1850 /46 Victoria Shilling NGC Encapsulated

[NewShillingCollector 0]

We actually contacted CGS,UK numerous times but never received a reply. Will try again this weekend.

You'd have to submit it like you would with any other TPG. They just can't answer on the strength of a picture, they'd have to have the coin in hand for identification

We just sent them an email. Yes, we figured just to send it in like we normally would but there are no options for "international" submissions. We are of course assuming there would be an added mailing fee and possibly a charge to remove from the NGC holder?

By the way, do you know if there is a difference in value between the 50/46 and the 50/49?? If we should decide to sell it, and the value is the same regardless of what the buyer believes the last number is, we may reconsider sending it.

[azda 979]

The 50/49 is regarded rarer in spink but looking at previous auction results the 50/49 has Seen a few more than an 1850. The one i uploaded to your thread was one i owned and sold this year.

I'm Not sure what yours is graded at i don't recall it being mentioned, but being in an American slab can have its downsides, ie, their grading is slacker than ours plus it has 50/46 which could make People sceptical....Its difficult to call, but i'd personally Take it Out of the slab and if you decided to sell, sell as the 50/49 variety but kerp the Ticket and maybe write a note to the buyer with an explaination of the ticket.

My 1850 was NVF and sold for £1800

[Gary D 76]

Just a hypothetical question, do you have any recourse with the TPG if you purchase a coin that has been miss-attributed on the slab or are we just talking caveat emptor.

[Red Riley 2]

Just a hypothetical question, do you have any recourse with the TPG if you purchase a coin that has been miss-attributed on the slab or are we just talking caveat emptor.

As it is far from clear cut, I think it probable that they would just challenge the findings of any other 3PG.

[azda 979]

Just a hypothetical question, do you have any recourse with the TPG if you purchase a coin that has been miss-attributed on the slab or are we just talking caveat emptor.

Would be a Good idea to ask any TPG about that, but i think they garauntee against it being a fake. Does make you wonder though, if they misattribute a penny saying its a high tide when its clearly not how will they actually know a Fake from a genuine coin. That high tide Penny is such a glaring error on their behalf, makes you Wonder

Edited August 26, 2012 by azda

[VickySilver 830]

VF35 would likely put it in the 1200 USD range. IMO no great diff between any of the 1850s - overdate or not. Overdates are IMO not bringing huge premiums as was alluded to in my earlier post.

[VickySilver 830]

Milled better handled IMO by TPGs Lowtide not withstanding. Early milled half pennies not included. LOL

[Peckris 579]

The 50/49 is regarded rarer in spink but looking at previous auction results the 50/49 has Seen a few more than an 1850. The one i uploaded to your thread was one i owned and sold this year.

I'm Not sure what yours is graded at i don't recall it being mentioned, but being in an American slab can have its downsides, ie, their grading is slacker than ours plus it has 50/46 which could make People sceptical....Its difficult to call, but i'd personally Take it Out of the slab and if you decided to sell, sell as the 50/49 variety but kerp the Ticket and maybe write a note to the buyer with an explaination of the ticket.

My 1850 was NVF and sold for £1800

No, that's not fair. It's not 'slacker', it's just different. In other words their EF is lower than ours, but is consistently lower, same with AUNC, and so on. Their grading is as consistent as ours (should be), but their grades don't exactly match ours. Just saying..

Edited August 26, 2012 by Peckris

[NewShillingCollector 0]

Although NGC said they stand behind their conclusion, they would re-examine the same coin. We are considering doing that. If we sent it to CGS, and they conclude a 50/46 as NGC did, we are basically in the same situation with Spink stating it is a 50/49. Spink removed the 50/46 from their most current data. Finally, it would be nice to see some actual sales data on both dates rather than an editors random assigned value. With an R4 rating, the date(s) should be valued higher than the 1850.

[azda 979]

The 50/49 is regarded rarer in spink but looking at previous auction results the 50/49 has Seen a few more than an 1850. The one i uploaded to your thread was one i owned and sold this year.

I'm Not sure what yours is graded at i don't recall it being mentioned, but being in an American slab can have its downsides, ie, their grading is slacker than ours plus it has 50/46 which could make People sceptical....Its difficult to call, but i'd personally Take it Out of the slab and if you decided to sell, sell as the 50/49 variety but kerp the Ticket and maybe write a note to the buyer with an explaination of the ticket.

