Pillar Emergency Dollar

[Nicholas 51]

How rare is a George III Emergency crown countermarked (oval type) on a Pillar Dollar?

[azda 979]

How rare is Rocking horse shit? Unfortunately without pictures of either it would be hard to tell

[TomGoodheart 401]

How rare is a George III Emergency crown countermarked (oval type) on a Pillar Dollar?

I don't believe they are rare at all. As seen by the number of results when I did a quick search: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&q=countermarked+George+III+dollar&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.d2k&biw=1280&bih=631&wrapid=tlif135781988748610&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=8q_uULinCouY1AW94ICQDw .

What is needed to command better prices is a good clear countermark, ideally on a good clear coin. Worn examples just aren't as attractive to buyers so buy the nicest you can afford (as usual!)

AFAIK, the octagonal countermark is scarcer, but someone else here can no doubt confirm or deny that.

Edited January 10, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[azda 979]

There's also fakes of these Coins, hence one of the reasons for pictures

[Red Riley 2]

How rare is a George III Emergency crown countermarked (oval type) on a Pillar Dollar?

I don't believe they are rare at all. As seen by the number of results when I did a quick search: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&q=countermarked+George+III+dollar&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.d2k&biw=1280&bih=631&wrapid=tlif135781988748610&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=8q_uULinCouY1AW94ICQDw .

What is needed to command better prices is a good clear countermark, ideally on a good clear coin. Worn examples just aren't as attractive to buyers so buy the nicest you can afford (as usual!)

AFAIK, the octagonal countermark is scarcer, but someone else here can no doubt confirm or deny that.

They come up at auction with monotonous regularity and VF-ish coins go for around £350 to £400. They have a bit of a reputation among dealers as being hard to shift.

Yes, you are correct, the later octagonal punched coins are rarer (about 1 in 5 of those offered?) but the bigger punch makes a right mess of the reverse!

[Rob 3,152]

Depends on whether it is the portrait or non-portrait type. The latter are rare in genuine, relatively common in copies. There are copies of both, but the number of genuine examples of the portrait type makes them easier to spot. The problem with shifting them is that the countermark might be EF, but the host is frequently only fine. An as struck example of both host and countermark is definitely worth the money.

[Nicholas 51]

Mexico, pillar type not portrait.

[Nicholas 51]

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u567/2tearsinabucket1/4378B669-2360-495A-84BF-06C0C99013D5-699-00000076AD3A8D7C_zpsd5caca80.jpg

[Nicholas 51]

English Silver Coinage does not list the rarity of the pillar type George III countermarked Dollar like this one.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Nicholas

[Rob 3,152]

I'm not sure about the countermark (which is the bit that gets added to the basic coin to give a x10 uplift in prices). The only one I have is attached. It is slightly different in detail, but not obviously iffy. A better resolution image would help as the existing one gets pixelated.

[Nicholas 51]

Try this image just of the countermark:

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u567/2tearsinabucket1/78FDA9BA-3DD2-4207-A02E-49FA36F24FC6-809-00000082262FC867_zps8203cc5a.jpg

[Peckris 579]

I'm not sure about the countermark (which is the bit that gets added to the basic coin to give a x10 uplift in prices). The only one I have is attached. It is slightly different in detail, but not obviously iffy. A better resolution image would help as the existing one gets pixelated.

Not pixelated at all - and one of the best countermarks I've seen. Nice one!

[Rob 3,152]

Try this image just of the countermark:

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u567/2tearsinabucket1/78FDA9BA-3DD2-4207-A02E-49FA36F24FC6-809-00000082262FC867_zps8203cc5a.jpg

There's a slight difference in the chin and mouth profile, but that could just be the lighting. Looks good to me. Doubtless Seuk will be able to quote chapter and verse about the different copies or false countermarks in existence. I saw one about 9 months ago that could be identified as dodgy because the truncation was straight but the rest looked ok. Presumably the weight and edge are ok?

[Nicholas 51]

Ok. So how often do the pillar type (not portrait ) come up?

[Rob 3,152]

Ok. So how often do the pillar type (not portrait ) come up?

In auctions, probably one every couple of years. There wasn't one in the long run of BOE dollars sold in St. James's 18. They are unquestionably rare, but relatively uncollected.

