The British Economy

[Rob 3,152]

I've reached the conclusion that the economy is buggered. Today I needed some springs, which by the nature of the application can be as long, short, close coiled, loosely coiled, variably thick gauge wire and the material also required to suit. I had a choice. First option was to buy a spares kit from France which contained the requisite number of springs along with a lot of things I didn't need for in excess of £600, or secondly I could get 10 made in a local jobbing shop. Trying to find the latter was difficult, but eventually found one locally in Rochdale - cost of making them as a one off £30. Run by a couple of 60-somethings, with no apprentices and presumably a business that is going to fold on their retirements, I see a country that has almost lost it's ability to make and supply the basic building blocks used in every day things. Unless we can produce basic items, we cannot hope to manufacture equipment in competition with the rest of the world.

Waving the flag, I think it is incumbent on everyone to buy UK made goods wherever possible even if it costs a few percentage points more than an import. By doing so it gives people gainful employment who would otherwise only be sat in front of the telly waiting for Chrismas to arrive, something which far too many people are doing. Since the turn of the millennium it has become increasingly difficult to source any simple engineered product, but without this resource you are left with the unpalatable option of buying a new import.

The trade balance used to be an important statistic, sometimes a billion or two positive, sometime the same negative, but these days always negative and many billions so. Clearly every country cannot have a positive balance, but as long as imports and exports are close to parity, a bit either way is sustainable as long as the polarity switches regularly.

[TomGoodheart 400]

Mmmm .. I kinda agree. People seem to forget that the reason Germany is the financial anchor of Europe while other countries such as Greece struggle is largely because Germany makes things while Greece/Portugal and even Spain grow stuff and make money from tourism. Where countries do make stuff they are often offshoots of German companies such as Seat cars.

And all the while our government (not just this one either) seem to be bent on making more and more graduates. Presumably they hope we can build a knowlwdge based economy, but forget that millions of people just aren't suited to making webpages, writing software or working in service industries where they often spend the day trying to sell more services over the phone. Or the fact that other countries also offer degrees and if nothing else their graduates speak two languages (English being one) in addition to their discipline.

We need polytechnics and technical colleges and apprenticeships to capitalise on the skills of people who are good with their hands, that think practically and need to see the product of their labour.

And on a vaguely related theme (and because I found it interesting): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17126713

[SEnumis 0]

Peter Hitchens agrees

[Coinery 1,150]

I often despair to find you cannot find a simple replacement part for anything! I think entire industries, even countries, are dependent upon the future supplies of, not individual replacement pieces, but entire units!

I had an electric window unit fail a couple of month's back. I dropped it into the garage, being too busy (and possibly too lazy) to look into it myself, and the quote came back £150 + VAT! When I queried the problem, I was told 'the window motor's knackered,' to which I replied 'but I can hear it working'? He then replied 'it's something inside the unit, and that will cost you ????, they only supply the unit!'

The short of it is I took the car home, pulled my sleeves up, and dismantled the unit (it had 4 screw, not moulded, so why no spares?). Issue: Just a failed but simple flat, plastic, component with a little hole, a notch, etc.....made one myself in 15 minutes!

We need more people who can jump on a lathe in this country, and know their way around an old machine shop! Definitely a dying breed!

Edited July 19, 2012 by Coinery

[TomGoodheart 400]

We need more people who can jump on a lathe in this country, and know there way around an old machine shop!

Here, here! Then we can produce our own fake coins instead of having to import them from China!!

[Coinery 1,150]

We need more people who can jump on a lathe in this country, and know there way around an old machine shop!

Here, here! Then we can produce our own fake coins instead of having to import them from China!!

There's a big enough market for them here it seems, could restimulate the whole British economy!

[Peter 615]

I remember from my youth "Buy British" plastic bags with a Union Jack on them that were made in Hong Kong.

More recently my daughters wanted some Union Jack bunting,flags,hats,flipflops,.They came back from town with 3 carrier bags full.I was expecting a £50-£60 bill but it came to £8 as they had gone to poundland....all Chinese imports.

I try to only buy British meat and we source the majority of our fruit and veg locally (apart from the exotic).

