CROWNS

[Coinery 1,147]

Stuart

I don't enjoy the smokie malts and prefer the Spey offerings.I can remember getting tasked on cask malts at 55%.My actual favourite is a bottle of standard Jamesons. I only smoke when I meet up with a buddy on holiday when we do a couple of Cubans with a malt and a fillet steak but after 2 Cubans and 1/2 a bottle of malt I would be happy to suck on a Birds Eye burger.We talk the talk of a 4am start for fishing...rarely make it but we have had a few good mornings.Mrs Peter delivers the bacon butties at 7am and they often end up in the hedge.Still do it next year though.

Mrs Peter will then drive me to a decent Cornish beach where I crash out until the next Bar b Que.

We've had 14 years experience doing this for an early summer holiday and all the kids get on well together. Hengar Manor...apart from the 360 mile journey it has worked well.We do take the ladies out for a meal as well

I'm nothing like that at all!

[Peter 615]

Stuart

Treat your ladies well.I currently have a Springer on my foot and a Kitten on my head.In the morning it is like bedlam the girls must catch the bus the cats need feeding and a mad dog who thinks he is going to the woods...It is a madhouse.I Wouldn't change it though.

My Dr said Valium or coins and I try to mix both

[mike 5]

Most people who are so against any form of grading/encapsulation are typically, an old coin collector that doesnt believe that anyone quite knows as much as they do, they then assume that any nice coin that they have purchased is in a far better grade than it actually is (god knows ive met enough of these type) they also then doubt and rubbish any coin graded by anyone else because they know better!!!!

I have much more respect for collectors who just say that encapsulation/grading is just not for them, and allow and respect people that do grade professionally.

1. I don't think you will find many if at all on these forums

2. Grading isn't a precise science anyway - even professionals would differ by up to half a grade

I do agree with your 'live and let live' attitude to slabs, but please don't assume that a professional grader is necessarily any better than a serious collector who's been learning it for years. Let me put it to you gently - I'd sooner trust the judgement of Rob and Derek (to pick just two) than a TPG who is mainly in it for the money, to sell slabs.

I suspect lot of members on this forum just don't understand CGS grading process. Yes, a professional grader is not necessarily any better than a serious collector - but the difference is, that in CGS 2 graders have to refer to the extensive benchmark set of coins (I have seen some of these benchmark sets - they are stunning), each of which is allocated a unique number. When looking at such factors as striking, lustre, problems (for example, contact marks, stains), hairlines, haymarking, adjustment marks, cabinet friction etc, each grader compares the coin being graded to the relevant section of the benchmark set. When the benchmark coin that matches the aspect of the coin being graded is found, its unique number is fed into a computer. When all the factors have been entered, a programme that weights the numerous factors produces the numerical CGS UK grade. That is why their grading is so consistent and I exactly know what I can expect from coin graded UNC80, 85 or 88. Obviously nothing is perfect, however IMO this is by far the best attempt to reduce subjectivity when grading coins I have come across.. The sad fact is that most of the coins described by professional dealers as UNC will never make even the basic UNC80 grade... With the plethora of faked coins coming from Far East, the fact that CGS guarantee that the graded coin is genuine (or to pay the submitter the full market value of any non genuine English Milled coin that they may encapsulate) is quite reassuring for me as well.

[Coinery 1,147]

With the plethora of faked coins coming from Far East, the fact that CGS guarantee that the graded coin is genuine (or to pay the submitter the full market value of any non genuine English Milled coin that they may encapsulate) is quite reassuring for me as well.

Isn't there just the smallest bit of pleasure in reading about and researching a coin you're especially desiring? As an example I've already offered, if you were to think of buying a 'problem' shilling of G3 to add to your proud collection of early 19C silver, wouldn't a huge part of the pleasure in achieving that be your new learnings on the counterfeit's of G3? It's all out there!

If I really wanted a gothic crown, the research into what's not a gothic crown, would be as much of the pleasure as knowing what is!

Not to mention Peter's got a kitten ripe and ready to spray his Christmas tree next week!

