CGS - A customer-facing business?

[mike 5]

Nice coins.

The 1820 has a few edge dings at 12 o'clock on the reverse and both have a few digs.

They are practically as struck and IMO GEF+.

From the pictures I cannot see evidence of cleaning.

I don't think CGS will see them that way. I suspect that grades somewhere in the VF55-EF60 are more likely, but hope they rate a little higher.

please advise where you have seen better.

Here's one I purged from the collection in the great refocus 4 or 5 years ago. Around the EF mark.

Here's my example - obverse:

and reverse:

[Peter 615]

Hi Mike

That is fantastic.

A coin that as a type collector would suffice....Wow

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Hi Mike

That is fantastic.

A coin that as a type collector would suffice....Wow

Lovely coin that I suspect should grade at CGS82 if not higher. I would love one of that quality in my collection!

[TomGoodheart 400]

Interesting little article in Coin News I thought.

Though I have to say I disagree with one point in it: "Any trip to an American fair will show you one very important difference between the US and the UK markets— “slabbingâ€. This practice, of encapsulating a coin in a permanent plastic holder, along with the associated grading system that is quite different from our standard “F, VF, EF†allows purchasers of coins to buy them knowing that their grade, and thus their value has been professionally appraised and, because of the slabbing process the coin will remain that way forever. This has, in turn allowed people to buy coins for investment, safe in the knowledge that they have bought coins that will not be affected by time, this has encouraged big money to come into the hobby and as a result coin prices have continued an upward trend—culminating in records such as this."

NO! (is my response!) Firstly, we are getting suggestions that coins do not stay forever the way they are when slabbed (check for mentions of gassing coins in slabs to 'enhance' the colours on US coin sites).

But most importantly it seems to me that ANY investment is subject to the whims of sentiment and the market ... and hence time.. There is NO guarantee (unless you get a legal contract enabling you to get back what you paid) that when you come to sell something there will be someone prepared to take it off your hands, let alone buy it to yield a profit. Trading in the South Seas, tulip bulbs, shares in the 1920s, dot-com companies and now stamps. Big money comes in .... and then leaves again as everyone gets the bug for the latest Beanie Babies instead.

So have your coins slabbed and graded by all means. But please don't think that the result is anything other than a nice coin in a plastic case. Because a slab is not some financial equivalent of an invisibility cloak. If the speculative market for coins evaporates (as I believe it did in the 1970s) then yes, better coins will be better protected ... but I doubt much will be immune.

[/rant]

Edited March 17, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[jaggy 528]

The reason why there is third party grading is to inject confidence into a market where not everyone is necessarily a collector or an expert in their area of interest. A higher level of confidence makes a market more attractive for investors.

It is not the 'slab' that matters here but the grade given by a 'trusted third party' (yes, that is a technical term). What the slab does is to give confidence that the coin is the one that has been graded and not some inferior substitute.

Any investor knows that you can lose money as well as make money on your investments. But for people who want to balance their portfolio across a range of investments and not just the traditional stocks & bonds the existence of TPGs is a plus.

Because, in the US market, many dealers will buy coins on the basis of the grade given by the TPG that also injects a degree of liquidity into that market which, in turn, increases its attractiveness to investors.

[TomGoodheart 400]

Ah, but is a more attractive market for investors a good thing for numismatists/ coin collectors ....?

[coin watch 1]

The reason why there is third party grading is to inject confidence into a market where not everyone is necessarily a collector or an expert in their area of interest. A higher level of confidence makes a market more attractive for investors.

It is not the 'slab' that matters here but the grade given by a 'trusted third party' (yes, that is a technical term). What the slab does is to give confidence that the coin is the one that has been graded and not some inferior substitute.

Any investor knows that you can lose money as well as make money on your investments. But for people who want to balance their portfolio across a range of investments and not just the traditional stocks & bonds the existence of TPGs is a plus.

Because, in the US market, many dealers will buy coins on the basis of the grade given by the TPG that also injects a degree of liquidity into that market which, in turn, increases its attractiveness to investors.

