CGS - A customer-facing business?

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Apart from a muppet why slab anything under say £500.If you don't know what you are buying DON'T BUY IT.

I have never met a 'perfect' person before and I do not think I have done so through this forum.

I actually find your calling me a muppet very offensive - because that is what you have just done with your post.

[Bill Pugsley 0]

This is an interesting discussion ......

As I said in a different thread, I recently came back to this hobby after a 15 year hiatus due to work and being transferred to the USA. I have a small collection of sixpences none of which are slabbed. They are kept in Leuchtterm trays in my safe which I find very convenient in that they do not take up a lot of space and I have easy access to enjoy them. I should also add that I buy for my own enjoyment and I have never sold a coin.

So, the question is ... to slab or not to slab?

And what should I do with slabbed coins that I do buy? Do I break the slab and integrate the coin with the rest of my collection, do I keep the slab and start up a parallel storage system or do I have all my coins slabbed (I have 84 Victoria sixpences alone).

My gut feeling is to break the slab. and integrate coins into my trays. But would appreciate any other points of view.

I used to use trays and small capsules (you could get a lot of small coins in one tray) but moved to graded coins for reasons I have outlined elsewhere. I have recently been shown trays that hold up to eight slabbed coins (not sure if they hold all size slabs) and they look really nice. If you are happy with the way you store and display your coins - stay with it!

[Bill Pugsley 0]

A bit of an anecdote, but for interest sake several years ago I got an example of each of the TPGs "work" of a particular issue: the 1935 specimen crown in NGC65, PCGS65 and CGS85. I'm going to challenge my skills if people are still interested by the weekend and picture them. Won't give away which I prefer so maybe a poll??

I checked out the CGS list for your 1935 Crown (finest known) and I would be happy to pay £100 for it. However, you has properly pointed out that it may have verdigris and you are unsure whether it was cleaned. I recommend you email CGS and tell them of your concerns and see what they have to say (it will take a few days to get an answer).

All the best - Bill

[Peter 615]

Apart from a muppet why slab anything under say £500.If you don't know what you are buying DON'T BUY IT.

I have never met a 'perfect' person before and I do not think I have done so through this forum.

I actually find your calling me a muppet very offensive - because that is what you have just done with your post.

No offence made.It wasn't intended for you.

Anyone who can afford over £20k in slabbing his collection has made their decision in how they want to collect.Each to their own.

[1949threepence 3,367]

I've just spent well over an hour reading through the thread from the point where I last left it, and I have to say it has been an incredibly interesting and informative read. Firstly, I take my hat off to Bill for courteously and authoritatively replying to every query in great detail. Thanks for an all too rare quality.

Secondly though, I was intrigued by the phrase "perception is truth" as it relates to customer service. Whilst I agree that the phrase is not accurate in reality, it does usually sum up the ultimate philosophy of the enthusiastic enquirer feeling rejected by the bloke on the other end of the line, who has all the qualities of a wet weekend in Clacton. His enthusiasm will be dampened, usually sufficiently to put him off from ever returning with another attempt to the same organisation.

So in that sense, I am very pleased to hear that a major customer service issue will be addressed in the near future. It needs to be. I personally cannot stress enough, the importance of this first contact between customer and organisation, and the need for it to be a positive, harmonious and warm exchange.

With regard to the apparent intimacy between CGS and London Coins, I can definitely see that the relationship is a wholly worthwhile one, as each will undoubtedly gain from the other. I'd only say ~ for what its worth as I'm very far from an expert on these matters ~ that it's probably best to try and portray an image as far removed from suspicion of anything being "fixed" as possible. Just my two pennuth on that.

Edited March 4, 2013 by 1949threepence

[Peckris 579]

I've just spent well over an hour reading through the thread from the point where I last left it, and I have to say it has been an incredibly interesting and informative read. Firstly, I take my hat off to Bill for courteously and authoritatively replying to every query in great detail. Thanks for an all too rare quality.

Secondly though, I was intrigued by the phrase "perception is truth" as it relates to customer service. Whilst I agree that the phrase is not accurate in reality, it does usually sum up the ultimate philosophy of the enthusiastic enquirer feeling rejected by the bloke on the other end of the line, who has all the qualities of a wet weekend in Clacton. His enthusiasm will be dampened, usually sufficiently to put him off from ever returning with another attempt to the same organisation.

So in that sense, I am very pleased to hear that a major customer service issue will be addressed in the near future. It needs to be. I personally cannot stress enough, the importance of this first contact between customer and organisation, and the need for it to be a positive, harmonious and warm exchange.

