CROWNS

[azda 979]

I'd have to disagree with 2 of you statements divemaster. Firstly i've only been collecting about 4 years, so i'm not an Old collector, compared to a few on here i'm "fresh blood"

Secondly you seem to believe that TPGs are gods of grading, you don't believe they get it wrong? They certainly struggle with English coinage. What you seem to be saying is that older collectors are not Open to new things, well i'm relatively new, so whats the excuse for me and the fact i like to have a coin in my Hand?

And please don't get pissy, its merely a question.....

[divemaster 11]

Dont handle them too much, it de-values them when you pass them around.

[Peckris 579]

Most people who are so against any form of grading/encapsulation are typically, an old coin collector that doesnt believe that anyone quite knows as much as they do, they then assume that any nice coin that they have purchased is in a far better grade than it actually is (god knows ive met enough of these type) they also then doubt and rubbish any coin graded by anyone else because they know better!!!!

I have much more respect for collectors who just say that encapsulation/grading is just not for them, and allow and respect people that do grade professionally.

1. I don't think you will find many if at all on these forums

2. Grading isn't a precise science anyway - even professionals would differ by up to half a grade

I do agree with your 'live and let live' attitude to slabs, but please don't assume that a professional grader is necessarily any better than a serious collector who's been learning it for years. Let me put it to you gently - I'd sooner trust the judgement of Rob and Derek (to pick just two) than a TPG who is mainly in it for the money, to sell slabs.

[azda 979]

I wonder how many of Robs rarities are in slabs, and he does have some rather rare ones

[Peter 615]

I don't object to slabbed coins.They just don't fit my cabinets.

I only have 5 slabs.Most of my coins have been purchased raw. I buy on eye appeal.There are some ugly Unc's out there.

A PCGS MS65 or MS64 are usually nice coins.

[ski 1]

okay.....an old farts view......

im 54 and have been collecting for maybe 45 years now, i dont think i know everything about grading, indeed i would consider myself as someone who knows the coins i collect, but 45 years late ive only just scraped the surface of coins and coin grading, i dont think any of us will live long enough to become an expert in every denomination.

So divemaster, i try and grade accurately but yes i get it wrong from time to time, if you check out my posts here asking for grading comments.....you will see that peckris often says i undergrade florins, because the series sufferes from weaker strikes. ive never rubbished any coin otherwise stated, and the reason i visit here, i definetly dont know better!!!! and am not afraid to seek advice.

I have slabbed coins in my collection, 11 cgs and another 5 or 6 ngc, slabs....i can take them, i can leave them, ive bought them because i like the coins within them. ive never had a coin of my own slabbed. its true that the couple of double florins i have in slabs i would grade EF, the fact that their graded ef65 and ef70, doesnt really matter to me.

the slabbed idea is fundamentally a good one, let down in my opinion by the slabbers. any device that can protect a coin whilst handling is a good thing, but to be honest divemaster coin collectors have been handling raw coins for a couple of hundred of years or more, and those coins still exist in the grades we collectors wish to buy. your comment isnt so much a problem as you may think.

the slabbers are not as perfect as you may like to think, and lets be tottally honest here......they are only giving their own subjective view like any other dealer. i believe slabbing is here to stay, there is a market for it in the US, whether the european market grows the same way only time will tell. The difference i think between the US and the UK, is the acceptance to have everyday modern coins slabbed, ive quoted in past replies cgs prices of £50 for a lizzie sixpence in unc, maybe a £1-to £2 coin at best, and cgs sell these coins slabbed in ef where the series wouldnt even get priced at these grades in most guides.

do i disrespect professional graders who slab......no, it is a ridiculous statement to say so.

i sometimes question their judgement, but then i do some dealers ive dealings with in the raw market.but equally so....many of them have taught me so much over the years.

apart from storage , my real problem with slabs is the minute differences between say an unc 80 and an unc82 and the huge price difference that the higher coin may command for what is still an unc coin, there have been many points observed before about chasing the slab grade and not the coin within, and many have observed this is prevalent in america, sadly this is creeping into cgs slabs and british collectors, the main man who is really pushing cgs slabs is well known amongst uk based collectors and heres a quote from him on the cgs forum

"Interestingly I now seek to have at least UNC (when CGS graded) and if I see an UNC 82 I may buy it to replace an UNC 80 that may already be in my collection!"...........for christs sake does the 2 points difference really matter?