I can see the point here regarding the protection for the novice with their investment but what happens when these 'investors' or novices after say a decade of study start to realise that the 'guarantee' given on the slab maybe wrong for whatever reason? What I'm saying is that in my opinion the judgement given by these slab graders are not always correct, and a very small 'mistake' could make a huge difference to an investment.

Buy nice coins, not this plastic crap!! and most important buy things with knowledge without relying on other 'experts'

[brauereibeck 1]

Interesting little article in Coin News I thought.

Though I have to say I disagree with one point in it: "Any trip to an American fair will show you one very important difference between the US and the UK markets— "slabbing". This practice, of encapsulating a coin in a permanent plastic holder, along with the associated grading system that is quite different from our standard "F, VF, EF" allows purchasers of coins to buy them knowing that their grade, and thus their value has been professionally appraised and, because of the slabbing process the coin will remain that way forever. This has, in turn allowed people to buy coins for investment, safe in the knowledge that they have bought coins that will not be affected by time, this has encouraged big money to come into the hobby and as a result coin prices have continued an upward trend—culminating in records such as this."

NO! (is my response!) Firstly, we are getting suggestions that coins do not stay forever the way they are when slabbed (check for mentions of gassing coins in slabs to 'enhance' the colours on US coin sites).

But most importantly it seems to me that ANY investment is subject to the whims of sentiment and the market ... and hence time.. There is NO guarantee (unless you get a legal contract enabling you to get back what you paid) that when you come to sell something there will be someone prepared to take it off your hands, let alone buy it to yield a profit. Trading in the South Seas, tulip bulbs, shares in the 1920s, dot-com companies and now stamps. Big money comes in .... and then leaves again as everyone gets the bug for the latest Beanie Babies instead.

So have your coins slabbed and graded by all means. But please don't think that the result is anything other than a nice coin in a plastic case. Because a slab is not some financial equivalent of an invisibility cloak. If the speculative market for coins evaporates (as I believe it did in the 1970s) then yes, better coins will be better protected ... but I doubt much will be immune.

[/rant]

Excellent point. I personally have a hunch that the coin market will do a Clarice Cliff i.e. some of the current higher end values may start to feel very optimistic. When this will happen is anybody's guess.

[jaggy 528]

The reason why there is third party grading is to inject confidence into a market where not everyone is necessarily a collector or an expert in their area of interest. A higher level of confidence makes a market more attractive for investors.

It is not the 'slab' that matters here but the grade given by a 'trusted third party' (yes, that is a technical term). What the slab does is to give confidence that the coin is the one that has been graded and not some inferior substitute.

Any investor knows that you can lose money as well as make money on your investments. But for people who want to balance their portfolio across a range of investments and not just the traditional stocks & bonds the existence of TPGs is a plus.

Because, in the US market, many dealers will buy coins on the basis of the grade given by the TPG that also injects a degree of liquidity into that market which, in turn, increases its attractiveness to investors.

I can see the point here regarding the protection for the novice with their investment but what happens when these 'investors' or novices after say a decade of study start to realise that the 'guarantee' given on the slab maybe wrong for whatever reason? What I'm saying is that in my opinion the judgement given by these slab graders are not always correct, and a very small 'mistake' could make a huge difference to an investment.

Buy nice coins, not this plastic crap!! and most important buy things with knowledge without relying on other 'experts'

Agree with this.

I have been bidding in Heritage auctions recently where all the coins are slabbed. Fortunately, their photos are good enough that I can make up my own mind based on the coin and not the grade. But that is me and I have been collecting for long enough to be fairly confident in my assessment.

I got my first slabs a couple of weeks ago. I thought I would hate them and want to break them immediately. But, to be honest, they really are not that bad.

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Interesting little article in Coin News I thought.