With regard to the apparent intimacy between CGS and London Coins, I can definitely see that the relationship is a wholly worthwhile one, as each will undoubtedly gain from the other. I'd only say ~ for what its worth as I'm very far from an expert on these matters ~ that it's probably best to try and portray an image as far removed from suspicion of anything being "fixed" as possible. Just my two pennuth on that.

Not quite "every" - I'm still waiting for a reply to mine, but I may have a long wait...

[Accumulator 52]

I've just spent well over an hour reading through the thread from the point where I last left it, and I have to say it has been an incredibly interesting and informative read. Firstly, I take my hat off to Bill for courteously and authoritatively replying to every query in great detail. Thanks for an all too rare quality.

Secondly though, I was intrigued by the phrase "perception is truth" as it relates to customer service. Whilst I agree that the phrase is not accurate in reality, it does usually sum up the ultimate philosophy of the enthusiastic enquirer feeling rejected by the bloke on the other end of the line, who has all the qualities of a wet weekend in Clacton. His enthusiasm will be dampened, usually sufficiently to put him off from ever returning with another attempt to the same organisation.

So in that sense, I am very pleased to hear that a major customer service issue will be addressed in the near future. It needs to be. I personally cannot stress enough, the importance of this first contact between customer and organisation, and the need for it to be a positive, harmonious and warm exchange.

With regard to the apparent intimacy between CGS and London Coins, I can definitely see that the relationship is a wholly worthwhile one, as each will undoubtedly gain from the other. I'd only say ~ for what its worth as I'm very far from an expert on these matters ~ that it's probably best to try and portray an image as far removed from suspicion of anything being "fixed" as possible. Just my two pennuth on that.

I second that. Whatever our individual views on slabbing, Bill, you have come on here and argued your case in a most thorough and courteous manner.

[1949threepence 3,367]

I've just spent well over an hour reading through the thread from the point where I last left it, and I have to say it has been an incredibly interesting and informative read. Firstly, I take my hat off to Bill for courteously and authoritatively replying to every query in great detail. Thanks for an all too rare quality.

Secondly though, I was intrigued by the phrase "perception is truth" as it relates to customer service. Whilst I agree that the phrase is not accurate in reality, it does usually sum up the ultimate philosophy of the enthusiastic enquirer feeling rejected by the bloke on the other end of the line, who has all the qualities of a wet weekend in Clacton. His enthusiasm will be dampened, usually sufficiently to put him off from ever returning with another attempt to the same organisation.

So in that sense, I am very pleased to hear that a major customer service issue will be addressed in the near future. It needs to be. I personally cannot stress enough, the importance of this first contact between customer and organisation, and the need for it to be a positive, harmonious and warm exchange.

With regard to the apparent intimacy between CGS and London Coins, I can definitely see that the relationship is a wholly worthwhile one, as each will undoubtedly gain from the other. I'd only say ~ for what its worth as I'm very far from an expert on these matters ~ that it's probably best to try and portray an image as far removed from suspicion of anything being "fixed" as possible. Just my two pennuth on that.

Not quite "every" - I'm still waiting for a reply to mine, but I may have a long wait...

Are you referring to what I think you are, Peck ~ namely the query about being able to remove a coin from a slab, and re-insert it at a later date, with the certification still intact and available, being capable of cross referencing a bar code to a central record and detailed photo ? That one ?

If so, I too would be interested in Bill's views on that possibility, as I drew a blank when I mentioned it in an earlier post.

[Coinery 1,153]

I've just spent well over an hour reading through the thread from the point where I last left it, and I have to say it has been an incredibly interesting and informative read. Firstly, I take my hat off to Bill for courteously and authoritatively replying to every query in great detail. Thanks for an all too rare quality.

Secondly though, I was intrigued by the phrase "perception is truth" as it relates to customer service. Whilst I agree that the phrase is not accurate in reality, it does usually sum up the ultimate philosophy of the enthusiastic enquirer feeling rejected by the bloke on the other end of the line, who has all the qualities of a wet weekend in Clacton. His enthusiasm will be dampened, usually sufficiently to put him off from ever returning with another attempt to the same organisation.

So in that sense, I am very pleased to hear that a major customer service issue will be addressed in the near future. It needs to be. I personally cannot stress enough, the importance of this first contact between customer and organisation, and the need for it to be a positive, harmonious and warm exchange.

