Value of provenance

[pies 33]

Hi all just wondering what sort of value do you associate with provenance on a coin ie previous tickets or bills of sale

Seems to me alot of value is placed on these and to me it seems a bit high

[Mongo 1]

This is something I do not understand yet pies, I am sure I will "get it" in time though.

If Bob Smith from number 22 was selling a coin, cheaper than an indentical grade one from the ex collection of a certain person, I would give my money to Bob Smith!

I have much to learn

[Rob 3,152]

Hi all just wondering what sort of value do you associate with provenance on a coin ie previous tickets or bills of sale

Seems to me alot of value is placed on these and to me it seems a bit high

It all depends on the coin first and foremost, but also the names involved. Certain collectors of 100 years ago or more recent times always command a premium because you know that they only collected (and were usually offered) the best available. Or maybe their collection was a definitive one of a series. Maybe they wrote the book. Some collectors are known to have been patient enough to wait for the right coin to come along. It isn't a failsafe system, but works most of the time. Know the history and you have a better hedge against misfortune.

I remember bemoaning to the late Colin Cooke the fact that a certain member of these boards always outbid me. The coin in question had a long provenance. Aside from the obvious statement that my pockets simply weren't deep enough, he was magnanimous enough to say that there wasn't anything wrong with my collecting tastes, as the coin was from a who's who of top grade collectors. C'est la vie.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Rob

[Peter 615]

If provenance is required Rob is your man.I have a couple of Romans with coin tickets 100 years old.I did buy a Dr Johnstone/Cooke farthing.If you buy at the top end of the market provenance is everything.

I work in 100's not 1,000's

[HistoricCoinage 147]

If provenance is required Rob is your man.I have a couple of Romans with coin tickets 100 years old.I did buy a Dr Johnstone/Cooke farthing.If you buy at the top end of the market provenance is everything.

I work in 100's not 1,000's

Provenance has a differing level of importance to different people. If a coin I buy has provenance then it's an added bonus and I would have bought it anyway. Although a coin that has provenance dating back to 1786 isn't bad.

[Peckris 579]

Hi all just wondering what sort of value do you associate with provenance on a coin ie previous tickets or bills of sale

Seems to me alot of value is placed on these and to me it seems a bit high

Rob is the man, and he's given a good answer. However the key phrase is "if you're buying at the top end of the market". If, like me, you have gradually made your focus the milled series, then only the very highest grade, rarest, patterns and some proofs, or new varieties will count. Needless to say, I don't own any such piece. As for the post-1816 milled, there's little there that would benefit from provenance - patterns, the rarest proofs of William IV and Victoria, unique items, that's about it.

What seems to have replaced provenance is the TPG services. Its ironic that a slabbed coin commands more of a premium than the old-fashioned kind of provenance that floats Rob's boat and is infinitely more interesting than a plastic slab.

[Red Riley 2]

What seems to have replaced provenance is the TPG services. Its ironic that a slabbed coin commands more of a premium than the old-fashioned kind of provenance that floats Rob's boat and is infinitely more interesting than a plastic slab.

Spot on Peck. I have never seen a slab with a space for an old coin ticket.

[Peckris 579]

What seems to have replaced provenance is the TPG services. Its ironic that a slabbed coin commands more of a premium than the old-fashioned kind of provenance that floats Rob's boat and is infinitely more interesting than a plastic slab.

Spot on Peck. I have never seen a slab with a space for an old coin ticket.

Quite right! They should have thought of that right at the start. If any are lurking here, how about it?

[Mongo 1]

Hi all just wondering what sort of value do you associate with provenance on a coin ie previous tickets or bills of sale

Seems to me alot of value is placed on these and to me it seems a bit high

Rob is the man, and he's given a good answer. However the key phrase is "if you're buying at the top end of the market". If, like me, you have gradually made your focus the milled series, then only the very highest grade, rarest, patterns and some proofs, or new varieties will count. Needless to say, I don't own any such piece. As for the post-1816 milled, there's little there that would benefit from provenance - patterns, the rarest proofs of William IV and Victoria, unique items, that's about it.

What seems to have replaced provenance is the TPG services. Its ironic that a slabbed coin commands more of a premium than the old-fashioned kind of provenance that floats Rob's boat and is infinitely more interesting than a plastic slab.

That is probably why I do not "get it" yet, Peck. I guess there are not too many 1967 Pennies that come with Provenance!

I do see where the appeal is for others now though.

[Peter 615]

Now there is a market.

Together with free range fried chicken which doesn't taste of cardboard.Also a proper chippy in France...You can stick your french chips.

I do like the big French lunch stew with hot bread and raw red wine with water...followed by a sneakie French ciggie.

I need a lottery win urgently.

[Generic Lad 25]

Yeah, I'd love to own a coin with great provenance but, at the lower end of the market where I am, there really isn't much recorded. Really the only coins I have with any sort of provenance at all are the ones passed down to me from my great grandmother nothing too exciting (1921-D Morgan, 1836 Mexican 8 Reales, some generic Canadian coins, etc.) but I have to say it does increase the value, at least to me.

Perhaps the most interesting story I've found relating to provenance can be found here: http://www.numsoc.net/imptealby.html

By the way, is there really any way to establish provenance from just a generic coin? I've got a Gordian III double-denarius (slabbed by NGC) with a collection number inked on the back, would there really be any way to find out what collection that came from (or even the era that would use ink or paint to paint a number on the reverse of a coin?)

[Peter 615]

Top grade stuff can usually be traced back(a bit harder with hammered as they are still coming out of the ground).I still like the pleasing eye appeal.I still have loads of Liz 11 copper in tubes and bought 40 1959 Scottish 1/-.Sometimes I can't resist....amongst 20 1720 farthings.Buy what you like.

