Stamps versus coins over the last 30 years

[Accumulator 52]

Just picking up on something Bill Pugsley interestingly mentioned in another thread, and with which I agree. From a purely 'investment' point of view, coins appear to have comfortably outperformed stamps over the past 30 years. Two questions from me:

1. Is this true, and if so why?

2. Could whatever has caused a fall in stamp prices, eventually affect coin prices too?

[Peter 615]

My bias is for coins.My father collected stamps but both grandfathers liked coins.

There is no comparison really.Stamps have only been about since Vickie was on the throne.

Cat values for stamps has always been

[Coinery 1,153]

Stamps have only been about since Vickie was on the throne.

Top point, I was worried there for a second! Stamps have nothing of the heritage coins have! Phew!

[Nicholas 51]

Metal objects feel better than paper ones.

[shagreen 24]

Metal objects feel better than paper ones.

I collected both as a junior but went to coins because they are not flimsy paper with no intrinsic value and of course coins can have cartwheel luster

Edited March 5, 2013 by shagreen

[Peter 615]

Welcome Shagreen.

Those early proof sets are a bit rare and expensive.

[Gary1000 41]

Welcome Shagreen.

Those early proof sets are a bit rare and expensive.

I first started collecting coins, had previously dabbled with stamps in my teens. With coins I ran out of steam probably in the early ninties I think because of all that was being minted was endless comemeratives and the likes which were unlikely ever to have any value and much less than the purchase price. I think stamps went the same way even ealier so people just lost interest. There was no more chase, you just waited for the next set to appear ever few weeks. The post office was just churning out more and more junk issues for collectors purely as a revenue stream. I think coin collecting is going the same way. Who in there right mind collects modern commeratives?

[copper123 1,486]

There was no more chase, you just waited for the next set to appear ever few weeks. The post office was just churning out more and more junk issues for collectors purely as a revenue stream. I think coin collecting is going the same way. Who in there right mind collects modern commeratives?2

Very true - but it is really wrong to dismiss the recent output of the mint the 50p issues have been very good and will draw coin collectors in for many years to come - the kew gardens 50p for instance.

we will need new blood to come into the hobby or it will die, just as surely as collectors lost interest in stamps in the seventies and early eighties

[Peckris 579]

My bias is for coins.My father collected stamps but both grandfathers liked coins.

There is no comparison really. Stamps have only been about since Vickie was on the throne.

Cat values for stamps has always been

Not only that, numismatics is one of the world's oldest hobbies I believe? Even royalty has got in on the act at various times.

There was no more chase, you just waited for the next set to appear ever few weeks. The post office was just churning out more and more junk issues for collectors purely as a revenue stream. I think coin collecting is going the same way. Who in there right mind collects modern commeratives?

Very true - but it is really wrong to dismiss the recent output of the mint the 50p issues have been very good and will draw coin collectors in for many years to come - the kew gardens 50p for instance.

we will need new blood to come into the hobby or it will die, just as surely as collectors lost interest in stamps in the seventies and early eighties

The real question is - will collectors move from that market (which relates to proper coin collecting as 'limited edition plates' does to genuine antiques) to 'our' sort of coins?

The worrying factor is one that affects both stamps and coins:

Stamps have been affected by the fall-off in letter writing, and the vast increase of business franking in place of the traditional stamp. Now that so much is done on the internet, it looks even worse for stamps.

The trouble is - the same argument applies to coins. Where circulating currency once represented a serious proportion of the money supply, now it is negligible. I fear we may even see the disappearance of coinage within a generation.

One ray of hope : vinyl never quite died, but its recent return to favour still only represents a tiny % of records sold/downloaded. However, 'collectable' vinyl goes from strength to strength. Perhaps people will continue to collect coins as art/antiques even when they've gone out of use as money? Actually, that question has already been answered now I think of it - predecimal coins are as strong as ever but have not been used for decades.

[shagreen 24]

Welcome Shagreen.

Those early proof sets are a bit rare and expensive.

Thank you Peter, I joined this chat group because after looking at the posts over the last month or so, you all seem like nice people with interesting things to say and knowledge to share. Yes the predecimal proof coins are rare and expensive - thats OK its actually the contemporary cases that give me the most trouble they are virtually uncollectable. I am actually a researcher by trade and do numismatic research as part of my hobby I really look forward to working more and sharing in this area of early proof coinage - particularly their methods of manufacture. Has anyone noticed that the horse on the 1893 proof crown reverse comes in with and without teeth versions- yes its true . This is not noted in the varities listed on the CGS website http://www.coingradingservices.co.uk/?page=valuations_by_grade_list but I expect its covered by one of the other die descriptions.