I work in the construction industry and value engineered out Swedish sanitary ware,French suspended ceilings.The Iron fittings and locks have to be Swedish(Abaloy)so we couldn't change these.It is the dumb Architects who spec all this.This is for a major Water company.

We were also forced to use an Italian company to do the steel spall plates on MOD installations which I know for a fact was sourced from Turkey.(A spall plate is the inner lining to bomb proof concrete covered structures).I also think the Italian company was sponsored by the Italian government....too much info but we don't seem to be protecting our own industries.

[Rob 3,152]

I remember from my youth "Buy British" plastic bags with a Union Jack on them that were made in Hong Kong.

More recently my daughters wanted some Union Jack bunting,flags,hats,flipflops,.They came back from town with 3 carrier bags full.I was expecting a £50-£60 bill but it came to £8 as they had gone to poundland....all Chinese imports.

I try to only buy British meat and we source the majority of our fruit and veg locally (apart from the exotic).

I work in the construction industry and value engineered out Swedish sanitary ware,French suspended ceilings.The Iron fittings and locks have to be Swedish(Abaloy)so we couldn't change these.It is the dumb Architects who spec all this.This is for a major Water company.

We were also forced to use an Italian company to do the steel spall plates on MOD installations which I know for a fact was sourced from Turkey.(A spall plate is the inner lining to bomb proof concrete covered structures).I also think the Italian company was sponsored by the Italian government....too much info but we don't seem to be protecting our own industries.

It isn't protection that industry needs, rather people who are prepared to work for the long haul building and maintaining a business that produces things that other people want and are prepared to pay for. Family businesses who can pass on a thriving enterprise to the next generation and who aren't at the mercy of pension funds and the stock market in general. Sure you will have some business where there is nobody to inherit, but a succesful business is more likely to be adopted by the offspring than a ticking over one. The rewards are out there for anyone prepared to put in the time and effort and who is prepared to forego instant riches and gratification. Logically there should be no shortage of people looking to set up a business given the economic downturn, this being a very good time to carve out a viable business. An economic downturn may not give instant riches, but it does stand you in good stead for the future, requiring as it inevitably will the necessary tight financial control to build a profitable business. Most successful western based manufacturers thrive on the back of quality. The cheap end of the market is invariably supplied by businesses located where labour costs are least.

[Red Riley 2]

Peter Hitchens agrees

I would take everything that man says with a barrel-load of salt.

[Red Riley 2]

It isn't protection that industry needs, rather people who are prepared to work for the long haul building and maintaining a business that produces things that other people want and are prepared to pay for. Family businesses who can pass on a thriving enterprise to the next generation and who aren't at the mercy of pension funds and the stock market in general. Sure you will have some business where there is nobody to inherit, but a succesful business is more likely to be adopted by the offspring than a ticking over one. The rewards are out there for anyone prepared to put in the time and effort and who is prepared to forego instant riches and gratification. Logically there should be no shortage of people looking to set up a business given the economic downturn, this being a very good time to carve out a viable business. An economic downturn may not give instant riches, but it does stand you in good stead for the future, requiring as it inevitably will the necessary tight financial control to build a profitable business. Most successful western based manufacturers thrive on the back of quality. The cheap end of the market is invariably supplied by businesses located where labour costs are least.

I did read the other day that production costs in the Far East are rising in comparison with maintaining a wholly UK based production, which is in itself the inevitable result of increasing affluence in the Far East. We can't turn back the clock and un-invent the global market (horrible phrase Iknow...)

but when it has become cheaper to manufacture goods here, then the factories will return. In the long-term, manufacturing will zigzag across the globe looking for the most efficient (not always the cheapest) place to site their production facilities. At the last count a lot of the small engineering works you are referring to were sited in Eastern Europe.

[Peckris 579]

I remember from my youth "Buy British" plastic bags with a Union Jack on them that were made in Hong Kong.

More recently my daughters wanted some Union Jack bunting,flags,hats,flipflops,.They came back from town with 3 carrier bags full.I was expecting a £50-£60 bill but it came to £8 as they had gone to poundland....all Chinese imports.

I try to only buy British meat and we source the majority of our fruit and veg locally (apart from the exotic).

I work in the construction industry and value engineered out Swedish sanitary ware,French suspended ceilings.The Iron fittings and locks have to be Swedish(Abaloy)so we couldn't change these.It is the dumb Architects who spec all this.This is for a major Water company.