[Nicholas 51]

Rare because they are uncollected, or uncollected because they are rare?

[Rob 3,152]

It isn't a case of non-portrait pillar dollars being uncollectable in isolation. The BOE issues as a whole are unpopular probably because there is not much variety of design and in the case of the countermarked pieces you would be collecting what is primarily foreign coinage.

For countermarked coins there is a choice of two countermark shapes and two varieties of design, portrait or not. You have a few mints represented but it is the Spanish American equivalent of say lighthouse type or leaves and berries in the wreath. The average collector of British material won't be clued up on Spanish American coinage to differentiate between the types of finer detail. The oddballs such as the French and US currency countermarked pieces are so rare that most would never see an example for sale, let alone in the hand. Then you have the 4R pieces which are suspect as to whether they actually circulated or not, having no proclaimed value unlike the 4s.9d of the pillar dollars. Then you have the 5/- dollars (one basic design) plus the large number of patterns - the latter never as popular as currency. Finally you have the 3/-, 1s.6d & 9d bank tokens, but again only 2 obverses and 2 reverses. You also have the problem that they simply don't fit into a denomination collection with the exception of the 5/- dollar.

As a contrarian, I quite like the diversity these issues provide when compared to standard RM output of the time. Every unfocussed collection should include an example or two.

[Nicholas 51]

Thanks Rob. A really interesting summary of the G3 types. I guess I fall into the not-so-focused collection. Most often I am drawn to English coins where history has broken the norm and has forced an issue to be unrefined/ crude hence my interest in Eng Civil War coinage as well... N

[seuk 85]

Try this image just of the countermark:

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u567/2tearsinabucket1/78FDA9BA-3DD2-4207-A02E-49FA36F24FC6-809-00000082262FC867_zps8203cc5a.jpg

There's a slight difference in the chin and mouth profile, but that could just be the lighting. Looks good to me. Doubtless Seuk will be able to quote chapter and verse about the different copies or false countermarks in existence. I saw one about 9 months ago that could be identified as dodgy because the truncation was straight but the rest looked ok. Presumably the weight and edge are ok?

The countermarks are not really my area though I have a few examples of contemporary counterfeit 8 reales with or without. However there's a great article on the countermarked series by H.E. Manville in BNJ vol. 70, 2000 pp.103-117+plates which can be downloaded here

[Nicholas 51]

Brilliant reference!

[Nicholas 51]

Seuk you're a genius. I now have the provenance of my coin from the Manville article. Plate 10, No 2 looks like very much my coin. Ex Montegazza 62. Spink 113, March1996. So I guess my coin is authentic! Nick

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u567/2tearsinabucket1/95273BA2-16A3-43F0-93D5-6C3110317E07-2014-00000141E2F9D823_zps5df19fa8.jpg

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u567/2tearsinabucket1/02F55567-C2A4-49F0-8664-E240E25ACE13-2014-00000141E40F1B34_zps4d0fb4b9.jpg

[Coinery 1,153]

Good forum, hey!

I for one find the counter-marked coinage really interesting, and would love to have the time and resources to compile a micro-collection of these coins!

G3 is a truly interesting period numismatically, and relatively affordable for everyone! I like it!

[TomGoodheart 401]

Seuk you're a genius. I now have the provenance of my coin from the Manville article. Plate 10, No 2 looks like very much my coin. Ex Montegazza 62. Spink 113, March1996. So I guess my coin is authentic! Nick

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u567/2tearsinabucket1/95273BA2-16A3-43F0-93D5-6C3110317E07-2014-00000141E2F9D823_zps5df19fa8.jpg

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u567/2tearsinabucket1/02F55567-C2A4-49F0-8664-E240E25ACE13-2014-00000141E40F1B34_zps4d0fb4b9.jpg

Brilliant! I always think it's a wonderful bonus to know a bit of provenance about a coin. It's like having a new coin for free! Good work Seuk!

[Peckris 579]

Good forum, hey!

I for one find the counter-marked coinage really interesting, and would love to have the time and resources to compile a micro-collection of these coins!

G3 is a truly interesting period numismatically, and relatively affordable for everyone! I like it!

G3 and G5 would provide me with a really nice collection on their own!

[Peter 615]

I wish this wouldn't happen.It just sets me another interest/goal/task.