CROWNS

[divemaster 11]

That it is going to become more widely used.

[azda 979]

That it is going to become more widely used.

By whom? Its not exactly a huge practise in the UK and as we know the americans do it to have the BEST EVER Grade and sell it at 10x its value

[Peckris 579]

I guess that I also am on the fence as slabbing has many benefits, and the act itself is reversible whereas the hamfisted dealer or collector that plants his index finger squarely in the middle or even edge on a copper coin with lustre has committed an irreversible act with permanent consequences. And I have the coins to show it (not MY prints however).

Also, there IS a guarantee by the big slabbers such as NGC or PCGS to back the encapsulated coin as authentic. If it can be proved otherwise they will replace, as is my understanding, at full market value.

In point of fact, it is the future of higher valued milled coins IMO, the dinosaurs that don't see it coming may need to visit a show such as the ANA to see just that. Lest you thing it is America only, take a look at the burgeoning Chinese market as well. Old fashioned collectors with cabinets and trays of wood would absolutely spin!

The other thing I do not understand is the curmudgeonly appproach or commentaries on slabs - if it is not for an individual, so be it. Why criticize others? I guess those with premium carts and buggies did not look on the advent of the automobile favourably either...

It's certainly a point of view, but not one I agree with myself, for the following reasons :

• You can't view the coin (carefully, wearing gloves) in the best light, or go in close with magnifier to look for varieties
  
• You can't photograph the coins properly
  
• Storage is an absolute b*gger
  

Call me old-fashioned, but I can't see the attraction of slabs. People said CD-haters were clinging to vinyl in vain, but look what happened, vinyl refused to die.

[Nick 329]

I guess that I also am on the fence as slabbing has many benefits, and the act itself is reversible whereas the hamfisted dealer or collector that plants his index finger squarely in the middle or even edge on a copper coin with lustre has committed an irreversible act with permanent consequences. And I have the coins to show it (not MY prints however).

Also, there IS a guarantee by the big slabbers such as NGC or PCGS to back the encapsulated coin as authentic. If it can be proved otherwise they will replace, as is my understanding, at full market value.

In point of fact, it is the future of higher valued milled coins IMO, the dinosaurs that don't see it coming may need to visit a show such as the ANA to see just that. Lest you thing it is America only, take a look at the burgeoning Chinese market as well. Old fashioned collectors with cabinets and trays of wood would absolutely spin!

The other thing I do not understand is the curmudgeonly appproach or commentaries on slabs - if it is not for an individual, so be it. Why criticize others? I guess those with premium carts and buggies did not look on the advent of the automobile favourably either...

Proving something is not authentic is almost as diffficult as proving it is genuine, so the TPGs are not really staking much with that guarentee. Let's face it - you wouldn't have bought the coin in the first place if you thought it was fake!

[Coinery 1,147]

I guess that I also am on the fence as slabbing has many benefits, and the act itself is reversible whereas the hamfisted dealer or collector that plants his index finger squarely in the middle or even edge on a copper coin with lustre has committed an irreversible act with permanent consequences. And I have the coins to show it (not MY prints however).

Also, there IS a guarantee by the big slabbers such as NGC or PCGS to back the encapsulated coin as authentic. If it can be proved otherwise they will replace, as is my understanding, at full market value.

In point of fact, it is the future of higher valued milled coins IMO, the dinosaurs that don't see it coming may need to visit a show such as the ANA to see just that. Lest you thing it is America only, take a look at the burgeoning Chinese market as well. Old fashioned collectors with cabinets and trays of wood would absolutely spin!

The other thing I do not understand is the curmudgeonly appproach or commentaries on slabs - if it is not for an individual, so be it. Why criticize others? I guess those with premium carts and buggies did not look on the advent of the automobile favourably either...

Proving something is not authentic is almost as diffficult as proving it is genuine, so the TPGs are not really staking much with that guarentee. Let's face it - you wouldn't have bought the coin in the first place if you thought it was fake!

Excellent point! I never EVER managed to convince the owner of the Mary groat that it was not genuine! Every fact I offered, he countered...only Spink's top man, or Tony Robinson live on TV, would have convinced him otherwise!

[VickySilver 830]

A few points:

Quite frankly, I have found them (TPGs) most amenable with regards to alteration of opinion as long as adequate documentation was provided, so I believe that is not a valid criticism.