Though I have to say I disagree with one point in it: "Any trip to an American fair will show you one very important difference between the US and the UK markets— "slabbing". This practice, of encapsulating a coin in a permanent plastic holder, along with the associated grading system that is quite different from our standard "F, VF, EF" allows purchasers of coins to buy them knowing that their grade, and thus their value has been professionally appraised and, because of the slabbing process the coin will remain that way forever. This has, in turn allowed people to buy coins for investment, safe in the knowledge that they have bought coins that will not be affected by time, this has encouraged big money to come into the hobby and as a result coin prices have continued an upward trend—culminating in records such as this."

NO! (is my response!) Firstly, we are getting suggestions that coins do not stay forever the way they are when slabbed (check for mentions of gassing coins in slabs to 'enhance' the colours on US coin sites).

But most importantly it seems to me that ANY investment is subject to the whims of sentiment and the market ... and hence time.. There is NO guarantee (unless you get a legal contract enabling you to get back what you paid) that when you come to sell something there will be someone prepared to take it off your hands, let alone buy it to yield a profit. Trading in the South Seas, tulip bulbs, shares in the 1920s, dot-com companies and now stamps. Big money comes in .... and then leaves again as everyone gets the bug for the latest Beanie Babies instead.

So have your coins slabbed and graded by all means. But please don't think that the result is anything other than a nice coin in a plastic case. Because a slab is not some financial equivalent of an invisibility cloak. If the speculative market for coins evaporates (as I believe it did in the 1970s) then yes, better coins will be better protected ... but I doubt much will be immune.

[/rant]

Excellent point. I personally have a hunch that the coin market will do a Clarice Cliff i.e. some of the current higher end values may start to feel very optimistic. When this will happen is anybody's guess.

Points on investments rising and falling are well laid out and allow people to make their own informed (or otherwise) decisions. What goes up will eventually come down (I just hope it will be after I sell my collection or when it becomes an issue for my successors).

References to plastic in a derogatory vein merely demonstrate a bias against encapsulation.

Having done some research on encapsulation pricing I was frankly astounded by the number of companies in North America that have been founded to undertake grading and encapsulation of coins. I was also intrigued by the number that are no longer in business. There are over ten companies offering grading and slabbing currently operating with charges ranging from a few dollars per coin to tens of dollars per coin. The higher priced companies include PCGS and NGC - but then again these are the most 'respected' in North America.

I also came across the ability to buy 'encapsulation supplies' that mimic those of the main coin grading companies under the guise of 'encapsulate your own lesser coins so that they can be co-located with your formally graded coins'.

Having been to US coin stores and US coin fairs I have to concur with the points made by Coin News in respect of the acceptability of graded coins by the US collector. To suggest that US collectors are anything less than a collector in the UK with the same number of years of collecting merely because they look for slabbed coins and generally accept as face value the grading given on the slab is patently wrong. The fact that I want to examine a UK coin in any US capsule before I will buy it means I have been burnt enough times to not implicitly trust the product. I just do not trust US companies grading of UK coins - but if I were a US coin collector I may love their product. I have that confidence in CGS graded coins of the UK and commonwealth countries that I do buy CGS graded coins based upon CGS grading without needing to pre-examine them.

North American collectors have largely come to accept slabbed coins. I believe the UK market is more discerning and I do not believe the whole market will ever embrace third party grading and encapsulation. I am hoping that enough of us will to ensure the continuation of the CGS service.

[azda 979]

I must say, this whole encapsulation thing drives me bonkers. We are basically buying coins from the present day backwards through time. I've seen many amazing Georgian/Victorian coins and so on, yet i cannot for the life of me EVER seeing or hearing about these Victorian or Georgian collectors of their day going on about encapsulation, yet the coins that we're all basically buying from them have survived in plentitude without a mention of plastic holders and in high quality grades to, so if they have stored their coins for generations without plastic, why can't we?

As for the American collectors, well we all know that they are influenced by the large TPGs, they follow like sheep, remember, America is driven by advertising, the last world cup there would have taken 2 months to get through had they got their way for four 25 min quarters so they could stick in their adverts.

