'm wondering if the plethora of stop variations has any connection to the person who cut the die. I've noticed a strong connection between engravers in the W/SA series, and Bristol also appears to have links to specific people. As it is unlikely that a strict controll would be introduced under wartime conditions, we should probably assume that the indicators were present before the onset of the Civil War. Groups of pellets, pellets in the field, unusual stops etc. may well have a hidden meaning.

I think this is a very logical conclusion. The stop variations seem to occur on similar coins so it's not as if they are to show different trial versions of a die. I suppose there would be an advantage to know how long a particular die has been in use and a differing combination of stops would make identification easier, but I am inclined to think the variations are more related to die makers rather than quality control at the Mint. A contemporary document detailing such features would be brilliant but I don't know of such a thing. And given that my impression is that the workings of the Mint in those days was kept under wraps, if not actually secret, it's likely that we're stuck with conjecture.

[Coinery 1,161]

I'm wondering if the plethora of stop variations has any connection to the person who cut the die. I've noticed a strong connection between engravers in the W/SA series, and Bristol also appears to have links to specific people. As it is unlikely that a strict controll would be introduced under wartime conditions, we should probably assume that the indicators were present before the onset of the Civil War. Groups of pellets, pellets in the field, unusual stops etc. may well have a hidden meaning.

I think this is a very logical conclusion. The stop variations seem to occur on similar coins so it's not as if they are to show different trial versions of a die. I suppose there would be an advantage to know how long a particular die has been in use and a differing combination of stops would make identification easier, but I am inclined to think the variations are more related to die makers rather than quality control at the Mint. A contemporary document detailing such features would be brilliant but I don't know of such a thing. And given that my impression is that the workings of the Mint in those days was kept under wraps, if not actually secret, it's likely that we're stuck with conjecture.

With your original thoughts being upon 1 die, wouldn't that preclude this idea? If it was down to individual workers, wouldn't there be more than just a passing die?

Just out of interest, is this really only the second reverse die of this class that you've seen with contraction marks?

[TomGoodheart 403]

With your original thoughts being upon 1 die, wouldn't that preclude this idea? If it was down to individual workers, wouldn't there be more than just a passing die?

Just out of interest, is this really only the second reverse die of this class that you've seen with contraction marks?

Ah, but the use of contraction marks (by which I mean the ' bit of the normal ! that divides the legend abbreviations) instead of the normal stops ( ^. ) on the reverse on this series is a different thing from using multiple stops near the privy mark.

The latter I believe is decoration, or a way to identify dies .. for some purpose. The former I believe(d) was a die maker's whim. He couldn't find the stop punch and decided to save time by using the ' punch as an alternative. Same as using an inverted V instead of an A. And yes, I had only seen two coins like this before, both the same reverse die.

If this die quirk was just for expediency, it would make sense there would only be one die. The existence of a second one is .. a bit odd.