We were also forced to use an Italian company to do the steel spall plates on MOD installations which I know for a fact was sourced from Turkey.(A spall plate is the inner lining to bomb proof concrete covered structures).I also think the Italian company was sponsored by the Italian government....too much info but we don't seem to be protecting our own industries.

You mean Harold Wilson's "I'm Backing Britain" campaign? I have memories of it - 1968, I think. Union Flags everywhere, on everything. Perhaps he thought we would forget all about devaluation if we had enough red white and blue stickers. I think you're all right about our woeful loss of manufacturing industries. I blame it on Maggie Thatcher myself, though it is also true of the big technology companies - look at Apple for example, all their gear is made by Foxconn in China.

However, we also mustn't forget that this tiny island was world leader in manufacturing through the entire 19th Century, and it wasn't until the Edwardian era that Germany began to overhaul us. In terms of our numbers and size, we couldn't stay ahead forever. And it's also been a fact for a long time that industry flees to the places of lowest costs, i.e. wages. If it helps to balance out the world economy it's not such a bad thing - we have to get used to the boundaries between the first two, and the Third World, blurring over time.

But we have forgotten basic skills and that's a bad thing. We should relearn some of them, and not just be a tourist destination with a few plumbers, electricians, and mechanics thrown in.

[azda 979]

If we could make coins and cars as good as the Chinese and Germans we'd be laughing

[Peckris 579]

If we could make coins and cars as good as the Chinese and Germans we'd be laughing

We still make the best cars, just not mass market. And it's no coincidence that the majority of Formula One teams are based in this country.

[azda 979]

Britain makes the best cars? Really? Which ones. Porsche, Rolls Royce, BMW, Audi or VW? I'm at a loss as to which you're reffering to Peck, can't be the Bugatti veryon either because that's also German. Give me a clue me old bean.

Bugger i forgot Mercedes to, surely that F1 team can't be based in the UK, nor Ferrari. Don't even want to start on the modern day coinage, its dire

Edited July 20, 2012 by azda

[Red Riley 2]

Britain makes the best cars? Really? Which ones. Porsche, Rolls Royce, BMW, Audi or VW? I'm at a loss as to which you're reffering to Peck, can't be the Bugatti veryon either because that's also German. Give me a clue me old bean.

Bugger i forgot Mercedes to, surely that F1 team can't be based in the UK, nor Ferrari. Don't even want to start on the modern day coinage, its dire

Rolls Royce and Bentley are still made in this country as are McLaren, Jaguar, Lotus and that old perennial, Morgan.

Nissan, Honda, BMW, Toyota and General Motors all have substantial manufacturing plants in the UK.

Mostly foreign owned but they still provide large numbers of engineering jobs here.

Ford don't have an assembly line any more but still make a lot of component parts in various locations around the UK.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Red Riley

[azda 979]

Sorry Derek, Peck Said Britain makes the best cars, my statement was intended as to which British cars? Not foreign owned companies who apply the Technology and Hand it to the UK to produce.

I also meant cars that are affordable to Joe public and not the millionaire types

Edited July 20, 2012 by azda

[Coinery 1,150]

Sorry Derek, Peck Said Britain makes the best cars, my statement was intended as to which British cars? Not foreign owned companies who apply the Technology and Hand it to the UK to produce.

I also meant cars that are affordable to Joe public and not the millionaire types

The best never comes cheap! I learnt that getting married and buying coins!

[azda 979]

Getting married is never cheap Stuart, the divorce Is costly to. I once spoke to a guy on eBay who was selling some amazing coins. He said it was basically all he had left after the divorce settlement, yes, he had to sell his amazing collection

[Coinery 1,150]

Getting married is never cheap Stuart, the divorce Is costly to. I once spoke to a guy on eBay who was selling some amazing coins. He said it was basically all he had left after the divorce settlement, yes, he had to sell his amazing collection

Well here's to longevity it all things matrimonial then!

[Rob 3,152]

My wife's a lot cheaper to run than the coin collection.

[Peter 615]

Keep them sweet.

I have been married for 22 years and been together for 26 years.We all have faults but work around them.

My finest tray is out of sight.