Slabs will always have those who like them, those who dislike them, and those who really couldnt give a toss...ME

im interested in coins, good coins, intersting coins, high grade coins that i cannot afford, coins with history, coins that have been handled by collectors over the years and those used in everyday life over the years. raw okay.....slabbed okay

if the view of the pro slabber here is that im an old fuddy duddy.....so be it,

but the way the view is put across in reasoned debate about the merits of the slabbed storage system and the unneccassary comments made at those who like a more traditional system are not great at providing stimulating educated reasonable discussion.........about coins!!!! when in fact discussing coins would be far more educational.

put em in slabs, put em in 2"envelopes, put em in cabinets.........but lets at least wise up to the fact that a 1960's sixpence worth maybe £2 at best in unc grading.......by anyone...cgs, ngc, pcgs, an old fart like me, spink or fxxxxxg ebay aint worth 50 quid cos its in a slab.

ski

[Paulus 1,975]

okay.....an old farts view......

im 54 and have been collecting for maybe 45 years now, i dont think i know everything about grading, indeed i would consider myself as someone who knows the coins i collect, but 45 years late ive only just scraped the surface of coins and coin grading, i dont think any of us will live long enough to become an expert in every denomination.

So divemaster, i try and grade accurately but yes i get it wrong from time to time, if you check out my posts here asking for grading comments.....you will see that peckris often says i undergrade florins, because the series sufferes from weaker strikes. ive never rubbished any coin otherwise stated, and the reason i visit here, i definetly dont know better!!!! and am not afraid to seek advice.

I have slabbed coins in my collection, 11 cgs and another 5 or 6 ngc, slabs....i can take them, i can leave them, ive bought them because i like the coins within them. ive never had a coin of my own slabbed. its true that the couple of double florins i have in slabs i would grade EF, the fact that their graded ef65 and ef70, doesnt really matter to me.

the slabbed idea is fundamentally a good one, let down in my opinion by the slabbers. any device that can protect a coin whilst handling is a good thing, but to be honest divemaster coin collectors have been handling raw coins for a couple of hundred of years or more, and those coins still exist in the grades we collectors wish to buy. your comment isnt so much a problem as you may think.

the slabbers are not as perfect as you may like to think, and lets be tottally honest here......they are only giving their own subjective view like any other dealer. i believe slabbing is here to stay, there is a market for it in the US, whether the european market grows the same way only time will tell. The difference i think between the US and the UK, is the acceptance to have everyday modern coins slabbed, ive quoted in past replies cgs prices of £50 for a lizzie sixpence in unc, maybe a £1-to £2 coin at best, and cgs sell these coins slabbed in ef where the series wouldnt even get priced at these grades in most guides.

do i disrespect professional graders who slab......no, it is a ridiculous statement to say so.

i sometimes question their judgement, but then i do some dealers ive dealings with in the raw market.but equally so....many of them have taught me so much over the years.

apart from storage , my real problem with slabs is the minute differences between say an unc 80 and an unc82 and the huge price difference that the higher coin may command for what is still an unc coin, there have been many points observed before about chasing the slab grade and not the coin within, and many have observed this is prevalent in america, sadly this is creeping into cgs slabs and british collectors, the main man who is really pushing cgs slabs is well known amongst uk based collectors and heres a quote from him on the cgs forum

"Interestingly I now seek to have at least UNC (when CGS graded) and if I see an UNC 82 I may buy it to replace an UNC 80 that may already be in my collection!"...........for christs sake does the 2 points difference really matter?