I do think they make mistakes, generally less with the later milled that are more my interest.

I do not always agree with the grading, but they seem to have some consistency.

I have seen quite decent pictures taken through the pespex of the plastic slabs.

I have found it quite easy to make out detail, even of edges in the newer holders.

Quite frankly, in numbers, it appears that the majority of Western collectors are starting to accept these slabs so the "who is using" or "who likes them" discussions seem a bit silly.

We see Spink, or Baldwin, or St. James KEEPING these coins in slabs.

The argument against mishandling (ie dropping or touching) has still not been refuted;

and, how many people really utilise gloves when handling their copper?

I am trying to figure out where any of the proponents of slabs are telling anyone else what to do? Not seen, so maybe paranoia?

In fact a major driver of the market are slabbed coins, so that was a misplaced assertion. As one example, please tell me if the majority of 1927 matte proofs are slabbed, or "raw"?

Also, if these are starting to dominate in numbers (and by the way, check the upcoming Heritage NYINC Sale this January), how can other statements be made?

I would argue that larger and larger percentages of top coins in the British market are being slabbed, like it or not.

I think the storage issue is a difficult one, and also feel they take a lot of space.

[azda 979]

THe majority of Western collectors are using them? Do you have figures Vicky against raw coins? I'd be interested to see where and how you come to this conclusion.

Please elaborate more and provide us with the figures.

My guess is that TPGs are being used for different reasons other than grade, its basically people using the grades on the slabs to sell said slabs for 10 fold their worth because it says MS70., a slab doea'nt need to tell me

That its a nice coin, i buy it because its a nice coin and don't pay a premium of 10 fold because a slab has MS on it. this is Nothing to do with owning the coin, its about cash my friend. So back to you slab V Raw figures, i'll await those with baited breath.

Edited November 25, 2012 by azda

[azda 979]

Case in point about photography of slabs

http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7498

[VickySilver 830]

Azda, go on over to the US for the next ANA Convention, and you will see exactly what I am talking about, and it is not just US coins. Not calling those who denigrate slabs these, but Do Do birds were once common, and became less so. LOL!

And also, I just gave you and example of the 1927 matte proof coins. Or the 1937 matte proof coins - pray tell if you know (and I do) whether the vast majority are slabbed or not?

Or maybe you should check out the Terner sale and tell me of where you have seen more unslabbed quality gold coins, at least in one private collection.

Quite frankly, the unslabbed coins are becoming more scarce, even in the British series even though there are substantial numbers still out there.

And you can quite naturally provide your own figures as I have given a few places to start. As long as you don't mind coming to sit my three year old

I'll be glad to do your legwork on research. PCGS just slabbed its 25 MILLIONTH coin.

[Peckris 579]

Azda, go on over to the US for the next ANA Convention, and you will see exactly what I am talking about, and it is not just US coins. Not calling those who denigrate slabs these, but Do Do birds were once common, and became less so. LOL!

And also, I just gave you and example of the 1927 matte proof coins. Or the 1937 matte proof coins - pray tell if you know (and I do) whether the vast majority are slabbed or not?

Or maybe you should check out the Terner sale and tell me of where you have seen more unslabbed quality gold coins, at least in one private collection.

Quite frankly, the unslabbed coins are becoming more scarce, even in the British series even though there are substantial numbers still out there.

And you can quite naturally provide your own figures as I have given a few places to start. As long as you don't mind coming to sit my three year old

I'll be glad to do your legwork on research. PCGS just slabbed its 25 MILLIONTH coin.

I've not seen ANY 1927 or 1937 proofs in slabs.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1311&_nkw=1927+proof+set&_sacat=0&_from=R40

Not a slab in sight!

[Nick 329]

Azda, go on over to the US for the next ANA Convention, and you will see exactly what I am talking about, and it is not just US coins. Not calling those who denigrate slabs these, but Do Do birds were once common, and became less so. LOL!

And also, I just gave you and example of the 1927 matte proof coins. Or the 1937 matte proof coins - pray tell if you know (and I do) whether the vast majority are slabbed or not?

Or maybe you should check out the Terner sale and tell me of where you have seen more unslabbed quality gold coins, at least in one private collection.

Quite frankly, the unslabbed coins are becoming more scarce, even in the British series even though there are substantial numbers still out there.