Tomgoodheart posted a useful web address in the thread of the same name, you might want to take a look. This is a copy and paste from the website and has actually been used by PCGS and the reason for me that American TPGs hold no water for me

Environmental Damage

In 1986, fellow dealer Bruce Lorich submitted his Uncirculated 3¢ silver to the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) for their grade evaluation. They returned it as ungradeable due to having environmental damage. It's problem? Original toning. (Naturally PCGS kept Bruce's $22 grading fee.) [see Slab, Toning]

Lol, if original toning is environmental and they slab those god awful rainbow pieces of shite then there's got to be a problem somewhere with their system

Edited March 17, 2013 by azda

[brauereibeck 1]

I must say, this whole encapsulation thing drives me bonkers. We are basically buying coins from the present day backwards through time. I've seen many amazing Georgian/Victorian coins and so on, yet i cannot for the life of me EVER seeing or hearing about these Victorian or Georgian collectors of their day going on about encapsulation, yet the coins that we're all basically buying from them have survived in plentitude without a mention of plastic holders and in high quality grades to, so if they have stored their coins for generations without plastic, why can't we?

As for the American collectors, well we all know that they are influenced by the large TPGs, they follow like sheep, remember, America is driven by advertising, the last world cup there would have taken 2 months to get through had they got their way for four 25 min quarters so they could stick in their adverts.

Tomgoodheart posted a useful web address in the thread of the same name, you might want to take a look. This is a copy and paste from the website and has actually been used by PCGS and the reason for me that American TPGs hold no water for me

Environmental Damage

In 1986, fellow dealer Bruce Lorich submitted his Uncirculated 3¢ silver to the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) for their grade evaluation. They returned it as ungradeable due to having environmental damage. It's problem? Original toning. (Naturally PCGS kept Bruce's $22 grading fee.) [see Slab, Toning]

Lol, if original toning is environmental and they slab those god awful rainbow pieces of shite then there's got to be a problem somewhere with their system

The difference between coin collecting now and ten years ago is the digitisation revolution. I was driving down my high street in Oxford yesterday and noticed that my local Blockbusters was closing down. Nobody is hiring DVDs any more, its all about downloading digital content. Same for HMV etc. Coins, unlike for example oak furniture, seem to lend themselves well to the digital revolution. Two photos, a numerical grade, a price, a year, a variety are all parameters that work well in a digital age. Encapsulation of coins is probably as much about information management as environmental protection.

[Peckris 579]

Ah, but is a more attractive market for investors a good thing for numismatists/ coin collectors ....?

As someone who remembers the CloudCuckooLand absurdities of the late 60s (in hindsight), then the answer is patently NO, not necessarily.

I must say, this whole encapsulation thing drives me bonkers. We are basically buying coins from the present day backwards through time. I've seen many amazing Georgian/Victorian coins and so on, yet i cannot for the life of me EVER seeing or hearing about these Victorian or Georgian collectors of their day going on about encapsulation, yet the coins that we're all basically buying from them have survived in plentitude without a mention of plastic holders and in high quality grades to, so if they have stored their coins for generations without plastic, why can't we?

Damn right, Dave. And do we see art buyers demanding a picture be authenticated and sold in a plastic tomb? No, we do not. Antiques buyers? Nope. Stamp collectors? Nope. It seems only coin collectors cannot be 'trusted' to do their own research, and hence are 'sold' the notion of slabbing. Even the idea that 'slabs give confidence' is a piece of hype that on closer scrutiny (i.e. comparison with just about any other sphere of collecting), simply doesn't hold water.

[jaggy 528]

Art work is usually/often sold with a certificate of authenticity and is signed (and in the case of prints, numbered) by the artist. Antiques are often 'authenticated' especially if they go to auction. It is essentially the same principal as TPGs for coins.

[Peckris 579]

Art work is usually/often sold with a certificate of authenticity and is signed (and in the case of prints, numbered) by the artist. Antiques are often 'authenticated' especially if they go to auction. It is essentially the same principal as TPGs for coins.