Slabs will always have those who like them, those who dislike them, and those who really couldnt give a toss...ME

im interested in coins, good coins, intersting coins, high grade coins that i cannot afford, coins with history, coins that have been handled by collectors over the years and those used in everyday life over the years. raw okay.....slabbed okay

if the view of the pro slabber here is that im an old fuddy duddy.....so be it,

but the way the view is put across in reasoned debate about the merits of the slabbed storage system and the unneccassary comments made at those who like a more traditional system are not great at providing stimulating educated reasonable discussion.........about coins!!!! when in fact discussing coins would be far more educational.

put em in slabs, put em in 2"envelopes, put em in cabinets.........but lets at least wise up to the fact that a 1960's sixpence worth maybe £2 at best in unc grading.......by anyone...cgs, ngc, pcgs, an old fart like me, spink or fxxxxxg ebay aint worth 50 quid cos its in a slab.

ski

Well said Ski, I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything you have said. I am a collector of only 5 years' standing, and sense a lot of 'emperor's new clothes' type nonsense about a lot of what I see out there slabbing wise. I think I would find it quite depressing to be a collector of US coins and virtually forced down this route, in fact I am sure I wouldn't even have been bitten by the bug in the first place! I sense an investor attitude rather than a genuine collector attitude to it all ... but it's not as if, for sure with English coins, the slab is a real guarantee of grade OR authenticity, at least as a form of provenence to subsequent custodians of the coin.

If ever there was an area where there was potential for vested interest, conflict of interest, hype, marketing and hijacking of pure historic and innocent collecting pleasure to spoil this hobby, for me this is it. Along with forgeries proliferating further, ubiquitous slabs would extinguish my passion within a short period if they became almost compulsory as part of the coin trading process.

If all my collectable pieces were confined to slabs I am sure I would be admiring my collection only on Photobucket (other on-line photo sites are available), where I would be able to see them in more detail than I could through a slab's protection, and I think that experience would soon become artificial/superficial for me ... and that would probably signal the end of my love affair with the whole deal. You are only left with the knowledge that 'oh yes, I own that coin', not the tactile experience you have with your coin collection in the raw.

Another old fart's view maybe, but crucial to me, I cannot see me collecting coffins, they might as well be in a bank vault and just an heirloom!

[azda 979]

My last tuppence worth is this.....coin collecting is supposed to be fun, holding History in your hands etc, putting a coin in a slab is like being a Test Tube Baby, sterile and certainly an anti climax. I can live without a piece of plastic telling me what grade a coin is, especially an American slab. I'm not Perfect, but i prefer My harsh grading than a slab

Its not for everyone, especially this (apparent) cretin

P.s, i knew ski was an auld fart.

Edited November 27, 2012 by azda

[Paulus 1,975]

My last tuppence worth is this.....coin collecting is supposed to be fun, holding History in your hands etc, putting a coin in a slab is like being a Test Tube Baby, sterile and certainly an anti climax. I can live without a piece of plastic telling me what grade a coin is, especially an American slab.

Its not for everyone, especially this (apparent) cretin

P.s, i knew ski was an auld fart.

Hear hear Dave, and one of the few coin topics I get wound up about! (If that wasn't a;ready obvious!)

[ski 1]

P.s, i knew ski was an auld fart

yaaaaaayyyy

[Peter 615]

I started collecting at the age of about 5 in the mid 60's.

I'm still learning....I'm burning too much midnight oil on forums etc.

[Rob 3,152]

I started collecting at the age of about 5 in the mid 60's.

I'm still learning....I'm burning too much midnight oil on forums etc.

Midnight oil? Nonsense, it's nearly 2am.

[azda 979]

I started collecting at the age of about 5 in the mid 60's.

I'm still learning....I'm burning too much midnight oil on forums etc.

1860s?

[TomGoodheart 400]

LOL I've only just returned to this topic and , my .. didn't it get heated!

Anyway, for my own twopenn'orth, I am old, though I've only been collecting for 8 1/2 years and feel I can see both sides to the argument. I quite understand the protection aspect, particularly for copper or matte proofs, that's really a no brainer. You don't want marks on your pristine coins .. protect them. And I can sympathise with the autenticity aspect, particularly since there seem to be an alarming number of replica coins that I for one can't identify!