[Rob 3,152]

What seems to have replaced provenance is the TPG services. Its ironic that a slabbed coin commands more of a premium than the old-fashioned kind of provenance that floats Rob's boat and is infinitely more interesting than a plastic slab.

Spot on Peck. I have never seen a slab with a space for an old coin ticket.

And you are reliant on the TPG getting it right, which is a real problem. Famous names from the past are rarely noted on the slab, but I've seen two coins for certain with the incorrect provenance on the label. One I now own and the other I wasn't prepared to bid up as the name (Norweb) appeals to US collectors who accordingly were bidding by number plus name.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Rob

[Coinery 1,157]

What seems to have replaced provenance is the TPG services. Its ironic that a slabbed coin commands more of a premium than the old-fashioned kind of provenance that floats Rob's boat and is infinitely more interesting than a plastic slab.

Spot on Peck. I have never seen a slab with a space for an old coin ticket.

And you are reliant on the TPG getting it right, which is a real problem. Famous names from the past are rarely noted on the slab, but I've seen two coins for certain with the incorrect provenance on the label. One I now own and the other I wasn't prepared to bid up as the name (Norweb) appeals to US collectors who accordingly were bidding by number plus name.

Not to mention the fact that there are occasions where TPGC's can't even get the denomination right on a slab!

[Peter 615]

What seems to have replaced provenance is the TPG services. Its ironic that a slabbed coin commands more of a premium than the old-fashioned kind of provenance that floats Rob's boat and is infinitely more interesting than a plastic slab.

Spot on Peck. I have never seen a slab with a space for an old coin ticket.

And you are reliant on the TPG getting it right, which is a real problem. Famous names from the past are rarely noted on the slab, but I've seen two coins for certain with the incorrect provenance on the label. One I now own and the other I wasn't prepared to bid up as the name (Norweb) appeals to US collectors who accordingly were bidding by number plus name.

Not to mention the fact that there are occasions where TPGC's can't even get the denomination right on a slab!

I have pointed out errors in Exeter and my local museum but they don't care.

Mrs Peter finds it quite funny.But there again I couldn't tell the difference between a skull of a rabbit to a hare.

[Rob 3,152]

Yeah, I'd love to own a coin with great provenance but, at the lower end of the market where I am, there really isn't much recorded. Really the only coins I have with any sort of provenance at all are the ones passed down to me from my great grandmother nothing too exciting (1921-D Morgan, 1836 Mexican 8 Reales, some generic Canadian coins, etc.) but I have to say it does increase the value, at least to me.

Perhaps the most interesting story I've found relating to provenance can be found here: http://www.numsoc.net/imptealby.html

By the way, is there really any way to establish provenance from just a generic coin? I've got a Gordian III double-denarius (slabbed by NGC) with a collection number inked on the back, would there really be any way to find out what collection that came from (or even the era that would use ink or paint to paint a number on the reverse of a coin?)

Alan likes his Tealby pennies. He gave a talk at the local society a year or so ago which was quite interesting considering the bulk of the available research material has no detail. Having to identify the dies from fragments of the legend or bust is ok once in a while, but as a routine exercise can become somewhat tedious. A well struck Tealby is an anomaly. I would like an example or two, but could never embrace the series with a great deal of enthusiasm.

[TomGoodheart 403]

That is probably why I do not "get it" yet, Peck. I guess there are not too many 1967 Pennies that come with Provenance!

I happen to have one that could come with my ticket if you're interested ...

For me provenance (particularly in the form of previous collector's tickets) has a number of attractions. Mainly it's an additional link to the past. It's nice to have a coin that was also owned by another collector, particularly if they are reasonably well known such as John Brooker. It's also reassuring if your coin was illustrated as it makes it rather more likely to be genuine when you have a photograph with which to compare your purchase .. and to back up your coin if you ever came to sell.

Whether provenance is worth additional cash money however .. rather depends on the coin and your own sentiments. While some coins from old collections may be very decent, but not all are. Yes, most likely they will have been the best example that collector could find at the time, but time and in particular metal detecting, have brought many coins to light that are as good or in some cases better than those available to collectors 100, 50 or even 20 years ago.

I buy what I like. If that coin has an interesting provenance and I'm not paying through the nose for it, all well and good. But I'm not obsessive about it. I lack an ex Lingford coin. Similarly Lockett. And I sold my Carlyon-Britton coin .. (it ended up with Rob). There's currently a coin once owned by Grant Francis I'd rather like if I could track it down, but that's more because it's a nice coin. The provenance would just be the cherry on top!

[TomGoodheart 403]

What seems to have replaced provenance is the TPG services. Its ironic that a slabbed coin commands more of a premium than the old-fashioned kind of provenance that floats Rob's boat and is infinitely more interesting than a plastic slab.

I was thinking this very thing this morning as, thanks to Rob's brilliant detective work, I was delighted to discover that I actually already own an ex Grant Francis and Lockett coin! Not bad for no additional purchase!

It does feel to me that provenance information is lost (or just not passed on) too readily nowadays. Whereas some people seem to fall over themselves to buy coins just because someone else has assigned them a grade.

Yes, I know that a previous owner is no automatic guarantee to quality or even authenticity. But I do believe that having bought a coin from a reputable dealer or collector doesn't hurt, particularly when it comes to selling it on.

Whereas a TPG grade, as we all know, can on occasions change upon resubmission. Because grading will always be subjective. And of course, grade is only one aspect of what gives a coin 'eye appeal' and desirability. [/rant]