1936 penny short vs long denticle

[numidan 0]

Here is an animated gif that cycles between short and long denticle 1936 penny. I did not post it under unlisted variety because it is a close call! Maybe due to die wear? What do you think?

[Coinery 1,148]

Here is an animated gif that cycles between short and long denticle 1936 penny. I did not post it under unlisted variety because it is a close call! Maybe due to die wear? What do you think?

Great stuff, that software would be excellent for issues like the positioning of the 4 in a recent post, what's it called?

Back to thread...the denticles look unchanged to me, the rim gets thinner however! I think it's rim wear! IMO

Changed my mind, see below!

Edited August 21, 2012 by Coinery

[Coinery 1,148]

Here is an animated gif that cycles between short and long denticle 1936 penny. I did not post it under unlisted variety because it is a close call! Maybe due to die wear? What do you think?

Great stuff, that software would be excellent for issues like the positioning of the 4 in a recent post, what's it called?

Back to thread...the denticles look unchanged to me, the rim gets thinner however! I think it's rim wear! IMO

NO! It IS the denticles! The relative position of the 'Y' and the inner rim doesn't change! Good spot!

[Peckris 579]

Brilliant idea, that animation! If I had one criticism, it cycles too fast between them, so you can't study each state closely before it changes. But, it certainly looks as if the teeth and rim are different between those two. I used to have quite a sample of 1936 pennies, but alas I'm now down to only about 3. It would be really interesting IF (a big if) one of those two was much rarer than the other. Bear in mind, 1936 had the record penny mintage before the 1960s, by a long long way.

Good spot.

[numidan 0]

what's it called?

Saved gif images using Paint.NET by reducing top layer's transparency and combined these images using unFREEz.

the rim gets thinner however! I think it's rim wear! IMO

I do agree with you for the rim.

If I had one criticism, it cycles too fast between them, so you can't study each state closely before it changes.

Thank you, if I create other animations, I will increase the delay.

This is the first time I present differences in coins using gif animation. It was easier to see how the denticles approaches the land near Britannia's foot. There are other small differences between them, but I am waiting to see if other members are able to find the long denticle.

In my case, I only have one long denticle 1936 penny out of 17 coins.

[Accumulator 52]

what's it called?

Saved gif images using Paint.NET by reducing top layer's transparency and combined these images using unFREEz.

the rim gets thinner however! I think it's rim wear! IMO

I do agree with you for the rim.

If I had one criticism, it cycles too fast between them, so you can't study each state closely before it changes.

Thank you, if I create other animations, I will increase the delay.

This is the first time I present differences in coins using gif animation. It was easier to see how the denticles approaches the land near Britannia's foot. There are other small differences between them, but I am waiting to see if other members are able to find the long denticle.

In my case, I only have one long denticle 1936 penny out of 17 coins.

Very impressive indeed! It looks certain that the two coins display different length denticles and also a difference in the wave below Britannia's foot. That's yet another year for which I need to look through my old pennies - and for 1936 it's likely to be lots! Unfortunately, with holidays etc. it may be some time before I can do this.

Another excellent candidate for your animation would be 1905. Dies B & C are subtly different, with the position of the 'E' in penny being the main change.

[Coinery 1,148]

I personally thought the fast cycling was useful as an aid to spotting the differences in a more dramatic way. Though I also agree with Peckris, that a slower cycle would then be beneficial for a closer look! So maybe one of each would be the very best kind of presentation for these things?

A second big welcome to the forum, Numidan, some interesting new approaches to looking at things, superb!

[AardHawk 73]

Numidan, any chance that you could post separate images of these coins, as I find the animation makes it very difficult discerning the differences. Thanks.

[numidan 0]

Numidan, any chance that you could post separate images of these coins, as I find the animation makes it very difficult discerning the differences. Thanks.

Sorry AardHawk for the late response. Here are images of a different section of the coin, hope this is okay with you.

[Peckris 579]

Numidan, any chance that you could post separate images of these coins, as I find the animation makes it very difficult discerning the differences. Thanks.

Sorry AardHawk for the late response. Here are images of a different section of the coin, hope this is okay with you.

Interesting - not only are the teeth clearly longer, the rim is observably wider too. Put those together and the two types should be fairly easy to tell apart?

[Accumulator 52]

Numidan, any chance that you could post separate images of these coins, as I find the animation makes it very difficult discerning the differences. Thanks.

Sorry AardHawk for the late response. Here are images of a different section of the coin, hope this is okay with you.

Interesting - not only are the teeth clearly longer, the rim is observably wider too. Put those together and the two types should be fairly easy to tell apart?

Having taken another look at a couple of coins, I'm not so sure. It would appear that strikes are often a few microns off-centre (barely visible even with a magnifying glass). The result is that the rim on one edge is slightly narrower and the teeth are slightly longer (presumably taking up the excess metal) while diametrically opposite the rim is wider and the teeth shorter. See what you think? These images are from the reverse of the same 1936 penny:

Having just posted the above I realise the effect you have found is entirely the opposite. The wide rim on your penny demonstrates the long teeth. Never mind. Food for thought anyway!

Edited September 6, 2012 by Accumulator

[numidan 0]

Having taken another look at a couple of coins, I'm not so sure. It would appear that strikes are often a few microns off-centre (barely visible even with a magnifying glass). The result is that the rim on one edge is slightly narrower and the teeth are slightly longer (presumably taking up the excess metal) while diametrically opposite the rim is wider and the teeth shorter. See what you think? These images are from the reverse of the same 1936 penny:

In fact, not only does it depend on the blank being off-center but also a loss of piston pressure on the press. Here is an illustration that I presented on a French forum to help understand why on some coins, there maybe longer teeth.

The first picture shows the chamber. I've exaggerated the curvature of the working dies to understand the flow of metal of the blank.

The second image is to help understand that the process is similar to rolling pie dough, metal flowing to the extremities. It helps that the working dies are convex.

The third image shows the contact points between the blank's rim and edge of working dies where the teeth are located.

The fourth image is a magnification of the contact point between the working die and the blank’s rim. If there is a loss of pressure, metal flow will not be complete and the teeth will be longer and deeper in the blank's rim.

Hope this helps

[AardHawk 73]

Numidan, thanks for the new pictures.

I have studied my 1936 penny collection of two dozen coins and I am convinced that all of mine have prongs two and three close up to the boarder teeth, but I also think that they have short teeth and a narrow rim!

Looking for some of these varieties is a bit like finding canals on Mars.

[Peckris 579]

Numidan, thanks for the new pictures.

I have studied my 1936 penny collection of two dozen coins and I am convinced that all of mine have prongs two and three close up to the boarder teeth, but I also think that they have short teeth and a narrow rim!

Looking for some of these varieties is a bit like finding canals on Mars.

A Mars a day turns your denticles into dentures

[numismatist 2]

I've got two 1936 Pennies to hand..Assume both are the "long" type ?