But in the end, I don't collect copper, proofs or modern milled coins! The coins I do collect have been handled by collectors for many, many years and as Dave said earlier, I like that aspect. I am holding a piece of history that has passed through the hands of collectors, soldiers, tinkers and who knows who else. So slabs aren't for me, because they diminish that experience.

To be honest I still tend to see the TPG thing as reflecting two different aspects to the coin collecting hobby. There are those like me, Peter and others, who like to be able to hold a coin. Sure it's maybe not pristine, but then I don't much like those shiny 'as new' museum cleaned hoard coins either. A bit of toning, a bit of history, makes a coin more appealng to me.

And then there are those like the cited example where they will trade up their 'UNC 80' as soon as they see an 'UNC 82'. That's not me. I'm not after 'the best ever' or filling every gap, or having a collection with a certified and verifiable value. That's a different sort of coin collecting.

For me to upgrade there has to be a good reason to do so and I remain to be convinced that a 2 point grading is good enough.

So. tarring everyone with my brush, I think there are 'The Americans' and their sort of collecting and for many (most?), slabs etc fit that style of collecting well. Then there are the 'mahogany tray' collectors like me, who think a little paper ticket and some provenance is more important than raw grade.

Neither is WRONG. They are just DIFFERENT. And so my only gripe I guess is the suggestion that I'm going to have to change, that my collecting habits are out of step with the rest of the world. I don't agree of course. I think there is room for both slabs/TPGs and shall we say, traditional, collectors to coexist.

Yes, slabs will continue to prosper. TPGs are big commercial companies that are moving to monopolise (just look at ebay's US policies to bear that out!) The US market, and so the TPG market is huge.

But there will continue to be coins that aren't worth slabbing and collectors that will break open a slab and those that are left cold by slabs but, when they first see a mahogany tray with coins all sat on their little felt disks, will think, "wow, that's the sort of collection I want".

[Peter 615]

I started collecting at the age of about 5 in the mid 60's.

I'm still learning....I'm burning too much midnight oil on forums etc.

1860s?

I got a BU bun penny every year.I have kept then nice and polished.

[TomGoodheart 400]

I got a BU bun penny every year.I have kept then nice and polished.

Gor Blomey Pete! Did nobody tell ya ter invest! You could'a been part of Railways through Africa, Dams across the Nile, Fleets of ocean greyhounds, Majestic, self-amortizing canals ... and all fer tuppence, frugally an prudently invested!

And you're going to tell us you blew it all feeding the birds I expect.

[VickySilver 830]

Honestly Azda, you really have proved a clown of the first order. I NEVER SAID THERE WERE MORE COINS SLABBED THAN UNSLABBED.And I gave you real world numbers of coins, something your Royal Laziness has not been able to do. Now if you choose to be a bullock (to use your very words(, so be it. Just because you haven't a clue, you try to change the argument. Slabs are far more common than you seem to realize, something I have pointed out to you and also invited you to check several sites to give you an idea of the scope. I do not think they are the end-all and have had definate disagreements with some of the attributions and grading. I also do not like the space they consume and think they may not have a good place for circulated or most hammered bits, or common pieces.

If you would recall, there was a question about slabbing matte set holders and it is not done to my knowledge. Also, as far as cost, occasionally the slabbers have sales, and I got one email recently from PCGS that they were slabbing "economy" coins for $10 plus shipping and insurance - not too bad. Mostly I have seen these slabs on higher valued coins but they are obviously trying to reach a larger audience and "pump" the volume.

[Peter 615]

Phew the thread was getting too hot.

Bite your tounges.

[Gary D 76]

I have about 1000 coins in my collection of which about a dozen were obtained slabbed, all have been broken out, one being a top pop. I just don't see the hoards of slabbed coins here in the UK. They are still in the minority. If you said 5% of coins here in the UK were slabbed I would be shocked.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Gary D

[Coinery 1,147]

Yes, with Peter on this one, and no doubt everyone else!