And you can quite naturally provide your own figures as I have given a few places to start. As long as you don't mind coming to sit my three year old

I'll be glad to do your legwork on research. PCGS just slabbed its 25 MILLIONTH coin.

I'm sure that most matt proof coins are slabbed - but that is only to provide some legitimacy to the matt proof attribution. PCGS may well have slabbed 25 million coins, but how many are still slabbed?

[azda 979]

Shhhhh yes PCGS are slabbing all These new Coins from the American mint, any particular reason for that other than the slab to say MS70?

Then there's the slabs that the owner was'nt happy about the grade, then cracked Open and Sent elsewhere for another try. Its all about a number on a slab and dollars for the owner as i keep saying, its not about actually owning the coin.

[ski 1]

The only wet feet will be from most of us P****g ourselves laughing at your perceived market trend.

As a full-time dealer I am not exactly inundated with requests for slabbed coins from my customers (I am sure that Chris, Rob, Bob and Derek will bear me out on this). I buy them and sell them but only if the price for the coin under the slab is right. Any CGS or US slabbed coins bought for the collection are cracked straight out and nestle snuggly in my mahogany coin cabinets which are much more attractive storage vessels (as Peck has already stated).

If you think the market will be driven by slabbed coins you are either of the below options;

1) Bill Pugsley

2) Steve Lockett

3) Living in the States

4) Living on Mars

Good luck with your chosen area but please don't try to tell people on here how to suck eggs!

this wins my post of the year award....

so where does this leave slabbing and more importantly the op.....well ive about 14 slabs as against around 600 raw coins. the most significant error i have is an ngc slabbed d/florin arabic1 that is in fact a roman 1....(cheers chris).

The OP came on here seeking advice and then suddenly knew everything there was to know about this range of coins. im suspicious....but i believe slabbing serves a purpose..it helps them in the short term, investors to make a purchase in a field they know absolutely nothing about, because in this instance its originality is guaranteed ( ). its laid on a plate for them, grade and authenticity, and its over hyped valuations. CGS values most lizzie tanners worth a pound or two in unc at anywhere between £20 and £50.....WOW

to anyone who owns a very nice piece, they can protect that piece without resorting to a plastic casing.

is slabbing the future of coin collecting, i dont think it is, the raw coin market will provide an outlet for those who know and appreciate coin grades and values, slabbing on the other hand may well serve those such as the OP who initially couldnt tell the difference between certain coins and then suddenly can!!!!! and whose interest is not so much in coin collecting but as his posts suggest in quick investmemnts.

ski

[Coinery 1,147]

I'm definitely on the fence when it comes to slabs! I've got around a dozen, and have only broke out about 4 ever.

I like handling coins, and preparing my OWN tickets for them, with information I want on them, and could never imagine slabbing hammered silver or gold.

However, that all said, I do hate the vulnerability of a mint-lustred valuable copper and, to all intents and purposes, would end up locking it away for its own protection anyway. So I do sometimes wonder about the freedom gained from ham-fistedly grabbing your favourite mint coppers for a good look on a regular basis!

Another negative for the slabbers, and something that always plays on my mind, is how long will that magnificent lustre hold out in the slab? Were the experts as considerate with their handling as they might have been? How many people properly degrease their coins before sending them for slabbing? I always wonder about how many acidic fingerprints are locked away with a slabbed coin?

If the greater argument is about protecting/handling the coins, then you could always buy empty slab cases? A quick search finds them in the US at around $2 a throw!

Strangely, I can enjoy aspects of both slabbed AND raw coins, guess I'm just weird!

[Paulus 1,975]

Being lazy I guess, but does anyone know how much it costs to have say 10 coins worth £100-£200 each slabbed by a TPG? Do any of them offer a low cost option for bulk lower value coins? Sometimes I see coins listed for sale where I wonder whether it would cost more to have them slabbed that the value of the coin! I have only ever sent one coin to be slabbed and that was to have it authenticated, it was rejected as anticipated and money well spent as they (CGS) gave reasons and I was refunded by the seller as a result.

If I needed to sell my collection in a financial crisis I would seriously consider getting a dozen or so of my higher grade higher value coins slabbed for sale to the American market, it would just make financial sense I think.

[VickySilver 830]

Actually Azda, ALL of the 1927 and 1937 mattes are slabbed, and I used them as an example.

