Verdigris Spots?

[Sword]

I was looking for a high grade 1911 currency halfcrown and has just brought one form a well known auction house (the one that doesn't do photos and charge low buyers premium). I have never brought anything without photos before and probably won't be doing that again for a very long time! It was described as "unc nice light tone, graded MS64 by PCGS". It arrived yesterday and the coin is pleasing, with very few contact marks, nice light gold tone on the observe. However, there are also some light green spots on the reverse localised mainly on the bottom right quarter of the shield as shown in the photo.

Are these verdigris spots? Are most green spots verdigris? I only collect silver and don't have any knowledge in this area.

I am annoyed with the auction house as it should have been mentioned and am thinking of returning it as a matter of principle. However, it is not a high value coin and I am also fine keeping it and take it as a lesson learnt. What are your opinions?

[DaveG38]

I was looking for a high grade 1911 currency halfcrown and has just brought one form a well known auction house (the one that doesn't do photos and charge low buyers premium). I have never brought anything without photos before and probably won't be doing that again for a very long time! It was described as "unc nice light tone, graded MS64 by PCGS". It arrived yesterday and the coin is pleasing, with very few contact marks, nice light gold tone on the observe. However, there are also some light green spots on the reverse localised mainly on the bottom right quarter of the shield as shown in the photo.

Are these verdigris spots? Are most green spots verdigris? I only collect silver and don't have any knowledge in this area.

I am annoyed with the auction house as it should have been mentioned and am thinking of returning it as a matter of principle. However, it is not a high value coin and I am also fine keeping it and take it as a lesson learnt. What are your opinions?

You are lucky to win a coin. I put in my bid for one I have been looking for for years, at a value well above the estimate, only to find that I haven't won it, even though the winning bid was £60 under my top one. To put it bluntly, I'm Mr Pissedoff.

Edited January 13, 2013 by DaveG38

[pies]

dont look like verdigris to me looks more like a plastic reaction

[Nick]

I was looking for a high grade 1911 currency halfcrown and has just brought one form a well known auction house (the one that doesn't do photos and charge low buyers premium). I have never brought anything without photos before and probably won't be doing that again for a very long time! It was described as "unc nice light tone, graded MS64 by PCGS". It arrived yesterday and the coin is pleasing, with very few contact marks, nice light gold tone on the observe. However, there are also some light green spots on the reverse localised mainly on the bottom right quarter of the shield as shown in the photo.

Are these verdigris spots? Are most green spots verdigris? I only collect silver and don't have any knowledge in this area.

I am annoyed with the auction house as it should have been mentioned and am thinking of returning it as a matter of principle. However, it is not a high value coin and I am also fine keeping it and take it as a lesson learnt. What are your opinions?

I have seen similar spots before. I don't know whether they are verdigris or not, but usually they lift straight off with the tip of a wooden cocktail stick. However, given that your halfcrown is entombed, you don't have that option (if you want to be able to return it, that is). If you do want to keep it, you might crack it out, see if the spots will shift (if they don't easily - leave 'em alone) and then have reslabbed if you so wish.

[Peckris]

You shouldn't be seeing verdigris on a 92.5% silver coin. I agree with the plastic reaction theory, but I'm unsure exactly how you remove that?

[Coinery]

Croydon?

[Nick]

Croydon?

Must be. None of the others could possibly be described as charging a low buyer's premium.

[VickySilver]

I have had excellent luck with acetone (pure 100%) and no colour changes - works pretty well. I don't think it a big thing to crack it out of a holder at 64. If it was 67, it would be. The two TPG's in America guarantee their coins against such damage and will make good but I don't think the value would justify sending it...

[Sword]

I have had excellent luck with acetone (pure 100%) and no colour changes - works pretty well. I don't think it a big thing to crack it out of a holder at 64. If it was 67, it would be. The two TPG's in America guarantee their coins against such damage and will make good but I don't think the value would justify sending it...

If it is definately plastic damage, then it is easiest just returning it, as the coin might just get worse in the slab. I have never tried cracking a slab before (or cleaning a coin with chemical either) and will probably just make a mess of things with my current luck! (what are the chances of getting plastic damage on a PCGS slabbed coin?)

I am aware that their grading at the high end can be somewhat "optimistic" according to the previous reviews on the forum. However, I thought that I might give them a try due to the very low buyers' premium.