With regard to the apparent intimacy between CGS and London Coins, I can definitely see that the relationship is a wholly worthwhile one, as each will undoubtedly gain from the other. I'd only say ~ for what its worth as I'm very far from an expert on these matters ~ that it's probably best to try and portray an image as far removed from suspicion of anything being "fixed" as possible. Just my two pennuth on that.

I second that. Whatever our individual views on slabbing, Bill, you have come on here and argued your case in a most thorough and courteous manner.

Hear, hear! I'm extremely grateful for your courtesy, and gigantian input into this thread! I cannot say that I am suddenly going to start slabbing all my shillings, but it shines through that you are passionate about coins...and it's passion that counts in this the pastime of kings!

[jaggy 528]

I've just spent well over an hour reading through the thread from the point where I last left it, and I have to say it has been an incredibly interesting and informative read. Firstly, I take my hat off to Bill for courteously and authoritatively replying to every query in great detail. Thanks for an all too rare quality.

Secondly though, I was intrigued by the phrase "perception is truth" as it relates to customer service. Whilst I agree that the phrase is not accurate in reality, it does usually sum up the ultimate philosophy of the enthusiastic enquirer feeling rejected by the bloke on the other end of the line, who has all the qualities of a wet weekend in Clacton. His enthusiasm will be dampened, usually sufficiently to put him off from ever returning with another attempt to the same organisation.

So in that sense, I am very pleased to hear that a major customer service issue will be addressed in the near future. It needs to be. I personally cannot stress enough, the importance of this first contact between customer and organisation, and the need for it to be a positive, harmonious and warm exchange.

With regard to the apparent intimacy between CGS and London Coins, I can definitely see that the relationship is a wholly worthwhile one, as each will undoubtedly gain from the other. I'd only say ~ for what its worth as I'm very far from an expert on these matters ~ that it's probably best to try and portray an image as far removed from suspicion of anything being "fixed" as possible. Just my two pennuth on that.

Just wish to add my own vote of appreciation to Bill as well as to all the others who contributed in a positive way to the discussion.

[Colin88 54]

What my comment "perception, is truth" lacked, concerning Customer Service and the way that I , as a spending customer are treated was that it should have been more subjective....it should have read "my perception, is my truth"....and that is the truth.

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Apart from a muppet why slab anything under say £500.If you don't know what you are buying DON'T BUY IT.

I have never met a 'perfect' person before and I do not think I have done so through this forum.

I actually find your calling me a muppet very offensive - because that is what you have just done with your post.

No offence made.It wasn't intended for you.

Anyone who can afford over £20k in slabbing his collection has made their decision in how they want to collect.Each to their own.

Think of the nice 1905 half crowns you could buy with over £24,000 (many coins cost £19.99 and some even more to get graded)!

To try and add some balance to the expenditure some of the results of grading by CGS have to me been spectacular - not so much the grade achieved (although it helps if it is high) but the new varieties that they have identified in their process (yes, and they have got some wrong as well as previously noted). Anyone looking at the site may be interested to inspect the 1953 series which now has seven new types of the proof that are unrecorded in any of the traditional catalogues (farthing, halfpenny, threepence, sixpence, two one shillings, florin {this last rejected though}). The same set had a mule penny, one of three known proof halfcrowns of a new type and a VIP Proof Crown. Apart from the penny which was a fairly obvious variety, all the other coins could easily be mistaken for normal proofs with a modest value. Now I am not suggesting that the value of this set matches the cost of grading but if it ever came to selling it I am sure it would attract some buyers.

Other coin collectors or dealers may have spotted the new types. Perhaps they would (will) be written up in Coin News or some other publication/website. What I do know is they are now on the CGS site with pictures so anyone registered to the site can compare them against their own coins.

[Bill Pugsley 0]

I've just spent well over an hour reading through the thread from the point where I last left it, and I have to say it has been an incredibly interesting and informative read. Firstly, I take my hat off to Bill for courteously and authoritatively replying to every query in great detail. Thanks for an all too rare quality.

Secondly though, I was intrigued by the phrase "perception is truth" as it relates to customer service. Whilst I agree that the phrase is not accurate in reality, it does usually sum up the ultimate philosophy of the enthusiastic enquirer feeling rejected by the bloke on the other end of the line, who has all the qualities of a wet weekend in Clacton. His enthusiasm will be dampened, usually sufficiently to put him off from ever returning with another attempt to the same organisation.

So in that sense, I am very pleased to hear that a major customer service issue will be addressed in the near future. It needs to be. I personally cannot stress enough, the importance of this first contact between customer and organisation, and the need for it to be a positive, harmonious and warm exchange.

