Mules?

[weebo]

can some one tell me about these and where i can get them as they seem really cool? i learned about htem from a movie i watched and seems like a cool thing

[Rob]

can some one tell me about these and where i can get them as they seem really cool? i learned about htem from a movie i watched and seems like a cool thing

Mules are where an obverse and reverse die have been paired that don't belong together. The most recent example of this is the undated 20p where the old 20p obverse die was paired with the new 20p reverse to give a coin without a date. If the old reverse had been paired with the new obverse, you would have had a date on both sides.

Most mules are a little more subtle than this. So for example, the third issue Queen Anne shilling dated 1711 is a mule because the 4th issue shilling was introduced in 1710. There are quite a few throughout the coinage, but most are rare and you would be unlikely to encounter them. The easiest way to get a mule is an undated 20p (but don't pay more than £30ish).

[weebo]

man they would be hard to get hold of wouldnt they lol, so there like coins that went wrong?

[weebo]

was these 20p put into curculation hten? maybe i might be lucky to get one in my change :-)

[Rob]

man they would be hard to get hold of wouldnt they lol, so there like coins that went wrong?

Individually all dies are right for a particular moment in time, but people make mistakes. The 1711 3rd bust shilling is the rarest Anne shilling. The 4th bust 1711 is the commonest. Just as engravers pick up the wrong letter and punch it in, so mint workers pick up the wrong die and strike coins until the mistake is noticed. Mules are more common amongst patterns. A good example of this is the large number of impossible die combinations produced by W J Taylor in the 1800s after he acquired the old Soho Mint dies in 1848.

Yes, you might pick up an undated 20p in your change.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Rob

[weebo]

coool Rob i think you might me my coin tutor :-)

[Peter]

Rob is a very advanced collector/dealer.(a fountain of knowledge )

Try your local library and use the forum to learn.

[weebo]

what will i find that the library?

[Accumulator]

Some mules are reasonably common but can be hard to identify. Collectors get a great deal of pleasure from finding these as quite often the seller is unaware of the subtle differences. An example of this would be the 1913 penny, which is commonly found as either a '1 + A' or '2 + B' die pairing (where 1 or 2 denote different obverses and A or B denote different reverses). Interested collectors scan dealers' coins or eBay looking for the much rarer '1 + B' or '2 + A' combinations. In top grade these would be worth several times the value of the more common coins.

For 1913 I have 1 + A, 2 + B and 2 + A in top grade but have never found an UNC 1 +B, despite this being listed by Freeman (the definitive guide) as not especially rare. If you find one in UNC I have £150+ waiting!

Edited September 7, 2012 by Accumulator

[Peter]

what will i find that the library?

Your library will have a good stock of books.Try before you buy

[Debbie]

I think that coin collecting could prove a quite tricky - I have trouble understanding all the said reverse combinations, and I don't have dyslexia!

[weebo]

great i will go see what sectoin will they be under? sorry for all the questions you will get used to me

[weebo]

I think that coin collecting could prove a quite tricky - I have trouble understanding all the said reverse combinations, and I don't have dyslexia!

yes Accumulator's post is mind boggling but i hope to understand one day, i love that one penny coin with the two colours is very pretty

[Accumulator]

I think that coin collecting could prove a quite tricky - I have trouble understanding all the said reverse combinations, and I don't have dyslexia!

yes Accumulator's post is mind boggling but i hope to understand one day, i love that one penny coin with the two colours is very pretty

I presume you refer to the bi-metallic model penny in my avatar. This coin is fairly common, having been produced in great quantities by Joseph Moore as an alternative to the pre-1860 large copper pennies. His concept was that the intrinsic value of the metal centre allowed for a much smaller coin. Despite being popular with the public, they were never officially adopted and in 1860 the Royal Mint produced the now famous 'bun head' bronze penny instead.

The particular coin in my avatar is extremely rare, being one of only 4 known which display a date (1844).

[weebo]

I think that coin collecting could prove a quite tricky - I have trouble understanding all the said reverse combinations, and I don't have dyslexia!

yes Accumulator's post is mind boggling but i hope to understand one day, i love that one penny coin with the two colours is very pretty

I presume you refer to the bi-metallic model penny in my avatar. This coin is fairly common, having been produced in great quantities by Joseph Moore as an alternative to the pre-1860 large copper pennies. His concept was that the intrinsic value of the metal centre allowed for a much smaller coin. Despite being popular with the public, they were never officially adopted and in 1860 the Royal Mint produced the now famous 'bun head' bronze penny instead.

The particular coin in my avatar is extremely rare, being one of only 4 known which display a date (1844).

Wow thats really exciting known you have that coin i will have to look out for some of the not so rare ones to add to my new collection, thank you for all your addvice :-)

[Peckris]

great i will go see what sectoin will they be under? sorry for all the questions you will get used to me

Assuming you have a big library near you (large town or city), then ask for the Reference Section; you could also ask if they have any books on coins in it. A small local library may not have much, if at all.

Two good books to start you off are "Collectors Coins GB" (it's a price guide for coins between 1797 and 1967, but there's a LOT more in it than just prices), and "Grading British Coins". Both books have been written by members of this forum, they are inexpensive, and would be a good start for a beginner. Click on the advert above (the picture of books).