My 1850 was NVF and sold for £1800

No, that's not fair. It's not 'slacker', it's just different. In other words their EF is lower than ours, but is consistently lower, same with AUNC, and so on. Their grading is as consistent as ours (should be), but their grades don't exactly match ours. Just saying..

And the XF45 in the eBay Laughs section which is clearly VF? I'll stick to My opinion that their grading is slacker than ours

Edited August 26, 2012 by azda

[azda 979]

Although NGC said they stand behind their conclusion, they would re-examine the same coin. We are considering doing that. If we sent it to CGS, and they conclude a 50/46 as NGC did, we are basically in the same situation with Spink stating it is a 50/49. Spink removed the 50/46 from their most current data. Finally, it would be nice to see some actual sales data on both dates rather than an editors random assigned value. With an R4 rating, the date(s) should be valued higher than the 1850.

The overdates are not bringing anymore than an 1850 would. Check london Coins past sales results for both dates along with DNW or any other British auction House

[NewShillingCollector 0]

Although NGC said they stand behind their conclusion, they would re-examine the same coin. We are considering doing that. If we sent it to CGS, and they conclude a 50/46 as NGC did, we are basically in the same situation with Spink stating it is a 50/49. Spink removed the 50/46 from their most current data. Finally, it would be nice to see some actual sales data on both dates rather than an editors random assigned value. With an R4 rating, the date(s) should be valued higher than the 1850.

The overdates are not bringing anymore than an 1850 would. Check london Coins past sales results for both dates along with DNW or any other British auction House

The last time we checked extensively for any sales for either overdate date was back around April. At that time we did find one from London Coins that realized a final price quite high, considering it to be possibly cleaned, toned, and the last digit undetermined. Actually the final price was 3,800 pounds or about USD, $6,000 (today's conversion), and that was a bit over six years ago in 2006. Here is a copy and paste of the info we saved from our search:

Shilling 1850 ESC 1297 50 over 49 or 46 (R4). The 5 clearly struck over a 4 though the underlying figure below the 0 is unclear approaching EF perhaps once cleaned and retoned nevertheless extremely rare and especially so in this high grade Ex-Andrew Wayne collection London Coins Auction A113 June 2006 Lot 1284 More like this £3,800

Needless to say, we were happy to see that auction a good amount of years ago when we had just received our graded 50/46 back.

[azda 979]

Both cutout Dates were from London auctions, so that would be 2, both were EF so much higher graded than yours hence the £3800 figure also they. Stated POSSIBlY once cleaned. Another thing going for that One is provenance.

In 2010 there was also VG/F sold for £650 and also a Fine in 2005 for £550 so that makes 4.

I'm noting that you seem to want to push the coins value, a collector will only pay what its worth to them for Grade and type, the Londons coin was EF, hence the price of £3800, yours in VF so would'nt get near those prices but might make bottom end of 4 figures depending how the whole coin looks.

American slabs that pass through London coins are sometimes diwngraded by Londons than what is on the slab, so also bear that in mind, i don't think i've seen the whole coin OBV/REV yet and whether its a VF UK grade or a lower American grade

Edited August 26, 2012 by azda

[VickySilver 830]

I have seen aVF sell for about 600 pounds in the USA and bought one some cpl years ago at that price myself.

[Rob 3,152]

Tricky one here. The long tail on the 4 punch used on the 1846 probably got damaged as there is a trace of the serif on my former 1849. Unfortunately the void in the (5)0 is narrow, which is similar to the width of the void of the 9 on my 1849 whereas the 1846 appears to be a different font style and has a wider loop.