[Peckris 579]

Most people who are so against any form of grading/encapsulation are typically, an old coin collector that doesnt believe that anyone quite knows as much as they do, they then assume that any nice coin that they have purchased is in a far better grade than it actually is (god knows ive met enough of these type) they also then doubt and rubbish any coin graded by anyone else because they know better!!!!

I have much more respect for collectors who just say that encapsulation/grading is just not for them, and allow and respect people that do grade professionally.

1. I don't think you will find many if at all on these forums

2. Grading isn't a precise science anyway - even professionals would differ by up to half a grade

I do agree with your 'live and let live' attitude to slabs, but please don't assume that a professional grader is necessarily any better than a serious collector who's been learning it for years. Let me put it to you gently - I'd sooner trust the judgement of Rob and Derek (to pick just two) than a TPG who is mainly in it for the money, to sell slabs.

I suspect lot of members on this forum just don't understand CGS grading process. Yes, a professional grader is not necessarily any better than a serious collector - but the difference is, that in CGS 2 graders have to refer to the extensive benchmark set of coins (I have seen some of these benchmark sets - they are stunning), each of which is allocated a unique number. When looking at such factors as striking, lustre, problems (for example, contact marks, stains), hairlines, haymarking, adjustment marks, cabinet friction etc, each grader compares the coin being graded to the relevant section of the benchmark set. When the benchmark coin that matches the aspect of the coin being graded is found, its unique number is fed into a computer. When all the factors have been entered, a programme that weights the numerous factors produces the numerical CGS UK grade. That is why their grading is so consistent and I exactly know what I can expect from coin graded UNC80, 85 or 88. Obviously nothing is perfect, however IMO this is by far the best attempt to reduce subjectivity when grading coins I have come across.. The sad fact is that most of the coins described by professional dealers as UNC will never make even the basic UNC80 grade... With the plethora of faked coins coming from Far East, the fact that CGS guarantee that the graded coin is genuine (or to pay the submitter the full market value of any non genuine English Milled coin that they may encapsulate) is quite reassuring for me as well.

Thanks for that Mike - I bet I'm not the only one here who didn't know CGS went through a process so thorough!

[divemaster 11]

Before i started having any coins graded by CGS i booked up to go and watch the grading process. As Mike says it is very carefully and professionaly carried out. When starting out it is shocking how brutal their grading can be, but it sets benchmarks and gives the collector tips on many aspects of collecting. After a while it becomes one of the few things i trust. I often get CGS to "cast their eye over a coin" before i purchase it.

[TomGoodheart 400]

Before i started having any coins graded by CGS i booked up to go and watch the grading process. As Mike says it is very carefully and professionaly carried out. When starting out it is shocking how brutal their grading can be, but it sets benchmarks and gives the collector tips on many aspects of collecting. After a while it becomes one of the few things i trust. I often get CGS to "cast their eye over a coin" before i purchase it.

Interesting. I think part of the problem US slabbed coins have is tales of misgrading and misattribution. Now that may be all in the past and standards may have improved, but if you have doubts about a service then it's difficult the then think of its increasing use as a good thing.

So, in my neutrality, I can see what you and Mike have said about CGS as being nothing but a good thing. Reassuring that there is a proper 'system' to it all and a benchmark for reference. And if there is consistency, all the better.

But for myself, really, someone else's idea of grade is of very little importance to me. When buying a coin I ask myself, is it better than the example I have? Is it as good as (or approaching, I'm not made of money) the best (or better end) I've ever seen? And is it generally a nice looking coin (because to me 'eye appeal' scores over grade most times)? If it ticks all three boxes, irrespective of whether somebody has given it a F+ or gEF grade, then it'll go on my wants list.

So I think I shall remain in the 'I can see the appeal to some collectors, but it's not something I want for my coins' camp for a little bit longer. And fortunately our cats are accustomed to the tree and Father Christmas drinks whatever I'm drinking in this house, thank you!