Yes, but neither an artwork nor an antique is housed in a plastic slab, which was my point.

[jaggy 528]

Art work is usually/often sold with a certificate of authenticity and is signed (and in the case of prints, numbered) by the artist. Antiques are often 'authenticated' especially if they go to auction. It is essentially the same principal as TPGs for coins.

Yes, but neither an artwork nor an antique is housed in a plastic slab, which was my point.

And your point is well taken. But art work tends not to be minted in the thousands or hundreds of thousands and it is, therefore, much harder to substitute an inferior example for the one you think you bought.

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Art work is usually/often sold with a certificate of authenticity and is signed (and in the case of prints, numbered) by the artist. Antiques are often 'authenticated' especially if they go to auction. It is essentially the same principal as TPGs for coins.

Yes, but neither an artwork nor an antique is housed in a plastic slab, which was my point.

And your point is well taken. But art work tends not to be minted in the thousands or hundreds of thousands and it is, therefore, much harder to substitute an inferior example for the one you think you bought.

I am glad I just read about the uniqueness of art - unlike many coins. There are a number of 1933 pennies but only (as far as is known) one Mona Lisa. The British Philatelic Society do authenticate stamps and seal them in an perspex envelope with certificate number (in answer to "who heard of this for stamps"!). Some antique dealers mark the items that pass through their hands with special marking pens that show up under ultra-violet light to allow provenance to be checked. Works of art are also being marked on the reverse - yet twenty years ago this would have been unheard of.

I wonder what early coin collectors said about cabinets when they were produced, bearing in mind that in those early days only the rich could afford collecting coins - most peoples interest was limited to what they could buy. Even with those wonderful cabinets the opening and shutting of drawers led to the dreaded 'cabinet friction' on otherwise near perfect coins. In the sixties I used plastic envelopes for storage of coins or even Whitman folders. Many of the pennies I left in those same envelopes have become scrap after forty years. Now we have plastic envelopes that supposedly stop 'sweating' and we are encouraged to use paper envelopes instead where you have to take the coin out to examine it.

Maybe the coin slab will fall by the wayside but for now there is sufficient interest in having a quality service for UK coins from other people like me that I sincerely hope CGS will continue and in time thrive.

I do not think anyone who has commented positively on grading and encapsulation of coins has said it is the only way forward. We have not suggested that those who remove coins from slabs are wrong (which if it is a CGS slab I think is a shame). I have said time and again I used to loathe slabbing of coins and I used to remove them from slabs. I may have a load of CGS graded coins but I probably have well over ten times that number as raw coins as well - so if I want to 'feel' a coin in my hand I have plenty to chose from.

As another contributor noted - each to their own.

[Coinery 1,153]

Art work is usually/often sold with a certificate of authenticity and is signed (and in the case of prints, numbered) by the artist. Antiques are often 'authenticated' especially if they go to auction. It is essentially the same principal as TPGs for coins.

Yes, but neither an artwork nor an antique is housed in a plastic slab, which was my point.

Unless you're Damien Hurst, of course!

[Peckris 579]

I wonder what early coin collectors said about cabinets when they were produced, bearing in mind that in those early days only the rich could afford collecting coins - most peoples interest was limited to what they could buy. Even with those wonderful cabinets the opening and shutting of drawers led to the dreaded 'cabinet friction' on otherwise near perfect coins. In the sixties I used plastic envelopes for storage of coins or even Whitman folders. Many of the pennies I left in those same envelopes have become scrap after forty years. Now we have plastic envelopes that supposedly stop 'sweating' and we are encouraged to use paper envelopes instead where you have to take the coin out to examine it.

As someone established in a recent thread, 'cabinet friction' is a myth traditionally perpetuated by some dealers to account for very slight wear on a supposedly UNC coin. Some of us who own cabinets and love our coins have never seen this effect even after many years.