[Peckris 579]

Sorry Derek, Peck Said Britain makes the best cars, my statement was intended as to which British cars? Not foreign owned companies who apply the Technology and Hand it to the UK to produce.

I also meant cars that are affordable to Joe public and not the millionaire types

I never said a good car was defined as "affordable to joe public", in fact I specifically said "not mass market" before you moved the goalposts. Derek gave you a list of marques, to which you can add Caterham, TVR, and probably some other minority but still very good marques. As for foreign owned, just because Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, etc have been taken over by foreign owners doesn't make the cars any less British, as they are still designed and built here, we just don't see any of the profits. Land Rover may be owned by BMW, the Mini also, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the cars are designed and built here.

The only mass market manufacturer we have left is Vauxhall who have been owned by General Motors since the 1920s. (Did Ford pack up their British operations?)

There are EIGHT F1 teams based in Britain - that includes MacLaren, Red Bull, Caterham, Force India, Lotus, among others. Just listen to the interviews when there's a GP on. Even Ferrari use some British expertise e.g. Rob Smedley who is Massa's mechanic.

[azda 979]

Is'nt TVR now Russian owned, last time i heard?

P.s, if the Cars were so good in British hands why are the now flourishing under foreign ownership?

What i'm getting at is you're Talking abiut niche markets in which probably 80% of the UK Population could'nt afford. Where is British industry now, down the shitter because each government blames the last for all the problems, yet none of them can sit round a table and look at the situation and hold their hands up.

They cannot and will not Fight for the common man, they are to interested in lining their own pockets 1st and Bowing down to Brussels. These tossers do not have Britain in their best interests, just their monthly salaries and blaming each other for this and that and forever going round in circles.

And don't get me started on the welfare state, thats just a joke

Edited July 20, 2012 by azda

[Peckris 579]

Is'nt TVR now Russian owned, last time i heard?

P.s, if the Cars were so good in British hands why are the now flourishing under foreign ownership?

What i'm getting at is you're Talking abiut niche markets in which probably 80% of the UK Population could'nt afford. Where is British industry now, down the shitter because each government blames the last for all the problems, yet none of them can sit round a table and look at the situation and hold their hands up.

They cannot and will not Fight for the common man, they are to interested in lining their own pockets 1st and Bowing down to Brussels. These tossers do not have Britain in their best interests, just their monthly salaries and blaming each other for this and that and forever going round in circles.

And don't get me started on the welfare state, thats just a joke

Economies of scale, that's why - it's easier for a mass producer to sweep up a minority producer. And Britain has never been much cop at industrial management. Finally, those marques were internationally recognised as extremely good, which is why they were easy to sell off to the likes of Ford and BMW. The same couldn't be said of Rover which turned into a disaster in the 1970s and wasn't able to be pulled back from its self-inflicted brink.

I suspect we have opposing reasons for regarding the welfare state as a joke. To disabled people in Britain, it feels as if their crutches are being kicked away; this government tacitly supports all those 'scrounger' 'workshy' headlines thrown out by such as The Daily Mail, Express, and Sun, with scant regard for the actual facts and figures. The bottom line is that the 'powers that be' have decided that the current levels of disability cannot be afforded, and as a result we are a sacrifice to the Tory gods.

[scottishmoney 29]

Curious and quite ironic it is to find this discussion - for I am at the moment reading "Chocolate Wars" by Deborah Cadbury. The premise of the book is how Quaker ethics played no small part in the industrialisation of Great Britain during the 18th and 19th centuries. Their beliefs were such that they had to run honest and equitable businesses in a Godly fashion, with a dedication to their workers. Happy workers were the cornerstone of the economy. Manufacturing and self sufficiency were primary for the basis of a sound economic situation.

How such contrast so much with our 21st century reality. Surely greed have taken primacy, look at the banking scandals. Manufacturing, consumption, and self sufficiency are out-sourced to lesser economic situations with significantly less paid workers that do NOT contribute anything to economy because their economic situation doesn't permit such "extravagance" as purchasing the iPod they assembled.

From our vantage it might appear as though there were indeed faults with early theories regarding manufacturing and self sufficiency. But I am suggesting perhaps we need to slow down and take a took - the economic miracle of 19th century Britain surely must have some lesson for us now.