[Coinery 1,147]

Before i started having any coins graded by CGS i booked up to go and watch the grading process. As Mike says it is very carefully and professionaly carried out. When starting out it is shocking how brutal their grading can be, but it sets benchmarks and gives the collector tips on many aspects of collecting. After a while it becomes one of the few things i trust. I often get CGS to "cast their eye over a coin" before i purchase it.

It sounds like you've got a valuable relationship with CGS, you can never have too many contacts in this hobby! Good for you, divemaster, I'd be happy to have that in-ness with CSG, even though I don't actively collect slabs.

[Peter 615]

No disrespect to CGS (fascinating) I thought a couple of duffers argued over the grade whilst eating a bacon sarnie.

If I wanted to discuss a proposed or purchased coin I would go to an expert on this forum.

When I see a 1915 1/4d in VF slabbed and given a price tag of £35 I nearly chocked on my sunny delight.

It is a coin worth £1

[Coinery 1,147]

When buying a coin I ask myself, is it better than the example I have? Is it as good as (or approaching, I'm not made of money) the best (or better end) I've ever seen? And is it generally a nice looking coin (because to me 'eye appeal' scores over grade most times)? If it ticks all three boxes, irrespective of whether somebody has given it a F+ or gEF grade, then it'll go on my wants list.

and Father Christmas drinks whatever I'm drinking in this house, thank you!

My brief too for hammered!

AND Father Christmas drinks Talisker, you ask him!

[Gary D 76]

Many years ago we had a couple of cats, at the time they were young cats and one Christmas one of them apparently tried a bit of the tinsel from the tree. Anyway next day this cat was seen walking around with about 2 inches of the tinsel hanging out of its arse. I didn't dare pull it in case there was still a foot of it still in there. The funniest thing though was not the cat walking around looking done up for Christmas but the phone conversation with the vets, trying to describe the symptoms with tears running down my face and the roars of laughter from the receptionist on the other end of the phone. :lol:

[mike 5]

No disrespect to CGS (fascinating) I thought a couple of duffers argued over the grade whilst eating a bacon sarnie.

If I wanted to discuss a proposed or purchased coin I would go to an expert on this forum.

When I see a 1915 1/4d in VF slabbed and given a price tag of £35 I nearly chocked on my sunny delight.

It is a coin worth £1

You may or may not be aware that there are 2 varieties of 1915 Frathing:

1, Freeman 593A, Dies 1+A - a very scarce variety, having the 'TT' in 'Britt'

closer together

2, Freeman 594, Dies 2+A (gap between TT of BRITT is wider (previously

they almost touched)

I am sure the slabbed Frathing you saw was Freeman 593A as Freeman 594 is valued by CGS in VF50 grade at 6,- pounds (= almost worthless as cost of slabbing is 12,- pounds). For your information I found one example of Freeman 593A sold by LCA as a raw coin in Auction 124, March 2009, lot 1374 – in VF grade it sold for 20,- pounds + buyers premium. Considering the cost of slabbing, 35,- pounds seems reasonable (not mentioning the fact that CGS grade VF 55 coin would be considered by many dealers as EF coin ...)

[Peckris 579]

No disrespect to CGS (fascinating) I thought a couple of duffers argued over the grade whilst eating a bacon sarnie.

If I wanted to discuss a proposed or purchased coin I would go to an expert on this forum.

When I see a 1915 1/4d in VF slabbed and given a price tag of £35 I nearly chocked on my sunny delight.

It is a coin worth £1

You may or may not be aware that there are 2 varieties of 1915 Frathing:

1, Freeman 593A, Dies 1+A - a very scarce variety, having the 'TT' in 'Britt'

closer together

2, Freeman 594, Dies 2+A (gap between TT of BRITT is wider (previously

they almost touched)

I am sure the slabbed Frathing you saw was Freeman 593A as Freeman 594 is valued by CGS in VF50 grade at 6,- pounds (= almost worthless as cost of slabbing is 12,- pounds). For your information I found one example of Freeman 593A sold by LCA as a raw coin in Auction 124, March 2009, lot 1374 – in VF grade it sold for 20,- pounds + buyers premium. Considering the cost of slabbing, 35,- pounds seems reasonable (not mentioning the fact that CGS grade VF 55 coin would be considered by many dealers as EF coin ...)