With regard to the apparent intimacy between CGS and London Coins, I can definitely see that the relationship is a wholly worthwhile one, as each will undoubtedly gain from the other. I'd only say ~ for what its worth as I'm very far from an expert on these matters ~ that it's probably best to try and portray an image as far removed from suspicion of anything being "fixed" as possible. Just my two pennuth on that.

Not quite "every" - I'm still waiting for a reply to mine, but I may have a long wait...

Are you referring to what I think you are, Peck ~ namely the query about being able to remove a coin from a slab, and re-insert it at a later date, with the certification still intact and available, being capable of cross referencing a bar code to a central record and detailed photo ? That one ?

If so, I too would be interested in Bill's views on that possibility, as I drew a blank when I mentioned it in an earlier post.

So much for a quiet day getting on with my day job (not a complaint, merely an observation - truth be told I prefer any subject related to coins!).

Sorry I did not comment on your earlier post (so many threads - and I missed yours - must be an 'my age' thing).

It would be great if a way could be found to allow coins to be removed and totally accessible to a collector and then subsequently re-installable in the original graded capsule. That way I believe both sides of the divide may be satisfied with a service. With advances in technology it should be possible develop a process to accurately record all aspects of a coin as both a three dimensional image and information on mass etc (computer storage costs are low thankfully because such information could occupy as much as a gigabyte per coin). Conceivably such a process could also be used to grade coins when a sufficient number had been recorded of a specific type for comparison purposes (although I still believe in the human perception of 'eye appeal'). Technology continues to improve in leaps and bounds so with the right effort and a lot of money, a solution could be found. Therein lies the problem - a lot of money. Some of the machines available today that could be used to undertake the work are a hefty capital investment- then there is the software design, development and testing costs. My guesstimate would be a minimum of half a million pounds before an automated solution could be available (my background is software development and delivery - something I accidently fell into in 1970 - yes they had computers then, the size of a room and with less power than today's i-Phone!).

OK, no one is yet spending that kind of money so using the tools we have today - we take a good picture, assess the grade (I would suggest as CGS do or some comparable process), perhaps note any issues with the coin and attach them to the description. However, sometime later the coin is then reinserted back into the capsule by its owner, perhaps being offered for sale. The buyer can always check the repository for information on the coin and check it against the original record. What if the buyer suggests the coin is different or suffered damage (I recently heard of a sale of a gold £5.00 to a buyer in Japan who returned a coin having rejected the sale - the coin returned was not the one sent and it took a while for the seller to resolve the matter - which can illustrate problems when one party may not be totally honest). In a worst case the coin will need to go to arbitration - and that could cost. Maybe, if the owner passed the coin and slab back to the service provider they could verify that it was the same as originally processed but there would certainly be a cost for that service.

I understand Victorians used to lacquer their coins in collections to preserve their condition. Perhaps the collecting community may accept something similar for the future (there must be something better than lacquer around today). Maybe graded coins could end up with microscopic bar codes (which perforce may damage the original coin - even if only at a micron level), perhaps an indelible marker only viewable through fluorescent light (might assist recovery of stolen goods post robberies) but again we are 'affecting the coin'.

I believe I noted elsewhere I had bought a coin that had previously been in a CGS graded capsule (it had its original 'ticket') that I sent to CGS for grading. They charged the £11.99 and it came back with a lower grade than the original ticket (AU78 rather than UNC80). I have no doubt that the owner who removed it from a capsule handled it well and kept it safe - yet I cannot complain about the variance in grade from the earlier grading to the new grading. What would have worried me is if the coin had been graded the second time as UNC82 or higher as that would suggest the coin had been improved when out of its capsule.

£11.99 is not a cheap cost for getting a coin graded but it represents good value to me. More valuable coins cost more (prices are on the CGS web site). I used to buy graded coins and remove them from the slabs (dealers and auctioneers often offer this service to buyers). If (as I did) I wanted to get my coins graded again I simply resubmitted them and paid the price. Being candid if the price doubles or triples to be commensurate with US Grading Prices then I may well not submit lower value coins but instead opt for the EVERLAST slabs (also noted elsewhere) - even though they are not the same size as CGS slabs.

Maybe in time someone will make the investment I outlined above and we could end up with the best of both worlds. Unfortunately I do not see that happening any time soon (ideas outlined above are my Intellectual Property so if they do, I want a piece of the action!) - but I like the idea.

I suspect not the response we would all like but best I can offer.

