Weight of Henry VII halfgroat required

[Rob 3,152]

Does anyone have a Henry VII York Royal Mint halfgroat, and if so how much does it weigh? Spink 2212 and 2213 refer. Thanks.

[Coinery 1,161]

I had a Savage York one at 1.49g if that's any help?

[Rob 3,152]

I had a Savage York one at 1.49g if that's any help?

Thanks Stuart. That is in line with my Abp. Savage 2d which weighs 1.53g and agrees with the data below.

Herein lies the conundrum. Using SCBI 23 as the initial reference, the typical weights of the Lis marked Tower halfgroats and the York Royal Mint halfgroats (which carry the lis mark) are way lower than they should be. According to the indentures of 1485, 1492 and 1503, the weight of a groat was set at 112 and a half to the Tower Pound with the halfgroat, penny etc in proportion. This standard was carried through into the reign of Henry VIII. At 5400 grains to the lb. Tower based on the standard grain weight of 0.064798911g, the official weight of a halfgroat was 1.555g, which agrees pretty well with the observed values for Tower coinage and the episcopal issues. The single example of a Tower 1st period halfgroat is insufficient to say this is normal, but in the context of the other lis marked halfgroats may be important. The weights of the Tower Lis marked and York Royal Mint work out at about 2/3 of the decreed standard. I've just ploughed through SCBI 23 and calculated the average for each issue together with the range of weights in the Ashmolean collection which is listed below. The number of coins in the sample is in brackets after the description, the average weight of the sample in the first column and the weight range in the second. As there are a few hundred coins in the list, the numbers are likely to be statistically significant.

Groats

1st Period, Open Crown

Tower

½ lis & rose / ½ sun rose (3) 2.64g 2.48 – 2.85g

½ lis & rose (6) 3.00g 2.78 – 3.25g

½ lis & rose / lis on rose (1) 3.01g

½ lis & rose / lis on sun & rose (1) 3.05g

Lis on rose, varieties & mules (25) 2.95g 2.61 – 3.15g

Lis (1) 2.97g

Cross fitchee (10) 2.81g 2.36 – 3.27g

Rose (19) 2.92g 2.46 – 3.23g

2nd Period, Arched Crown

Tower

No mark (22) 2.93g 2.59 – 3.23g

Cinquefoil / - (1) 2.76g

Cinquefoil (30) 2.98g 2.55 – 3.21g

Cinque Trans & Mules (8) 2.88g 2.59 – 3.12g

Scallop (43) 2.89g 2.44 – 3.24g

Scallop mules (4) 2.80g 2.70 – 2.91g

Pansy (45) 2.87g 2.41 – 3.31g

Pansy-LH mules (5) 2.87g 2.57 – 3.13g

LH (4) 2.89g 2.77 – 3.17g

LH – Lis issuant mules (3) 3.11g 2.98 – 3.21g

Lis issuant from rose (9) 2.95g 2.60 – 3.23g

Anchor – Lis iss mule (1) 2.46g

Anchor (33) 2.89g 2.45 – 3.25g

-/ Anchor (3) 2.73g 2.02 – 3.18g

GH (36) 2.92g 2.50 – 3.25g

CC – GH mule (1) 2.82g

Cross crosslet (22) 2.95g 2.67 – 3.17g

Halfgroats

1st Period, Open Crown

Tower

Lis on Rose (1) 0.94g

Canterbury

Tun M rev (3) 1.38g 1.25 – 1.54g

2nd Period, Arched Crown

Tower

Scallop (1) 1.29g

Lis (28) 1.00g 0.81 – 1.28g

Canterbury

All types (108) 1.38g 1.08 – 1.59g

York Royal Mint

All types (13) 1.03g 0.89 – 1.15g

York Archiepiscopal Mint

All types (41) 1.39g 1.07 – 1.64g

Penny

1st Period

Tower

Small cross (1) 0.68g

2nd Period, Arched Crown

Tower

Sovereign Penny (21) 0.70g 0.56 – 0.86g

York

All marks (11) 0.71g 0.59 – 0.79g

Durham

S on breast (4) 0.68g 0.61 – 0.78g

Sovereign Type (35) 0.68g 0.55 – 0.85g

Canterbury

Tun (2) 0.71g 0.57 – 0.84g

York Archiepiscopal Mint

Sovereign type (32) 0.71g 0.58 – 0.83g

Halfpenny

1st Period

Tower

All marks 0.39g 0.34 – 0.43g

2nd Period, Arched Crown

Tower

All marks (27) 0.39g 0.30 – 0.54g

Canterbury

All types (5) 0.31g 0.22 – 0.39g

York Archiepiscopal Mint

Single type (1) 0.34g

Where the sample size is large enough to say it is representative such as in the case of groats with the common marks - pansy, cinquefoil etc, the average weight is just under 3.00g which with an allowance for wear and possibly clipping is reasonably close to full. The average weight of the Canterbury and York episcopal issues is identical, and the pennies are within 0.03g average for all issues. The consistency of the correctly weighted issues suggests that mint controls were in place, raising the question as to why the Lis marked halfgroats are not full weight.