[Nick 329]

Welcome Shagreen.

Those early proof sets are a bit rare and expensive.

Thank you Peter, I joined this chat group because after looking at the posts over the last month or so, you all seem like nice people with interesting things to say and knowledge to share. Yes the predecimal proof coins are rare and expensive - thats OK its actually the contemporary cases that give me the most trouble they are virtually uncollectable. I am actually a researcher by trade and do numismatic research as part of my hobby I really look forward to working more and sharing in this area of early proof coinage - particularly their methods of manufacture. Has anyone noticed that the horse on the 1893 proof crown reverse comes in with and without teeth versions- yes its true . This is not noted in the varities listed on the CGS website http://www.coingradingservices.co.uk/?page=valuations_by_grade_list but I expect its covered by one of the other die descriptions.

I'd never noticed that before. Nice. Just looked at my pictures of currency crowns and the 1893 LVII has teeth.

[jaggy 528]

My father had a very good stamp collection. Unfortunately, he died when I was 9 so I was never able to share his hobby. Perhaps one reason for his collection was that my grandfather spent a lifetime working for the Post Office - only interrupted by 4 years service in WW1 (Royal Garrison Artlllery) - and ending up with an Imperial Service Medal when he retired. After his death we were forced to sell it as money was tight.

History was always my passion and coins dovetail into that very nicely. Stamps can illustrate modern history too and their ability to do it pictorially gives them an advantage. But anything prior to Rowland Hill doesn't work for stamps so you need another medium.

As a child, 6d got you into the ABC Minors and another 6d got you sweets for the weekend. 6d also got you in and out of town (Glasgow) on the subway - 3d each way. So sixpence was always a meaningful coin for me ... at least until 1971. Do children have meaningful coins today?

One thing I have learned over the years is that you can never predict where the markets is going. And so it is with stamps and coins (or antiques or art or vinyl, etc. etc.). Stamps might be in the doldrums at the moment but that does not mean that they will be there in 5 or 10 years time. So long as there are collectors then there will be a market. What has really changed in the past 15 years is the internationalisation of the collecting market thanks to the internet. There is good and bad to that. On the one hand it gives people a cheap entry point and access to a bigger stock of collectible coins than ever before. On the other hand, it gives charlatans an opportunity to rip-off the inexperienced through markets like Ebay.

My own view is that quality always has a market and that will be true in any collecting field. So I don't think it is all doom and gloom but - thanks to the internet - there is much more 'clutter' than before and collectors will need to learn to work through that ... which they will over time.

Oh ... I also have a small collection of 45s and a turntable if anyone wants to do a 60s & 70s night.

[DaveG38 405]

Welcome Shagreen.

Those early proof sets are a bit rare and expensive.

Thank you Peter, I joined this chat group because after looking at the posts over the last month or so, you all seem like nice people with interesting things to say and knowledge to share. Yes the predecimal proof coins are rare and expensive - thats OK its actually the contemporary cases that give me the most trouble they are virtually uncollectable. I am actually a researcher by trade and do numismatic research as part of my hobby I really look forward to working more and sharing in this area of early proof coinage - particularly their methods of manufacture. Has anyone noticed that the horse on the 1893 proof crown reverse comes in with and without teeth versions- yes its true . This is not noted in the varities listed on the CGS website http://www.coingradingservices.co.uk/?page=valuations_by_grade_list but I expect its covered by one of the other die descriptions.

Hi Shagreen,

The horse on my 1893 proof crown has teeth. I hope you are now going to tell me that the 'with teeth' variety is mega-rare and my example will be worth a life-changing fortune.

[pies 33]

Used to collect stamps and i found whichever way i stored them was wrong.If you handled them you had to be very carefull of that pricey stamp could lose all its value in a heartbeat.So i stopped

Coins have the advantage of being more robust,yes handling them wrong or poor storage wont devalue them to worthless in the blink of an eye.