All the best

Bill

[Bill Pugsley 0]

I've just spent well over an hour reading through the thread from the point where I last left it, and I have to say it has been an incredibly interesting and informative read. Firstly, I take my hat off to Bill for courteously and authoritatively replying to every query in great detail. Thanks for an all too rare quality.

Secondly though, I was intrigued by the phrase "perception is truth" as it relates to customer service. Whilst I agree that the phrase is not accurate in reality, it does usually sum up the ultimate philosophy of the enthusiastic enquirer feeling rejected by the bloke on the other end of the line, who has all the qualities of a wet weekend in Clacton. His enthusiasm will be dampened, usually sufficiently to put him off from ever returning with another attempt to the same organisation.

So in that sense, I am very pleased to hear that a major customer service issue will be addressed in the near future. It needs to be. I personally cannot stress enough, the importance of this first contact between customer and organisation, and the need for it to be a positive, harmonious and warm exchange.

With regard to the apparent intimacy between CGS and London Coins, I can definitely see that the relationship is a wholly worthwhile one, as each will undoubtedly gain from the other. I'd only say ~ for what its worth as I'm very far from an expert on these matters ~ that it's probably best to try and portray an image as far removed from suspicion of anything being "fixed" as possible. Just my two pennuth on that.

Not quite "every" - I'm still waiting for a reply to mine, but I may have a long wait...

Are you referring to what I think you are, Peck ~ namely the query about being able to remove a coin from a slab, and re-insert it at a later date, with the certification still intact and available, being capable of cross referencing a bar code to a central record and detailed photo ? That one ?

If so, I too would be interested in Bill's views on that possibility, as I drew a blank when I mentioned it in an earlier post.

So much for a quiet day getting on with my day job (not a complaint, merely an observation - truth be told I prefer any subject related to coins!).

Sorry I did not comment on your earlier post (so many threads - and I missed yours - must be an 'my age' thing).

It would be great if a way could be found to allow coins to be removed and totally accessible to a collector and then subsequently re-installable in the original graded capsule. That way I believe both sides of the divide may be satisfied with a service. With advances in technology it should be possible develop a process to accurately record all aspects of a coin as both a three dimensional image and information on mass etc (computer storage costs are low thankfully because such information could occupy as much as a gigabyte per coin). Conceivably such a process could also be used to grade coins when a sufficient number had been recorded of a specific type for comparison purposes (although I still believe in the human perception of 'eye appeal'). Technology continues to improve in leaps and bounds so with the right effort and a lot of money, a solution could be found. Therein lies the problem - a lot of money. Some of the machines available today that could be used to undertake the work are a hefty capital investment- then there is the software design, development and testing costs. My guesstimate would be a minimum of half a million pounds before an automated solution could be available (my background is software development and delivery - something I accidently fell into in 1970 - yes they had computers then, the size of a room and with less power than today's i-Phone!).

OK, no one is yet spending that kind of money so using the tools we have today - we take a good picture, assess the grade (I would suggest as CGS do or some comparable process), perhaps note any issues with the coin and attach them to the description. However, sometime later the coin is then reinserted back into the capsule by its owner, perhaps being offered for sale. The buyer can always check the repository for information on the coin and check it against the original record. What if the buyer suggests the coin is different or suffered damage (I recently heard of a sale of a gold £5.00 to a buyer in Japan who returned a coin having rejected the sale - the coin returned was not the one sent and it took a while for the seller to resolve the matter - which can illustrate problems when one party may not be totally honest). In a worst case the coin will need to go to arbitration - and that could cost. Maybe, if the owner passed the coin and slab back to the service provider they could verify that it was the same as originally processed but there would certainly be a cost for that service.

I understand Victorians used to lacquer their coins in collections to preserve their condition. Perhaps the collecting community may accept something similar for the future (there must be something better than lacquer around today). Maybe graded coins could end up with microscopic bar codes (which perforce may damage the original coin - even if only at a micron level), perhaps an indelible marker only viewable through fluorescent light (might assist recovery of stolen goods post robberies) but again we are 'affecting the coin'.

I believe I noted elsewhere I had bought a coin that had previously been in a CGS graded capsule (it had its original 'ticket') that I sent to CGS for grading. They charged the £11.99 and it came back with a lower grade than the original ticket (AU78 rather than UNC80). I have no doubt that the owner who removed it from a capsule handled it well and kept it safe - yet I cannot complain about the variance in grade from the earlier grading to the new grading. What would have worried me is if the coin had been graded the second time as UNC82 or higher as that would suggest the coin had been improved when out of its capsule.