I think Peter knows the two varieties of 1915 farthings - but you might like to look at this :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1915-GEORGE-V-FARTHING-CGS-VF45-/190755678959?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item2c69ecaaef

A CGS slabbed 1915 farthing in VF for £19 - the normal kind. Believe me, a VF Freeman 593A would fetch a lot more than £20, or even £35. Even years ago, before ChrisP took over, a VF example was listed at £60 in CCGB.

[mike 5]

No disrespect to CGS (fascinating) I thought a couple of duffers argued over the grade whilst eating a bacon sarnie.

If I wanted to discuss a proposed or purchased coin I would go to an expert on this forum.

When I see a 1915 1/4d in VF slabbed and given a price tag of £35 I nearly chocked on my sunny delight.

It is a coin worth £1

You may or may not be aware that there are 2 varieties of 1915 Frathing:

1, Freeman 593A, Dies 1+A - a very scarce variety, having the 'TT' in 'Britt'

closer together

2, Freeman 594, Dies 2+A (gap between TT of BRITT is wider (previously

they almost touched)

I am sure the slabbed Frathing you saw was Freeman 593A as Freeman 594 is valued by CGS in VF50 grade at 6,- pounds (= almost worthless as cost of slabbing is 12,- pounds). For your information I found one example of Freeman 593A sold by LCA as a raw coin in Auction 124, March 2009, lot 1374 – in VF grade it sold for 20,- pounds + buyers premium. Considering the cost of slabbing, 35,- pounds seems reasonable (not mentioning the fact that CGS grade VF 55 coin would be considered by many dealers as EF coin ...)

I think Peter knows the two varieties of 1915 farthings - but you might like to look at this :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1915-GEORGE-V-FARTHING-CGS-VF45-/190755678959?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item2c69ecaaef

A CGS slabbed 1915 farthing in VF for £19 - the normal kind. Believe me, a VF Freeman 593A would fetch a lot more than £20, or even £35. Even years ago, before ChrisP took over, a VF example was listed at £60 in CCGB.

The coin on Ebay is valued by CGS at 6,- pounds (as anybody can check on their website). It is not their fault that this seller is asking ridiculous price... ebay is full of overpriced raw coins as well.

[Peckris 579]

No disrespect to CGS (fascinating) I thought a couple of duffers argued over the grade whilst eating a bacon sarnie.

If I wanted to discuss a proposed or purchased coin I would go to an expert on this forum.

When I see a 1915 1/4d in VF slabbed and given a price tag of £35 I nearly chocked on my sunny delight.

It is a coin worth £1

You may or may not be aware that there are 2 varieties of 1915 Frathing:

1, Freeman 593A, Dies 1+A - a very scarce variety, having the 'TT' in 'Britt'

closer together

2, Freeman 594, Dies 2+A (gap between TT of BRITT is wider (previously

they almost touched)

I am sure the slabbed Frathing you saw was Freeman 593A as Freeman 594 is valued by CGS in VF50 grade at 6,- pounds (= almost worthless as cost of slabbing is 12,- pounds). For your information I found one example of Freeman 593A sold by LCA as a raw coin in Auction 124, March 2009, lot 1374 – in VF grade it sold for 20,- pounds + buyers premium. Considering the cost of slabbing, 35,- pounds seems reasonable (not mentioning the fact that CGS grade VF 55 coin would be considered by many dealers as EF coin ...)

I think Peter knows the two varieties of 1915 farthings - but you might like to look at this :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1915-GEORGE-V-FARTHING-CGS-VF45-/190755678959?pt=UK_Coins_BritishMilled_RL&hash=item2c69ecaaef

A CGS slabbed 1915 farthing in VF for £19 - the normal kind. Believe me, a VF Freeman 593A would fetch a lot more than £20, or even £35. Even years ago, before ChrisP took over, a VF example was listed at £60 in CCGB.