Most antiques are neither unique nor entombed. Actually, I was only responding to the Coin News article (above) that said how slabbing would protect a coin and its value for years to come. As Dave said, people have collected coins for centuries without slabbing, and there has always been provenance - just ask Rob.

Art work is usually/often sold with a certificate of authenticity and is signed (and in the case of prints, numbered) by the artist. Antiques are often 'authenticated' especially if they go to auction. It is essentially the same principal as TPGs for coins.

Yes, but neither an artwork nor an antique is housed in a plastic slab, which was my point.

Unless you're Damien Hurst, of course!

[azda 979]

I think the more sterile coin collecting becomes the less new collectors we'll see. I think by encapsulating coins you're alienating the collector, or at least those who want to collect coins and not graded Holders.

Where will the fun be then when a slab Tells you exactly what you have, what grade/rarity etc.

The fun in this hobby is actually finding those rare pieces that the seller did'nt realise what he was selling, having it already slabbed is taking away quite a majority of the fun IMO.....

[TomGoodheart 400]

I think the more sterile coin collecting becomes the less new collectors we'll see. I think by encapsulating coins you're alienating the collector, or at least those who want to collect coins and not graded Holders.

Where will the fun be then when a slab Tells you exactly what you have, what grade/rarity etc.

The fun in this hobby is actually finding those rare pieces that the seller did'nt realise what he was selling, having it already slabbed is taking away quite a majority of the fun IMO.....

I tend to agree Dave. At least .. it's a very different sort of collecting when you can just set up a search for "1882 Penny MS-66" and tick the box when you get one.

What I can't decide is whether the Royal Mint is doing more to 'alienate collectors' than poor old TPGSs could ever do, by turning out endless commemorative tat, or will in the end be seen to have revitalised the hobby by encouraging a few youngsters to start collecting ...?

It will be interesting to revisit this topic in 10 or 15 years time to see how (whether) things have changed ..!

[Peter 615]

Spot on Dave

I love the hunt.A day at the Midland fair is my drug.We used to take my wife and daughters to the Village Hotel in Coventry.Family room,Gym swimming pool,dinner & breckie for £70.Trouble is they have grown up.Please marry the buggers they are BU and look like their mother.She is still GEF.

[VickySilver 830]

Despite occasionally supporting "slabbing", I tend to agree as well. Possibly self-slabbing by putting a coin in a better holder that is removable can at least protect the coin from the hamfisted if not rendering a grade or "guarantee" might be an option.

I still think they are a good option for the more valuable later milled bits.

[jaggy 528]

I really don't understand where the problem is.

Just because a coin is 'graded' does not prevent the collector from making up his/her own mind. When I bid on Heritage lots I look at the coin not the grade the TPG has given it.

And just because a coin arrives 'slabbed' does not prevent anyone from breaking the slab and storing the coin as they see fit.

Of course, from the buyer's point of view, finding that rarity and paying a fraction of its value is always attractive. However, from the seller's point of view, that might be somewhat less attractive.

People collect coins for different reasons and enjoy them in different ways. Grading and slabbing is not about collecting. It is about protecting buyers and sellers in a global, online, market.

[argentumandcoins 70]

I really don't understand where the problem is.

Just because a coin is 'graded' does not prevent the collector from making up his/her own mind. When I bid on Heritage lots I look at the coin not the grade the TPG has given it.

And just because a coin arrives 'slabbed' does not prevent anyone from breaking the slab and storing the coin as they see fit.

Of course, from the buyer's point of view, finding that rarity and paying a fraction of its value is always attractive. However, from the seller's point of view, that might be somewhat less attractive.

People collect coins for different reasons and enjoy them in different ways. Grading and slabbing is not about collecting. It is about protecting buyers and sellers in a global, online, market.

Sadly that is not the case at all. Forgeries already exist in forged slabs, it will not be too long before the forgeries become better and then your online protection is not worth the stamp it will cost to post it.

The rest of your post I have no argument with at all. If we all liked the same things, in the same presentation, the world would be a dull and very expensive place.