Speculatively we should ask ourselves whether they are genuine? Were they struck under a single individual's control? Did someone in high places have their fingers in the till and are there any contemporary records of a trial in relation to fraud at the mint? Why, when the mint records are remarkably complete and detailed for the period are the pyx trial records missing? Was this part of the reason for the employment of Alexander of Brugsal to reform the coinage?

A small deficiency in weight is acceptable due to wear and possible clipping. 35% underweight is no coincidence.

Thoughts gentlemen (and ladies) please.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Rob

[Coinery 1,161]

Speculatively we should ask ourselves whether they are genuine? Were they struck under a single individual's control? Did someone in high places have their fingers in the till and are there any contemporary records of a trial in relation to fraud at the mint? Why, when the mint records are remarkably complete and detailed for the period are the pyx trial records missing? Was this part of the reason for the employment of Alexander of Brugsal to reform the coinage?

A small deficiency in weight is acceptable due to wear and possible clipping. 35% underweight is no coincidence.

Thoughts gentlemen (and ladies) please.

Unfortunately, as you would expect, I'm unable to add any academic weight to your proposals, though I find the reign of Henry VII far more attractive than Henry VIII's! He would likely be the next stopping place of mine if I were to take another monacular step back in time (and probably the Edward pennies).

Anyway, I can't imagine for a moment that they aren't genuine, on account the contemporary public would have picked up on any counterfeit metals very quickly.

If they were silver counterfeits, you'd have to launder an awful lot of underweight silver halfgroats to make it worth the while? Unless...

With the number of individuals involved, a potential conspiracy like this would have to be overseen from the VERY top, wouldn't it?

If there was a Crown involvment, this could possibly explain away the missing pyx documents? The Halfgroat would be the coin to put out underweight if you were to attempt it, with it being the denomination of the peasants, and amongst the coins to wear the fastest, and be clipped the quickest, better disguising any irregularities, maybe????? There would probably be a fall-guy/Bishop if any misdemeanors were exposed but, in the absence of any major public trials documented, we might presume any irregularities went undetected (until Oct 2012 that is )

I often wondered about the great variety of Lis IM's in the opening years of Henry's reign, LIS/sun, LIS/rose, etc. was this intensity of indistinct marks related to any underhand coining?

Do we know the total weight of LIS halfgroats coined? What would the weight potentially saved on the halfgroats be worth? Would it be significant enough to justify the payoffs and risks to a king?

ALL speculation, of course! A really interesting reign, and an interesting observation, Rob.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Coinery

[Rob 3,152]

There is a further consideration which I've just woken up to (dozy b****r). What if they were coined specifically for use in Ireland? I haven't found any records suggesting this, but given the propensity for anything sent to Ireland to be either underweight or debased, this is a distinct possibility. In 1487, the English pound had a de facto value in Ireland of £1.50. Now, this is roughly the ratio of the weights of the lis marked coins in relation to the other marks. I think we could be onto something here.

In 1897 a hoard consisting solely of Henry VII 2nd coinage halfgroats bearing the lis mark was found in Wicklow (BNJ vol.10 p.313-4). All were considerably clipped, but showed no signs of having circulated, i.e. they were fresh from the dies. Clipping was a serious problem in Ireland at this time to the extent that an Act was passed on 15th April 1491 prohibiting the payment or receipt of any clipped or counterfeit currency and later on the import of coin from Ireland above the value of 3s4d was forbidden. This was reiterated in 1497 and 1499. There is a possibility that coining in Ireland was suspended for an unknown length of time during the reign of Henry VII. What if the Lis marked coins were earmarked specifically for Ireland to overcome the problems emanating from this country? The coins in the Ashmolean bearing the lis mark are slightly small, but not 35% small and so the sheet from which the flans were cut must have been thinnner. Below is a selection of Tower lis halfgroats followed by the York Royal Mint attributed coins from the sylloge. At the bottom of the second page are some struck under Abp. Savage. Coin 151 is the lis on rose example, plugged, but only weighing 0.94g. Above this are a few typical lis marked second coinage halfgroats. I don't know if any of the illustrated coins were part of the Wicklow hoard.

Although the lis marked coins are small, they are typically no smaller than the flan size of most Canterbury or York episcopal coins.

Challis (BNJ vol.XL p.97) and Dolley (SNC.1971 p.370-374) both consider the question of Ireland's Tudor coinage, but only in isolation. I think we may well have an English dimension to the coinage in addition to those items struck in Ireland. If all the lis marked coins were clipped down to roughly 2/3 size, then we could comfortably say that they started at full weight, but the size of flan is not dissimilar to those struck elsewhere. Consequently I think it quite likely that they were struck intentionally for Ireland to a reduced weight in accordance with the prevailing exchange rate on the ground, despite the lack of documentary evidence. All good fun.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Rob

[Peter 615]

A 35% skim on 2d worth of silver accounts to 0.7d of silver per coin.A satisfying return I would imagine.