The coin on Ebay is valued by CGS at 6,- pounds (as anybody can check on their website). It is not their fault that this seller is asking ridiculous price... ebay is full of overpriced raw coins as well.

I wasn't criticising CGS here - as you say, it's not their fault that an eBay ripoffer has inflated that by 3x.

[bagerap 706]

I'm here as an disinterested observer, medals and exonumia are my area and slabbing is unlikely to affect these in my lifetime. Thus all of my items are raw but I can see the high end Art Medal market going towards slabbing.

There are instances in modern life of a product or service being introduced to fulfill a need that previously had not existed. For example "Next day delivery" and JIT (just in time) warehousing, concepts which replaced the older ideas of pre-planning and stock control. These concepts took hold,in part,because they replaced the requirement for skill and knowledge.

To a certain extent TPGs do the same for collectors who either cannot master the complex U.S. points grading system; or are too lazy to do so. And as for investors, it's just a way of listing the product.

All this said, I'm interested in one comment:

"594 is valued by CGS in VF50 grade at 6,- pounds (= almost worthless as cost of slabbing is 12,- pounds"

Yet as shown earlier from the ebay example they're perfectly happy to accept £12 to grade a coin worth £6. Good business sure, but what does it say to the coin community at large? "Give us your money and we'll give you the grade"

And just out of interest, just how many countries outside of North America are listed in Krause under the ponderous 70 point system?

This rant is courtesy of Old Fettercairn.

[azda 979]

But Rob if 20 people have this coin (without slabbing) it tells me instantly that all the numbers ive been believing for so long are wrong, and it would make me seriously re-think my investments for the future.

Martin you mentionef only 10 of these exist, so 20 people could'nt own 10 Coins, or have i missed something? Where do These figures come from? ESC or some other source?

Checked My ESC and the 1935 Edge error is R6 (3-4 known) you're now saying 10 which obviously means more have been found? Is the numbers populated by CGS by the amount they've slabbed?

Edited November 29, 2012 by azda

[Peter 615]

Why do CGS Slab Shite and try to evoke large premiums. I am a farthing so called specialist and could teach you boys a few things.

I will remain to my buddies to this forum.You are missing the point of specialists.A BIG lesson for CGS as I know far more than you.

[azda 979]

Why do CGS Slab Shite and try to evoke large premiums. I am a farthing so called specialist and could teach you boys a few things.

I will remain to my buddies to this forum.You are missing the point of specialists.A BIG lesson for CGS as I know far more than you.

CGS are in the slabbing Business Peter, they can only do what someone submirs i suppose.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Most people who are so against any form of grading/encapsulation are typically, an old coin collector that doesnt believe that anyone quite knows as much as they do, they then assume that any nice coin that they have purchased is in a far better grade than it actually is (god knows ive met enough of these type) they also then doubt and rubbish any coin graded by anyone else because they know better!!!!

I have much more respect for collectors who just say that encapsulation/grading is just not for them, and allow and respect people that do grade professionally.

1. I don't think you will find many if at all on these forums

2. Grading isn't a precise science anyway - even professionals would differ by up to half a grade

I do agree with your 'live and let live' attitude to slabs, but please don't assume that a professional grader is necessarily any better than a serious collector who's been learning it for years. Let me put it to you gently - I'd sooner trust the judgement of Rob and Derek (to pick just two) than a TPG who is mainly in it for the money, to sell slabs.