As the last two digits were added later to the die by hand, you can't rely on the positions of these two numbers to make an appraisal. The 5 in the 1850 is wide enough to just about cover the 4 and you have to bear in mind that the 4 will have been filled prior to entering the 5, so there need not be any trace of the tail if this was done well. Just because the bottom of the 4 is clear, it doesn't follow that the rest has to be. It is possible that a defective 0 was punched in giving the messy top of the 0. On balance I would be tempted to say 1850/49, but better clarity is required. 1846 was the year prior to 1849 that there was a significant output of shillings, so any left over dies are likely to be either date. 1845 also saw a large shilling output - again, this can't be excluded because the side of the 0 has a straight line from 9-11 o'clock as well as 9-7 o'clock. The middle crossbar of either a 6 or 9 would be good if you could identify it as the curve ought to be either a hump in the case of a 6, or a dip or straight line for a 9. Having said all that, the undulating surface seen on the 0 could easily be an underlying 8 as an alternative. There can also be no cast iron assumption the underlying character is a number. A wrong punch can be anything.

1850 shillings come up rarely, so any prices are likely to be a reflection of a single sale result. Don't worry about whether 50/46 is more or less valuable than 50/49 or even a plain boring old 50. Most collectors will bite your hand off for any of them.

Short answer is I don't know, and getting enough examples for research is problematic for anyone.

[VickySilver 830]

The vast majority of extant pieces are in the fair to VF range and get considerably more expensive above that as was stated. I'm going to hold on the figure I quoted, obviously it's appearance "in hand" is tantamount.

[NewShillingCollector 0]

Both cutout Dates were from London auctions, so that would be 2, both were EF so much higher graded than yours hence the £3800 figure also they. Stated POSSIBlY once cleaned. Another thing going for that One is provenance.

In 2010 there was also VG/F sold for £650 and also a Fine in 2005 for £550 so that makes 4.

I'm noting that you seem to want to push the coins value, a collector will only pay what its worth to them for Grade and type, the Londons coin was EF, hence the price of £3800, yours in VF so would'nt get near those prices but might make bottom end of 4 figures depending how the whole coin looks.

American slabs that pass through London coins are sometimes diwngraded by Londons than what is on the slab, so also bear that in mind, i don't think i've seen the whole coin OBV/REV yet and whether its a VF UK grade or a lower American grade

Yes,we are interested in the coins value. The was the first G. Britain/UK coin that we have actually owned. We have collected US coins for decades and was just a bit confused as to why a coin listed in one of ESC/Seaby catalog as an R4 with about 11-20 examples known to exist was valued at basically the same price as an 1850, an R3 "extremly rare". NGC referred us to Krause (Standard Catalog of World Coins) who told us they recently removed 50/46 and replaced it with 50/49 and then it all began!

We went back through our communications and found the one from Spink that they sent us after the examined the coin. We sent it to London for them to examine.

As follows:

They (Spink) thanked us for sending the coin to them that they were now able to examine. He stated that there no doubt in his mind that this is 1850/49 not 46. He said that he examined it under high magnification and the numeral under the 0 has a shadow between 270 and 90 degrees as well as a downward curve angled curve within the 0. And that this all supports this being the 1850-49 variety. He said that was possible in the past that some have been judged to be 1850/46 as it is not easy to see without good light and high magnification. Rather than the more obvious 1850/50 which amended a die used at the end of the previous year. He said it is still a very rare coin and he would grade this in UK terms as nearly very fine as the obverse is quite worn.

We may return to NGC with Spink's results to see if they concur.

[azda 979]

You'd be better sending it to CGS, but your coin and good luck whatever you do with it

[Rob 3,152]

Both cutout Dates were from London auctions, so that would be 2, both were EF so much higher graded than yours hence the £3800 figure also they. Stated POSSIBlY once cleaned. Another thing going for that One is provenance.

In 2010 there was also VG/F sold for £650 and also a Fine in 2005 for £550 so that makes 4.

I'm noting that you seem to want to push the coins value, a collector will only pay what its worth to them for Grade and type, the Londons coin was EF, hence the price of £3800, yours in VF so would'nt get near those prices but might make bottom end of 4 figures depending how the whole coin looks.

American slabs that pass through London coins are sometimes diwngraded by Londons than what is on the slab, so also bear that in mind, i don't think i've seen the whole coin OBV/REV yet and whether its a VF UK grade or a lower American grade

Yes,we are interested in the coins value. The was the first G. Britain/UK coin that we have actually owned. We have collected US coins for decades and was just a bit confused as to why a coin listed in one of ESC/Seaby catalog as an R4 with about 11-20 examples known to exist was valued at basically the same price as an 1850, an R3 "extremly rare". NGC referred us to Krause (Standard Catalog of World Coins) who told us they recently removed 50/46 and replaced it with 50/49 and then it all began!