[Rob 3,152]

A 35% skim on 2d worth of silver accounts to 0.7d of silver per coin.A satisfying return I would imagine.

Agreed, but looking at the above, I don't think they were clipped. All the halfgroats tend to be on small flans, whether full weight or not. It is the 3:2 ratio of the pound in Ireland to the English pound that makes me think the coins are actually at the intended weight. Groats and fractions were struck in Ireland at this time with mints at Dublin, Drogheda and Waterford operating at around the time of Henry VII's accession. It didn't help that Lambert Simnel, who was crowned Edward VI in Ireland had coins struck reading EDWARDVS in Dublin. The master of the mint at Waterford was a Lancastrian and so we effectively had a continuation of the War of the Roses being played out. With this backdrop, it would make sense to suspend coinage until the situation was resolved. Accordingly, there is justifiable reasoning to consider the lightweight Lis marked Henry VII halfgroats as part of the solution to this problem.

If you have English 2d coins of 2/3 the weight of those current in that country, they would pass as full value (2d) in Ireland. They would also be unambiguuously Henry's coins. Political, propoganda, probably although without documentary evidence you can't be certain. But having produced them to a lower weight, it would also help explain why there was a lot of effort expended trying to stop their reintroduction into England given they only contained 1.33p.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Rob

[Rob 3,152]

A couple of enquiries has sorted it or so it appears. Lord Stewartby's book talks of Henry VII's expedition to Boulogne in 1492 when approximately 2 million halfgroats were struck and used to pay the soldiers. Being underweight, it is assumed they were trying to offload these in France, but the scheme apparently rebounded as they were declared not to be legal tender in England on their return and had to be exchanged for coin of full weight at face value. So presumably the ploy cost Henry dearly. The find of these coins in Ireland may well be coincidental and due to a soldier returning home, or alternatively an enterprising individual trying to present them at face value in Ireland where the value of silver approximately equalled that in the Irish coinage. That still leaves the question of which coins are behind the proclamation of 1491 which would have preceded the lis marked issue if struck in 1492 and why the order should need to be repeated in 1497 and 1499, though it might refer to Dublin mint coins which were progressively reduced from 45 grains to the groat at the beginning of Edward IV's reign to around 30 grains by the 1490s.

If anyone has a copy of the book I would appreciate a scan of the relevant section which is on page 342(?). Also any indication of the article or document from whence the info was gleaned. Thanks in advance if you can help.

[Accumulator 52]

A couple of enquiries has sorted it or so it appears. Lord Stewartby's book talks of Henry VII's expedition to Boulogne in 1492 when approximately 2 million halfgroats were struck and used to pay the soldiers. Being underweight, it is assumed they were trying to offload these in France, but the scheme apparently rebounded as they were declared not to be legal tender in England on their return and had to be exchanged for coin of full weight at face value. So presumably the ploy cost Henry dearly. The find of these coins in Ireland may well be coincidental and due to a soldier returning home, or alternatively an enterprising individual trying to present them at face value in Ireland where the value of silver approximately equalled that in the Irish coinage. That still leaves the question of which coins are behind the proclamation of 1491 which would have preceded the lis marked issue if struck in 1492 and why the order should need to be repeated in 1497 and 1499, though it might refer to Dublin mint coins which were progressively reduced from 45 grains to the groat at the beginning of Edward IV's reign to around 30 grains by the 1490s.

If anyone has a copy of the book I would appreciate a scan of the relevant section which is on page 342(?). Also any indication of the article or document from whence the info was gleaned. Thanks in advance if you can help.

What a great story!

Does this help Rob:

English Coins 1180 - 1551

[Rob 3,152]

A couple of enquiries has sorted it or so it appears. Lord Stewartby's book talks of Henry VII's expedition to Boulogne in 1492 when approximately 2 million halfgroats were struck and used to pay the soldiers. Being underweight, it is assumed they were trying to offload these in France, but the scheme apparently rebounded as they were declared not to be legal tender in England on their return and had to be exchanged for coin of full weight at face value. So presumably the ploy cost Henry dearly. The find of these coins in Ireland may well be coincidental and due to a soldier returning home, or alternatively an enterprising individual trying to present them at face value in Ireland where the value of silver approximately equalled that in the Irish coinage. That still leaves the question of which coins are behind the proclamation of 1491 which would have preceded the lis marked issue if struck in 1492 and why the order should need to be repeated in 1497 and 1499, though it might refer to Dublin mint coins which were progressively reduced from 45 grains to the groat at the beginning of Edward IV's reign to around 30 grains by the 1490s.

If anyone has a copy of the book I would appreciate a scan of the relevant section which is on page 342(?). Also any indication of the article or document from whence the info was gleaned. Thanks in advance if you can help.

What a great story!

Does this help Rob:

English Coins 1180 - 1551

Thanks, I know I can buy it and it isn't a problem finding copies. Just haven't got around to it yet.