It's my own thought that just about every detail, including the ethics, of slabbing are now fully understood, by all of those who are in favour, and by all of those who are against (not forgetting those inbetween, of course). All that's left at the end of the day is personal preference and, anything beyond that, is just about frustration at not being understood.

I'm personally in favour of coin-talk and, I'm so very happy to say, is what happens on this the finest forum out there...excepting my one-to-one conversation on FAKE Mary Groat that is !

Merry Christmas, chaps...it's door number 1 on the advent calendar this Saturday!

[azda 979]

I believe you mentioned the Western World is using them. I'll Refrain from lowering myself to your gutter Level.

You have a nice day now Vicky and a happy Christmas my son

[Peter 615]

Yes, with Peter on this one, and no doubt everyone else!

It's my own thought that just about every detail, including the ethics, of slabbing are now fully understood, by all of those who are in favour, and by all of those who are against (not forgetting those inbetween, of course). All that's left at the end of the day is personal preference and, anything beyond that, is just about frustration at not being understood.

I'm personally in favour of coin-talk and, I'm so very happy to say, is what happens on this the finest forum out there...excepting my one-to-one conversation on FAKE Mary Groat that is !

Merry Christmas, chaps...it's door number 1 on the advent calendar this Saturday!

Can't wait...the fruit bowls are full of small citrus fruits,the nuts are in supply and a huge capon has been ordered.

My Xmas list includes a bottle of Glenmoray and a few good Cubans.Father Xmas still gets a couple of sausage rolls and a large Malt on Xmas Eve and my girls are 15 & 17.Mother stays over and does the veg.I cook the chicken/capon...we don't bother with pud (the starter is sherry and smoked fish)a great day.My eldest has just turned up with a new kitten who I'm sure will climb on or pee on the tree.

Here comes my 19th nervous breakdown.

[Coinery 1,147]

Yes, with Peter on this one, and no doubt everyone else!

It's my own thought that just about every detail, including the ethics, of slabbing are now fully understood, by all of those who are in favour, and by all of those who are against (not forgetting those inbetween, of course). All that's left at the end of the day is personal preference and, anything beyond that, is just about frustration at not being understood.

I'm personally in favour of coin-talk and, I'm so very happy to say, is what happens on this the finest forum out there...excepting my one-to-one conversation on FAKE Mary Groat that is !

Merry Christmas, chaps...it's door number 1 on the advent calendar this Saturday!

Can't wait...the fruit bowls are full of small citrus fruits,the nuts are in supply and a huge capon has been ordered.

My Xmas list includes a bottle of Glenmoray and a few good Cubans.Father Xmas still gets a couple of sausage rolls and a large Malt on Xmas Eve and my girls are 15 & 17.Mother stays over and does the veg.I cook the chicken/capon...we don't bother with pud (the starter is sherry and smoked fish)a great day.My eldest has just turned up with a new kitten who I'm sure will climb on or pee on the tree.

Here comes my 19th nervous breakdown.

Nut roast is currently being coordinated! AND Father Christmas drinks Talisker! For goodness sake, Peter, didn't you know that?

[Coinery 1,147]

I can't remember if it was Rob or Clive that was a Talisker lad. You'll have to get a bottle in Peter, I'm afraid!

[Peter 615]

Stuart

I don't enjoy the smokie malts and prefer the Spey offerings.I can remember getting tasked on cask malts at 55%.My actual favourite is a bottle of standard Jamesons. I only smoke when I meet up with a buddy on holiday when we do a couple of Cubans with a malt and a fillet steak but after 2 Cubans and 1/2 a bottle of malt I would be happy to suck on a Birds Eye burger.We talk the talk of a 4am start for fishing...rarely make it but we have had a few good mornings.Mrs Peter delivers the bacon butties at 7am and they often end up in the hedge.Still do it next year though.

Mrs Peter will then drive me to a decent Cornish beach where I crash out until the next Bar b Que.

We've had 14 years experience doing this for an early summer holiday and all the kids get on well together. Hengar Manor...apart from the 360 mile journey it has worked well.We do take the ladies out for a meal as well

Edited November 27, 2012 by Peter