I would not bother to slab a coin worth less than 300 pounds or so.

Pictures ARE READILY taken through the Perspex , if you doubt this please check the Heritage archives.

Here's another - check the Cheshire Collection coins (and I could name many many more). Let's see, we're they slabbed? Why yes they were.

Point is slabbing is much more prevalent than many seem to believe.

All good? Certainly not. Benefits? IMO yes.

[azda 979]

Quite frankly, in numbers, it appears that the majority of Western collectors are starting to accept these slabs so the "who is using" or "who likes them" discussions seem a bit silly.

Your quote Vicky, you only gave 1 half of the arguement which was for the PCGS 25 millionth slabbed coin, i asked you to give the Slabbed Vs Raw ratio because as stated above you seem to have the figures for the WESTERN World.

You said "it appears", so in my estimation, it appears you don't have those exact figures to hand, which would mean your statement is in fact bollocks????????? So this in fact would'nt make my statement of who likes them wrong, it just means there are 25 million PCGS slabs out there, but how many still intact. As i mentioned previously, i bought a slabbed coin for my collection and cracked it out the same day. So 1 less PCGS slab, how many more like me? You'll have those figures to?

When you provide the slab v raw figures i'll then eat humble pie if slabs are winning, but it still won't make me go out and buy one if i don't like/want the coin at 10x the price of a raw coin

Edited November 26, 2012 by azda

[DaveG38 405]

Azda, go on over to the US for the next ANA Convention, and you will see exactly what I am talking about, and it is not just US coins. Not calling those who denigrate slabs these, but Do Do birds were once common, and became less so. LOL!

And also, I just gave you and example of the 1927 matte proof coins. Or the 1937 matte proof coins - pray tell if you know (and I do) whether the vast majority are slabbed or not?

Or maybe you should check out the Terner sale and tell me of where you have seen more unslabbed quality gold coins, at least in one private collection.

Quite frankly, the unslabbed coins are becoming more scarce, even in the British series even though there are substantial numbers still out there.

And you can quite naturally provide your own figures as I have given a few places to start. As long as you don't mind coming to sit my three year old

I'll be glad to do your legwork on research. PCGS just slabbed its 25 MILLIONTH coin.

I've not seen ANY 1927 or 1937 proofs in slabs.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1311&_nkw=1927+proof+set&_sacat=0&_from=R40

Not a slab in sight!

I'd like to see them slab a 1927 proof set case!

Edited November 26, 2012 by DaveG38

[Peckris 579]

Azda, go on over to the US for the next ANA Convention, and you will see exactly what I am talking about, and it is not just US coins. Not calling those who denigrate slabs these, but Do Do birds were once common, and became less so. LOL!

And also, I just gave you and example of the 1927 matte proof coins. Or the 1937 matte proof coins - pray tell if you know (and I do) whether the vast majority are slabbed or not?

Or maybe you should check out the Terner sale and tell me of where you have seen more unslabbed quality gold coins, at least in one private collection.

Quite frankly, the unslabbed coins are becoming more scarce, even in the British series even though there are substantial numbers still out there.

And you can quite naturally provide your own figures as I have given a few places to start. As long as you don't mind coming to sit my three year old

I'll be glad to do your legwork on research. PCGS just slabbed its 25 MILLIONTH coin.

I've not seen ANY 1927 or 1937 proofs in slabs.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1311&_nkw=1927+proof+set&_sacat=0&_from=R40

Not a slab in sight!

I'd like to see them slab a 1927 proof set case!

Quite! And you'd have to split the set up to slab the individual coins.

Unless Vicky was talking specifically about the VIP versions of the 1927 and 1937 proofs? In which case, they are so rare that they hardly form a representative sample. (Searching London Coins for 1927 matte proofs doesn't bring up a single example).

Edited November 26, 2012 by Peckris

[ski 1]

Being lazy I guess, but does anyone know how much it costs to have say 10 coins worth £100-£200 each slabbed by a TPG

For CGS it would be £119.90 plus £15 P+P for 10 coins....(taken from their website, no mention of reductions for bulk.)

ski

[Paulus 1,975]

Being lazy I guess, but does anyone know how much it costs to have say 10 coins worth £100-£200 each slabbed by a TPG

For CGS it would be £119.90 plus £15 P+P for 10 coins....(taken from their website, no mention of reductions for bulk.)

ski

Thanks Ski

[VickySilver 830]

No actually Azda, you are rather the cretin, and have NOT responded to my examples and tried to reword what I have said. I have said that slabs are becoming more and more dominant within the marketplace and are a force to be reckoned with. True it is, and bray if you like...