£11.99 is not a cheap cost for getting a coin graded but it represents good value to me. More valuable coins cost more (prices are on the CGS web site). I used to buy graded coins and remove them from the slabs (dealers and auctioneers often offer this service to buyers). If (as I did) I wanted to get my coins graded again I simply resubmitted them and paid the price. Being candid if the price doubles or triples to be commensurate with US Grading Prices then I may well not submit lower value coins but instead opt for the EVERLAST slabs (also noted elsewhere) - even though they are not the same size as CGS slabs.

Maybe in time someone will make the investment I outlined above and we could end up with the best of both worlds. Unfortunately I do not see that happening any time soon (ideas outlined above are my Intellectual Property so if they do, I want a piece of the action!) - but I like the idea.

I suspect not the response we would all like but best I can offer.

All the best

Bill

I have no idea what a 'wet weekend in Clacton' would be like (let alone a sunny one). Not a place I remember visiting but I understand the symbolism.

In this day and age Customer Service can make the difference between success and failure.

If the response from CGS when I raised the matter had been a 'so what' I would have been seriously troubled. In a worst case Colin888 should have been asked for his number and a return call made if his questions could not have been properly dealt with by the person answering the telephone.

Colin888 was let down and feels that he has no interest in doing business with CGS. I loathe a well known British Telecommunication provider and avoid doing business with them if I can (even moving business accounts from them) because of persistent appalling service - yet when their telephone/broadband service operates it is pretty damn good. I am fortunate there are alternative suppliers who are less expensive generally than the one I loathe - so I have a choice. In the case of coin grading I believe CGS is the best for British (Irish and Strait Settlements) coins that I have an interest in. I also think they offer exceptional value. I also want them to survive and grow - hence my taking the time to try and respond on matters.

There is still the matter of the guarantee (that I would like to see on the website) which I will be chasing later this week and hope to report on next week at the latest.

Bill

[DaveG38 405]

Apart from a muppet why slab anything under say £500.If you don't know what you are buying DON'T BUY IT.

I have never met a 'perfect' person before and I do not think I have done so through this forum.

I actually find your calling me a muppet very offensive - because that is what you have just done with your post.

No offence made.It wasn't intended for you.

Anyone who can afford over £20k in slabbing his collection has made their decision in how they want to collect.Each to their own.

Think of the nice 1905 half crowns you could buy with over £24,000 (many coins cost £19.99 and some even more to get graded)!

To try and add some balance to the expenditure some of the results of grading by CGS have to me been spectacular - not so much the grade achieved (although it helps if it is high) but the new varieties that they have identified in their process (yes, and they have got some wrong as well as previously noted). Anyone looking at the site may be interested to inspect the 1953 series which now has seven new types of the proof that are unrecorded in any of the traditional catalogues (farthing, halfpenny, threepence, sixpence, two one shillings, florin {this last rejected though}). The same set had a mule penny, one of three known proof halfcrowns of a new type and a VIP Proof Crown. Apart from the penny which was a fairly obvious variety, all the other coins could easily be mistaken for normal proofs with a modest value. Now I am not suggesting that the value of this set matches the cost of grading but if it ever came to selling it I am sure it would attract some buyers.

Other coin collectors or dealers may have spotted the new types. Perhaps they would (will) be written up in Coin News or some other publication/website. What I do know is they are now on the CGS site with pictures so anyone registered to the site can compare them against their own coins.

Bill,

Sorry to rain on your parade, but all the varieties shown on their website are known and already described in numismatic literature - at the risk of blowing my own trumpet, I describe all of the currency and standard proof types in my two books on 20thC bronze and silver. Indeed, there are a few minor types I describe that they don't. Having said this, you are quite right that most of these types are not described in the standard catalogues e.g. Spink etc.

[Peckris 579]

I've just spent well over an hour reading through the thread from the point where I last left it, and I have to say it has been an incredibly interesting and informative read. Firstly, I take my hat off to Bill for courteously and authoritatively replying to every query in great detail. Thanks for an all too rare quality.

Secondly though, I was intrigued by the phrase "perception is truth" as it relates to customer service. Whilst I agree that the phrase is not accurate in reality, it does usually sum up the ultimate philosophy of the enthusiastic enquirer feeling rejected by the bloke on the other end of the line, who has all the qualities of a wet weekend in Clacton. His enthusiasm will be dampened, usually sufficiently to put him off from ever returning with another attempt to the same organisation.