[Coinery]

I have had excellent luck with acetone (pure 100%) and no colour changes - works pretty well. I don't think it a big thing to crack it out of a holder at 64. If it was 67, it would be. The two TPG's in America guarantee their coins against such damage and will make good but I don't think the value would justify sending it...

If it is definately plastic damage, then it is easiest just returning it, as the coin might just get worse in the slab. I have never tried cracking a slab before (or cleaning a coin with chemical either) and will probably just make a mess of things with my current luck! (what are the chances of getting plastic damage on a PCGS slabbed coin?)

I am aware that their grading at the high end can be somewhat "optimistic" according to the previous reviews on the forum. However, I thought that I might give them a try due to the very low buyers' premium.

I bought about 4 coins blind from there...2 uncs barely made EF, and the other two were 1/2 grade lower.

Great auction if you are attending but, personally, I would'nt ever blind bid with them again!

[VickySilver]

Yes, likely a wiser move rather than the "itchy fingers" I would have to "fix it".

PCGS of Europe for a try? They may also be at some coin fairs but you might have to contact them.

Do let us how this all works out.

BTW, can you show the rest of the coin?

[Sword]

I have had excellent luck with acetone (pure 100%) and no colour changes - works pretty well. I don't think it a big thing to crack it out of a holder at 64. If it was 67, it would be. The two TPG's in America guarantee their coins against such damage and will make good but I don't think the value would justify sending it...

If it is definately plastic damage, then it is easiest just returning it, as the coin might just get worse in the slab. I have never tried cracking a slab before (or cleaning a coin with chemical either) and will probably just make a mess of things with my current luck! (what are the chances of getting plastic damage on a PCGS slabbed coin?)

I am aware that their grading at the high end can be somewhat "optimistic" according to the previous reviews on the forum. However, I thought that I might give them a try due to the very low buyers' premium.

I bought about 4 coins blind from there...2 uncs barely made EF, and the other two were 1/2 grade lower.

Great auction if you are attending but, personally, I would'nt ever blind bid with them again!

Charging low premium by cutting down overheads like photos and catalouges is a great concept in theory. But if the grades are not accurate, then it doesn't do anyone any favours and will surely cost them business.

[Sword]

Yes, likely a wiser move rather than the "itchy fingers" I would have to "fix it".

PCGS of Europe for a try? They may also be at some coin fairs but you might have to contact them.

Do let us how this all works out.

BTW, can you show the rest of the coin?

Here are the photos. It is not looking too bad now but it might get worse with time. I haven't paid for it yet so I guess I will be able to return it. (How many auction houses would send the goods to a new buyer before they get paid?) It is not a high value coin and so it is either returning it or keeping it as it is for me.

[azda]

You would'nt buy blind on ebay, so why buy blind in another auction. A bit like Russian roulette if you ask me, you never know what you're going to get. Verd is copper disease, not silver, so i'd also go with the plastic reaction. It should make the slab buyers worried, especially the top end slab buyers of silver

[Sword]

You would'nt buy blind on ebay, so why buy blind in another auction. A bit like Russian roulette if you ask me, you never know what you're going to get. Verd is copper disease, not silver, so i'd also go with the plastic reaction. It should make the slab buyers worried, especially the top end slab buyers of silver

No one buy blind from strangers in ebay but I thought the risk is significantly lower from an established auction house...

[azda]

You would'nt buy blind on ebay, so why buy blind in another auction. A bit like Russian roulette if you ask me, you never know what you're going to get. Verd is copper disease, not silver, so i'd also go with the plastic reaction. It should make the slab buyers worried, especially the top end slab buyers of silver

No one buy blind from strangers in ebay but I thought the risk is significantly lower from an established auction house...

Without pictures or being at the auction house itself, and as was stated by coinery above, the grading is a little generous, so as i said, why would anyone buy blind. Also if it's your first time buying from ANY auction house, then in theory said auction house is also a stranger, no?

There's overgrading in a lot of auction houses, having the ability to grade yourself gives you the choice of where your bid goes, having nothing at all to go by is Russian Roulette of the highest order no matter which auction house it is.