As far as ridiculous arguments by you that have been gunned down regard the ability to take pictures through slabs and that somehow slabs will go away or that there are numerous labelling or attribution errors, remain just that., ridiculous arguments. 25 million coins have been slabbed by them, possibly nearly that many by NGC. Before you open your trap again, maybe you should look at the PCGS British coin census. Or maybe do something on your own for a change.

I am not going to count how many coins are in slabs, nor was that my point so evidently you are stuck without significant arguments. Please bring something useful and interesting to the table besides the "bollocks" label.

The matte specimens are individually slabbed by both the two listed companies, and I have seen all save one set of 1927s. I also might ask you to find unslabbed 1922 specimen pennies, unslabbed gold 1922 florins, unslabbed 1924 specimen proof sets, and same for the 1930 proof VIP half crown. Actually the examples are so numerous that I will leave it up to you and your "bollocks" arse to check it out for yourself since I have cited the examples.

[azda 979]

Hmmmm, i never mentioned Matte slabs, nor did i mention the pictures. I did however Point to a thread about problematic picture taking that PECK mentioned. Maybe you should read a little Vicky then come back with something constructive other than abusive.

You were the one that also mentioned the Western World is using slabs not me, so you are the one that needs to prove YOUR theory and not me, i'm could'nt give a toss how

Many PCGS/ANA have slabbed, i still would'nt buy one to own. Now grow up, prove your theory that slabs are more Common than RAW and if you can't then try and take a chill pill and rest you fingers for a while

[Peckris 579]

No actually Azda, you are rather the cretin, and have NOT responded to my examples and tried to reword what I have said. I have said that slabs are becoming more and more dominant within the marketplace and are a force to be reckoned with. True it is, and bray if you like...

As far as ridiculous arguments by you that have been gunned down regard the ability to take pictures through slabs and that somehow slabs will go away or that there are numerous labelling or attribution errors, remain just that., ridiculous arguments. 25 million coins have been slabbed by them, possibly nearly that many by NGC. Before you open your trap again, maybe you should look at the PCGS British coin census. Or maybe do something on your own for a change.

I am not going to count how many coins are in slabs, nor was that my point so evidently you are stuck without significant arguments. Please bring something useful and interesting to the table besides the "bollocks" label.

The matte specimens are individually slabbed by both the two listed companies, and I have seen all save one set of 1927s. I also might ask you to find unslabbed 1922 specimen pennies, unslabbed gold 1922 florins, unslabbed 1924 specimen proof sets, and same for the 1930 proof VIP half crown. Actually the examples are so numerous that I will leave it up to you and your "bollocks" arse to check it out for yourself since I have cited the examples.

I don't want to get involved in what's becoming (for this forum, anyway) such a heated argument. I'd only point out in Dave's defence that if you were to poll the members of this forum (yes, we're self-selected, and ageing farts, but probably represent a good cross-section of serious collectors) you'd get a sizeable majority against slabs. Also, your examples are all of extremely rare proofs etc, and that's possibly not the most representative group of coins? After all, many owners of such might prefer to see them attributed and protected, especially as they are coins for which slabbing wouldn't particularly 'add value' being already rare and valuable. On that level I have a 'live and let live' attitude to slabbing, though I personally wouldn't entertain them. It's where perfectly common coins are slabbed and then valued many times their book value as a result - that's where slabs are an abuse, at least to my eyes.

I wish there was a TPG system where you could get coins attributed and photographed, with the certificate and photo inside a thin slab, and the coin loose.

[divemaster 11]

Most people who are so against any form of grading/encapsulation are typically, an old coin collector that doesnt believe that anyone quite knows as much as they do, they then assume that any nice coin that they have purchased is in a far better grade than it actually is (god knows ive met enough of these type) they also then doubt and rubbish any coin graded by anyone else because they know better!!!!

I have much more respect for collectors who just say that encapsulation/grading is just not for them, and allow and respect people that do grade professionally.