We went back through our communications and found the one from Spink that they sent us after the examined the coin. We sent it to London for them to examine.

As follows:

They (Spink) thanked us for sending the coin to them that they were now able to examine. He stated that there no doubt in his mind that this is 1850/49 not 46. He said that he examined it under high magnification and the numeral under the 0 has a shadow between 270 and 90 degrees as well as a downward curve angled curve within the 0. And that this all supports this being the 1850-49 variety. He said that was possible in the past that some have been judged to be 1850/46 as it is not easy to see without good light and high magnification. Rather than the more obvious 1850/50 which amended a die used at the end of the previous year. He said it is still a very rare coin and he would grade this in UK terms as nearly very fine as the obverse is quite worn.

We may return to NGC with Spink's results to see if they concur.

The R3/R4 etc rarities are to be taken with a pinch of salt in the case of currency items. The rarities were set down when the internet didn't exist and as a result there was relatively little access to collections compared to today. Most of the currency rarities in ESC need to be revised downwards as there are examples where Rayner states 1 or 2 known where the population is into double figures. Conversely, a few supposedly relatively common coins with a rating of R-R3 are virtually undocumented in sales and not found even when hoovering up many bulk lots of a number of years - all of which suggests the rating is too slack or whether it exists at all. A rare coin is always going to be a rare coin irrespective of the R number. Collectors know which coins are rare because they nearly all need one! In that grade it doesn't really matter whether it is slabbed or not because those collectors who chase the high numbers on slabs for registry sets would mostly not be interested. Therefore, what NGC think won't matter. It will find a buyer whatever.

[Coinery 1,152]

I'm sure it's a back-handed compliment that further confirmation has been sought here, AFTER an in-hand validation by Spink!

[TomGoodheart 400]

To be honest, it sounds as if NGC's views are irrelevant. Certainly here in the UK I imagine few are going to be interested in the slab grade, they will make up their own minds. The same is likely true for CGS's opinion, grade wise at least. Slabbed coins are still a small part of the market here and I believe for most collectors make little difference, .. unless you want to unslab ...

What would be of interest, to me at least, would be the letter from Spink advising you that the coin is 50/49! Their expertise is far more trustworthy than NGCs when it comes to British coins IMHO.

Any major auction house here will have US representation and can advise you of the best way to market such a coin and where to sell it (although with the internet any sale is potentially international).

Personally I'd prefer such a coin unslabbed. The photos you posted of the date earlier show the problems of trying to see fine detail through a sheet of plastic, but I know Americans are keener on the things than we are, so that's up to you I guess. I'd not bother with re-slabbing or chasing a different date label. I'd just pick a UK auction house, give them a copy of Spink's letter and go for it to be honest.

[Coinery 1,152]

Precisely!

[NewShillingCollector 0]

I'm sure it's a back-handed compliment that further confirmation has been sought here, AFTER an in-hand validation by Spink!

A back-handed compliment is a compliment diguised as an insult!!!

Us trying to insult people on the forum???

Absolutely not!!!

It was recommended to us that we post the information and the pictures on this forum. We are not "posters" and did not even know the forum existed until a few days prior to our posting here.

[TomGoodheart 400]

I'm sure it's a back-handed compliment that further confirmation has been sought here, AFTER an in-hand validation by Spink!

A back-handed compliment is a compliment diguised as an insult!!!

Us trying to insult people on the forum???

Absolutely not!!!

It was recommended to us that we post the information and the pictures on this forum. We are not "posters" and did not even know the forum existed until a few days prior to our posting here.

I think Stuart was saying it's kinda flattering to be asked for our views, when you already knew what Spink thought!

[Coinery 1,152]

I'm sure it's a back-handed compliment that further confirmation has been sought here, AFTER an in-hand validation by Spink!

A back-handed compliment is a compliment diguised as an insult!!!

Us trying to insult people on the forum???

Absolutely not!!!

It was recommended to us that we post the information and the pictures on this forum. We are not "posters" and did not even know the forum existed until a few days prior to our posting here.

I have responded to your PM!