Edited January 13, 2013 by azda

[Sword]

You would'nt buy blind on ebay, so why buy blind in another auction. A bit like Russian roulette if you ask me, you never know what you're going to get. Verd is copper disease, not silver, so i'd also go with the plastic reaction. It should make the slab buyers worried, especially the top end slab buyers of silver

No one buy blind from strangers in ebay but I thought the risk is significantly lower from an established auction house...

Without pictures or being at the auction house itself, and as was stated by coinery above, the grading is a little generous, so as i said, why would anyone buy blind. Also if it's your first time buying from ANY auction house, then in theory said auction house is also a stranger, no?

There's overgrading in a lot of auction houses, having the ability to grade yourself gives you the choice of where your bid goes, having nothing at all to go by is Russian Roulette of the highest order no matter which auction house it is.

Azda, I think leaving an absentee bid is always a bit of a risk. The photos you normally get do not often show hairlines and might sometimes hide much worse defects. A scan doesn't show the tone and might not even be able to tell you if a coin has been previously cleaned. I think most of us have made disappointing purchases by absentee biding.

Hence, you always have to rely to some extent on the auction houses' descriptions. Work usually prevent me from attending any auction in person. I do grade coins (reasonably accurately I hope) and take the lower of the two grades (mine and the auction house's) when I decide on a bid.

On this occasion (the first time I have bid blind), I was tempted to some extent to try an auction house with a low buyer's permium. The item was not high value and I knew it was returnable if there are issues. Hence it wasn't really much of a risk but just annoyance when things go wrong.

[VickySilver]

I am convinced that the "plastic changes/PVC" are due to factors prior to encapsulation and not the plastic of the "tomb" itself.

What is that term for the flame test again (think it's naturally a German one)?

[Sword]

I am convinced that the "plastic changes/PVC" are due to factors prior to encapsulation and not the plastic of the "tomb" itself.

What is that term for the flame test again (think it's naturally a German one)?

I don't think anyone would remotely suggest that the plastic of slabs can react with coins.

[Coinery]

I am convinced that the "plastic changes/PVC" are due to factors prior to encapsulation and not the plastic of the "tomb" itself.

What is that term for the flame test again (think it's naturally a German one)?

I don't think anyone would remotely suggest that the plastic of slabs can react with coins.

'Factors prior to encapsulation' is the thing I fear the most, especially with coins you haven't submitted yourself!

[Red Riley]

Doesn't even look like a plastic reaction as in the field rather than the design which would not have been in contact with the plastic. Might just be some random gunk which may well come off with a wash.

[Peckris]

Doesn't even look like a plastic reaction as in the field rather than the design which would not have been in contact with the plastic. Might just be some random gunk which may well come off with a wash.

Unfortunately, there's a rather bulky 'plastic reaction' surrounding the entire coin which would have to be removed first

[Sword]

I have had excellent luck with acetone (pure 100%) and no colour changes - works pretty well. I don't think it a big thing to crack it out of a holder at 64. If it was 67, it would be. The two TPG's in America guarantee their coins against such damage and will make good but I don't think the value would justify sending it...

Just out of interest, I have just come across an article on PCGS Spot removal service on http://news.coinupdate.com/pcgs-spot-removal-service-0701/

According to the second post from the bottom (which might or might not be accurate), PCGS now charges $50 in fees to remove PVC spots on slabbed coins but they used to do it for free.

[VickySilver]

Sword I'd check with them on that.

[1949threepence]

You would'nt buy blind on ebay, so why buy blind in another auction. A bit like Russian roulette if you ask me, you never know what you're going to get. Verd is copper disease, not silver, so i'd also go with the plastic reaction. It should make the slab buyers worried, especially the top end slab buyers of silver

Yes, I always thought that verd was a copper, bronze & nickel brass issue, rather than a silver one.

Had a strange experience with my uncirculated 1919 shilling a few months back. Took one of the shilling drawers from my cabinet, and noticed what ~ for all the world ~ looked like green verd at the base of the 1919 shilling reverse. On removing the shilling, and very lightly rubbing the base of the shilling, the green material just fell away as though it was powder. Obviously it wasn't verd, but quite what the hell it actually was, I've absolutely no idea. No residue was left behiind.

Incidentally, talking about slabs, does anybody know if any form of spontaneous or continued deterioration, can occur in the slab ? Or does the act of slabbing arrest the action of any deleterious outside agent already on the coin ? Probably sounds a naive, simplistic question, but I'm no metallurgist.