So in that sense, I am very pleased to hear that a major customer service issue will be addressed in the near future. It needs to be. I personally cannot stress enough, the importance of this first contact between customer and organisation, and the need for it to be a positive, harmonious and warm exchange.

With regard to the apparent intimacy between CGS and London Coins, I can definitely see that the relationship is a wholly worthwhile one, as each will undoubtedly gain from the other. I'd only say ~ for what its worth as I'm very far from an expert on these matters ~ that it's probably best to try and portray an image as far removed from suspicion of anything being "fixed" as possible. Just my two pennuth on that.

Not quite "every" - I'm still waiting for a reply to mine, but I may have a long wait...

Are you referring to what I think you are, Peck ~ namely the query about being able to remove a coin from a slab, and re-insert it at a later date, with the certification still intact and available, being capable of cross referencing a bar code to a central record and detailed photo ? That one ?

If so, I too would be interested in Bill's views on that possibility, as I drew a blank when I mentioned it in an earlier post.

No, it was my - I thought - very reasonable point about why anyone would slab 60s coins. And let us not be under any illusions - there are many many many 60s coins out there which are UNQUESTIONABLY BU. It doesn't take an expenditure of £11:99 to confirm that, and nor does it make the coin itself worth more than a nominal handling charge even in the raw state. I also made the point about what Stephen Lockett said to me when I bought a box of such stuff off him at the Midland Coin Fair in the 90s, when I was just starting out as a mail order dealer and wanted a bit of stock.

I still maintain (and apologies to Bill for this) that you would have to be crazy to buy most 60s coins in a slab and pay for the privilege. Like I said, there are so many BU specimens out there, put aside by hopeful but ultimately deluded speculators at the time, that they will be a glut on the market for longer than even 1936 and 1937 coins, 1946 silver, and 1948 CuNi.

[Nick 329]

The same set had a mule penny, one of three known proof halfcrowns of a new type and a VIP Proof Crown.

I know of another three for certain, so the population will eventually turn out to be in double figures (if not three figures).

[VickySilver 830]

I know it is diverging from the topic, but please do not get carried away by apparent rarity of newly discovered [hyper]varietals of recent vintage as many more are likely to show up.

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Apart from a muppet why slab anything under say £500.If you don't know what you are buying DON'T BUY IT.

I have never met a 'perfect' person before and I do not think I have done so through this forum.

I actually find your calling me a muppet very offensive - because that is what you have just done with your post.

No offence made.It wasn't intended for you.

Anyone who can afford over £20k in slabbing his collection has made their decision in how they want to collect.Each to their own.

Think of the nice 1905 half crowns you could buy with over £24,000 (many coins cost £19.99 and some even more to get graded)!

To try and add some balance to the expenditure some of the results of grading by CGS have to me been spectacular - not so much the grade achieved (although it helps if it is high) but the new varieties that they have identified in their process (yes, and they have got some wrong as well as previously noted). Anyone looking at the site may be interested to inspect the 1953 series which now has seven new types of the proof that are unrecorded in any of the traditional catalogues (farthing, halfpenny, threepence, sixpence, two one shillings, florin {this last rejected though}). The same set had a mule penny, one of three known proof halfcrowns of a new type and a VIP Proof Crown. Apart from the penny which was a fairly obvious variety, all the other coins could easily be mistaken for normal proofs with a modest value. Now I am not suggesting that the value of this set matches the cost of grading but if it ever came to selling it I am sure it would attract some buyers.

Other coin collectors or dealers may have spotted the new types. Perhaps they would (will) be written up in Coin News or some other publication/website. What I do know is they are now on the CGS site with pictures so anyone registered to the site can compare them against their own coins.

Bill,

Sorry to rain on your parade, but all the varieties shown on their website are known and already described in numismatic literature - at the risk of blowing my own trumpet, I describe all of the currency and standard proof types in my two books on 20thC bronze and silver. Indeed, there are a few minor types I describe that they don't. Having said this, you are quite right that most of these types are not described in the standard catalogues e.g. Spink etc.

Hello David,

I just checked and I did not see the the new variety (that are actually pre-production proof) farthing and half penny in one of your books - unless you consider them to be minor varieties. That said your two books on coins from 1900 are excellent and the illustrations are first class. I have both next to me!

A number of the varieties that have come up in recent months (pre-1900) I have not found in most of the standard works that I have (the 1892 with 2 over 1 crown for example).