I suspect lot of members on this forum just don't understand CGS grading process. Yes, a professional grader is not necessarily any better than a serious collector - but the difference is, that in CGS 2 graders have to refer to the extensive benchmark set of coins (I have seen some of these benchmark sets - they are stunning), each of which is allocated a unique number. When looking at such factors as striking, lustre, problems (for example, contact marks, stains), hairlines, haymarking, adjustment marks, cabinet friction etc, each grader compares the coin being graded to the relevant section of the benchmark set. When the benchmark coin that matches the aspect of the coin being graded is found, its unique number is fed into a computer. When all the factors have been entered, a programme that weights the numerous factors produces the numerical CGS UK grade. That is why their grading is so consistent and I exactly know what I can expect from coin graded UNC80, 85 or 88. Obviously nothing is perfect, however IMO this is by far the best attempt to reduce subjectivity when grading coins I have come across.. The sad fact is that most of the coins described by professional dealers as UNC will never make even the basic UNC80 grade... With the plethora of faked coins coming from Far East, the fact that CGS guarantee that the graded coin is genuine (or to pay the submitter the full market value of any non genuine English Milled coin that they may encapsulate) is quite reassuring for me as well.

Thanks for that Mike - I bet I'm not the only one here who didn't know CGS went through a process so thorough!

Mike, as most on here know, I used to be a traffic cop. We used an in car speed detection device called a VASCAR unit. It is basically a stop watch and distance measurement unit. At the start of each shift I had to calibrate the unit using a measured half mile on a main road and a stopwatch to ensure it was working correctly. Two questions were always raised in our office "Who calibrates the measuring wheel for the half mile and who calibrates the stop watch"

A long winded way of asking "Who determines the bench mark set of coins?????"

As a professional dealer does it matter a toss if you buy a coin from me that I have called UNC if you think it is only GEF or vice versa a GEF that you think is UNC? You have bought the coin NOT my little paper envelope with my opinion of grade written on it.

I have been a London Coins customer for many years and have been left a little peeved with 2 very expensive coins that were certainly not up to the grade given in the catalogue, not exactly reassuring that they are the founder/owners of CGS.

Just as a little aside why don't a couple of the collectors on here that believe CGS are ultra accurate conduct a little experiment;

Submit 10 run of the mill coins to CGS for slabbing and await their graded return. Wait a few months then crack them out and re-submit via another forum member and see what the new grades are.

I'll wager a nice coin against a similar offering from you that at least half come back with different grades on them (ie EF 75 changes by one point or more etc).

[azda 979]

Just to compare a dealers grade and a graded holder from PCGS grade, here are 2 coins. The 1st is PCGS graded MS 64 the 2nd is from a dealer which is still avaliable and was graded at GVF

Edited November 29, 2012 by azda

[azda 979]

Why do CGS Slab Shite and try to evoke large premiums. I am a farthing so called specialist and could teach you boys a few things.

I will remain to my buddies to this forum.You are missing the point of specialists.A BIG lesson for CGS as I know far more than you.

CGS are in the slabbing Business Peter, they can only do what someone submits i suppose.

[Peckris 579]

Just to compare a dealers grade and a graded holder from PCGS grade, here are 2 coins. The 1st is PCGS graded MS 64 the 2nd is from a dealer which is still avaliable and was graded at GVF

Not quite a fair comparison Dave - the penny is a tiny coin and as we all know, tiny coins suffer from a lack of detail; the 4d will show much more, so I wouldn't say those grades were out by very much.

[divemaster 11]

Azda - Their are two types of error edge, the proof, and the currency type. I have the only one of either types that appear on CGS listings, i have the proof version which is listed in esc as R5 (5-10) its the currency type which is listed as R6 (3-4).

The whole point of my previous thread was to see if more than 10 people owned up to owning the proof variety, this would indicate to me that i shouldnt be believing all that is written.

Anyone wanna sell me a currency version?

[Rob 3,152]

Azda - Their are two types of error edge, the proof, and the currency type. I have the only one of either types that appear on CGS listings, i have the proof version which is listed in esc as R5 (5-10) its the currency type which is listed as R6 (3-4).

The whole point of my previous thread was to see if more than 10 people owned up to owning the proof variety, this would indicate to me that i shouldnt be believing all that is written.

Anyone wanna sell me a currency version?

Unless the source of the information was the original manufacturer of the item in question, I would treat any rarity value with a pinch of salt. That applies in both directions, but doesn't mean that you average them out to believe the info is on balance correct.