[TomGoodheart]

My local library has coin books under Art / Antiques, so it may vary a bit. But staff can direct you.

As for mules, they have probably been around for as long as coins have! Here's one of mine. The mint designed a new obverse (front) die, possibly for smaller diameter coins than previously.

New reverse dies of a smaller style were presumably made at the same time, but a few coins were struck using the older, larger, reverse. As you can see, the lettering ('legend') around the reverse shield don't all fit on the coin! Not terribly exciting perhaps, but quite rare!

Oh, and if you're thinking 'what a scrappy coin!' it's because earlier coins were made by hand, rather than machine and so varied much more in quality. ... plus it's been around for over 350 years.

[declanwmagee]

Mules are great. They are great because you can find rare coins that most people haven't noticed.

A good example to look out for is the 1962 halfcrown. Buy a few in high grade (eBay, £2-£3 each), line them up next to each other, and see if you can spot the differences. Take some photos close up and post them here, and we'll tell you what you should be looking for.

Try it with 1953 farthings too.

These are both "crossover mules". A crossover mule is when they changed from production of one type to another halfway through the year.

Sometimes they made a coin with the old front and the new back, by mistake, and one with a new front and an old back, by mistake.

So you end up with 4 different types of what, to most people, looks like the same coin:

1) Old with Old (correct)

2) New with New (correct)

3) Old with New (mistake)

4) New with Old (mistake)

Edited September 7, 2012 by declanwmagee

[Rob]

Things can get even more bizarre.

First up is a 2d obverse with a 4d reverse.

Followed by a 3d obverse with a 2d reverse!

[weebo]

wow they hardly look like a coin much no more but veyr old, amazing really

[davidrj]

For 1913 I have 1 + A, 2 + B and 2 + A in top grade but have never found an UNC 1 +B, despite this being listed by Freeman (the definitive guide) as not especially rare. If you find one in UNC I have £150+ waiting!

Court's (1972) figures agree with Freeman

1+A 2434

1+B 296

2+A 162

2+B 8292

suggesting a mintage of 1.7M for 1+B

However Sealy (1970) has 2+A rare, 1+B very rare;

I have a nice 2+A but a decent 1+B is on my wants list too

[Rob]

wow they hardly look like a coin much no more but veyr old, amazing really

The second coin I believe was probably struck at Worcester in Jan-Feb 1644/5, while the first was probably struck a few months later after New Year 1645, maybe in late June or July, but also at Worcester.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Rob

[TomGoodheart]

wow they hardly look like a coin much no more but veyr old, amazing really

True that they look different from our current coins. That's largely the difference between hand made and machine made coins. Wobbly edges. Parts of the design unclear due to wear or poor manufacture. But I think one of the nice things about coins is the link to the past. Here for example is a vary similar shield design. The first is a shilling of James I from 1624, the second is a pound coin from 2010. Apart from the lis of France being dropped from the design in the 1800s they are pretty similar I reckon.

Edited September 8, 2012 by TomGoodheart

[Peter]

wow they hardly look like a coin much no more but veyr old, amazing really

True that they look different from our current coins. That's largely the difference between hand made and machine made coins. Wobbly edges. Parts of the design unclear due to wear or poor manufacture. But I think one of the nice things about coins is the link to the past. Here for example is a vary similar shield design. The first is a shilling of James I from 1624, the second is a pound coin from 2010. Apart from the lis of France being dropped from the design in the 1800s they are pretty similar I reckon.

Sinc

fantastic Richard.It is like comparing a British Leyland to a modern car.

All we do with our cars are service them.I have been lucky from 1984 to have company cars (until 2006).Since then I have stuck to Vauxhall...although Mrs Peter drives her Hyundai Siii.I'm now after an Omega Estate with a doggie guard and a Cayman...I would also like a Honda fireblade and 20 pairs of M&S pants.

[Coinery]

wow they hardly look like a coin much no more but veyr old, amazing really

True that they look different from our current coins. That's largely the difference between hand made and machine made coins. Wobbly edges. Parts of the design unclear due to wear or poor manufacture. But I think one of the nice things about coins is the link to the past. Here for example is a vary similar shield design. The first is a shilling of James I from 1624, the second is a pound coin from 2010. Apart from the lis of France being dropped from the design in the 1800s they are pretty similar I reckon.

Sinc

fantastic Richard.It is like comparing a British Leyland to a modern car.

All we do with our cars are service them.I have been lucky from 1984 to have company cars (until 2006).Since then I have stuck to Vauxhall...although Mrs Peter drives her Hyundai Siii.I'm now after an Omega Estate with a doggie guard and a Cayman...I would also like a Honda fireblade and 20 pairs of M&S pants.

Ahh, Fireblades! They were the reported DB's when I was scratching the footrests off my GPZ750 - and you needed quite a few pairs of M&S pants for that task too, I can tell you, what with the yucky long chassis of the GPZ series of that generation (white-line wobble of the greatest fury)!

I never dreamt I'd ever desire a faster bike when I first started squealing my old Kwacker around...how naive of me fortunately I never got one!