I have actually referenced your books (and others) in an article that I have been told will be in April's coin news. I have led people to your books when asked about a decent source of information - as I have done for Michael Gouby, Freeman etc (I also collect books and catalogues) but I believe a single source of information is very helpful (and I know of other web sites - also referenced in my article).

If the article is published I hope you and others find it informative.

[azda 979]

I'm also slightly deviating but i noticed Bill that you bought a few coins from one of the most talked about eBay sellers on here, i'm fairly sure you know who i mean, if not read the "been cleaned" thread.

Anyway i wanted to ask how the coins you bought from said eBay seller faired at CGS, any come back in a bodybag?

[Gary D 76]

The same set had a mule penny, one of three known proof halfcrowns of a new type and a VIP Proof Crown.

I know of another three for certain, so the population will eventually turn out to be in double figures (if not three figures).

I've got two, one of which I've had for several years without realizing they were that scarce.

[Nick 329]

The same set had a mule penny, one of three known proof halfcrowns of a new type and a VIP Proof Crown.

I know of another three for certain, so the population will eventually turn out to be in double figures (if not three figures).

I've got two, one of which I've had for several years without realizing they were that scarce.

Of the three that I mentioned, two belong to you and the third is mine.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Nick

[Bill Pugsley 0]

The same set had a mule penny, one of three known proof halfcrowns of a new type and a VIP Proof Crown.

I know of another three for certain, so the population will eventually turn out to be in double figures (if not three figures).

I've got two, one of which I've had for several years without realizing they were that scarce.

Hi Nick - two of what? The Halfcrown, Crown or the mule penny? Or two proof sets?

There are (now I believe) three different proof sets - the standard set issued for general population (40,000 made); the VIP Set (as names implies) for special gifts and I suspect less than 100 made but could be as low as 20 and the (as far as I have been able to find) pre-production proof set that was given to advisers to the Bank of England. For the latter it is estimated that there are no more than six produced (but finding out details is quite difficult).

[Nick 329]

The same set had a mule penny, one of three known proof halfcrowns of a new type and a VIP Proof Crown.

I know of another three for certain, so the population will eventually turn out to be in double figures (if not three figures).

I've got two, one of which I've had for several years without realizing they were that scarce.

Hi Nick - two of what? The Halfcrown, Crown or the mule penny? Or two proof sets?

There are (now I believe) three different proof sets - the standard set issued for general population (40,000 made); the VIP Set (as names implies) for special gifts and I suspect less than 100 made but could be as low as 20 and the (as far as I have been able to find) pre-production proof set that was given to advisers to the Bank of England. For the latter it is estimated that there are no more than six produced (but finding out details is quite difficult).

Hi Bill, I highlighted in bold the relevant part of the reply, but in case it isn't that clear on some displays - I know of three (in addition to those known to CGS) of the 1+A proof halfcrowns. Gary D has two of them and I have another one.

I find it hard to believe that there are so few of them. I found one within a few weeks of starting to look.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Nick

[Accumulator 52]

Apart from a muppet why slab anything under say £500.If you don't know what you are buying DON'T BUY IT.

I have never met a 'perfect' person before and I do not think I have done so through this forum.

I actually find your calling me a muppet very offensive - because that is what you have just done with your post.

No offence made.It wasn't intended for you.

Anyone who can afford over £20k in slabbing his collection has made their decision in how they want to collect.Each to their own.

Think of the nice 1905 half crowns you could buy with over £24,000 (many coins cost £19.99 and some even more to get graded)!

To try and add some balance to the expenditure some of the results of grading by CGS have to me been spectacular - not so much the grade achieved (although it helps if it is high) but the new varieties that they have identified in their process (yes, and they have got some wrong as well as previously noted). Anyone looking at the site may be interested to inspect the 1953 series which now has seven new types of the proof that are unrecorded in any of the traditional catalogues (farthing, halfpenny, threepence, sixpence, two one shillings, florin {this last rejected though}). The same set had a mule penny, one of three known proof halfcrowns of a new type and a VIP Proof Crown. Apart from the penny which was a fairly obvious variety, all the other coins could easily be mistaken for normal proofs with a modest value. Now I am not suggesting that the value of this set matches the cost of grading but if it ever came to selling it I am sure it would attract some buyers.

Other coin collectors or dealers may have spotted the new types. Perhaps they would (will) be written up in Coin News or some other publication/website. What I do know is they are now on the CGS site with pictures so anyone registered to the site can compare them against their own coins.

Bill, I'd be more than happy to re-imburse your costs of grading for the penny alone. Actually, quite a lot more!