In this modern age with houses being smaller i suspect coin collecting will increase as a large collection still requires little space

[InforaPenny 21]

I'm somewhat conflicted on this topic. As with most things in life a proper answer should probably begin with “It depends…â€

I agree that for the most part stamps have been a terrible investment, and the fact that Post Offices worldwide have viewed stamps as an important revenue stream for many years now has resulted in a flood of issues aimed at the collector. A similar situation for coins also seems to be emerging with the issue of numerous non-circulating-legal-tender (NCLT) coins, again aimed at the collector. The best way to deal with this situation is to have a firm “cutoff†date beyond which you will not collect. For myself, this is the end of the 1960s with decimalization.

That said, as prices of the pre-decimal bronze coins to fill gaps in my collection have soared, several years ago I also began dabbling with stamp collecting again after a long hiatus. My personal favorites are early classic stamps up to the mid-1860s when stamp collecting “beganâ€, including early British line-engraved such as penny blacks and reds, twopence blues, early Brazil including “bullseye†and other numerals, Cape triangles, early Mauritius, France and Belgium. As seen in recent auctions, some early classic stamp rarities have been achieving record prices, so at least a few stamps have investment potential.

However, I don’t collect for investment and only collect what I like (I avoid compulsive space filling). Fortunately, there are many very inexpensive pre-1960s stamps, and I confess that I’ve been working on a representative worldwide collection of mostly inexpensive but interesting stamps focused on the 1840-1940 era. Many of these are engraved issues, and even some of the 20th century are very attractive, such as the George V seahorses, 1935 Commonwealth silver jubilee sets, etc. While this don’t mean that my primary collecting interest has changed from pre-decimal bronze coinage, as I enter my second childhood, dabbling with collecting stamps again it is both inexpensive and enjoyable.

Best Regards,

InforaPenny

[1949threepence 3,367]

My bias is for coins.My father collected stamps but both grandfathers liked coins.

There is no comparison really. Stamps have only been about since Vickie was on the throne.

Cat values for stamps has always been

Not only that, numismatics is one of the world's oldest hobbies I believe? Even royalty has got in on the act at various times.

There was no more chase, you just waited for the next set to appear ever few weeks. The post office was just churning out more and more junk issues for collectors purely as a revenue stream. I think coin collecting is going the same way. Who in there right mind collects modern commeratives?

Very true - but it is really wrong to dismiss the recent output of the mint the 50p issues have been very good and will draw coin collectors in for many years to come - the kew gardens 50p for instance.

we will need new blood to come into the hobby or it will die, just as surely as collectors lost interest in stamps in the seventies and early eighties

The real question is - will collectors move from that market (which relates to proper coin collecting as 'limited edition plates' does to genuine antiques) to 'our' sort of coins?

The worrying factor is one that affects both stamps and coins:

Stamps have been affected by the fall-off in letter writing, and the vast increase of business franking in place of the traditional stamp. Now that so much is done on the internet, it looks even worse for stamps.

The trouble is - the same argument applies to coins. Where circulating currency once represented a serious proportion of the money supply, now it is negligible. I fear we may even see the disappearance of coinage within a generation.

One ray of hope : vinyl never quite died, but its recent return to favour still only represents a tiny % of records sold/downloaded. However, 'collectable' vinyl goes from strength to strength. Perhaps people will continue to collect coins as art/antiques even when they've gone out of use as money? Actually, that question has already been answered now I think of it - predecimal coins are as strong as ever but have not been used for decades.

That is a possibility, although if it did happen, then by definition, it would also mean the simultaneous demise of currency notes as a medium for the exchange of goods and services. That is a total anathema to me, and, I'm sure, many millions of others, as it would mean that any given individual would be instantly traceable at any time. With the anonymity of straight cash it is still possible to maintain one's privacy to a greater or lesser extent. For that reason, I sincerely hope the abolition of paper currency and coinage never becomes a fact in being. Rather, I do foresee, a five pound coin at some point, as a result of inflation.

With regard to the long term viability of the hobby I'm slightly uncertain, but more cup half full than cup half empty. Whilst it would be interesting to see a pictorially represented, pure age demographic of coin collectors, which I don't think is possible as there wouldn't be enough data, I do suspect that many (in this country at any rate) currently belong to the generation born between about 1930 and 1960 ~ in other words those who had experience, even to a very limited extent, of the pre decimal currency, which piqued an interest maintained to this day. The development of the internet gave them a renewed platform for the revival of a youthful hobby, and no doubt serious money to indulge those once cherished BU items on a long put aside wish list. Let's make no mistake here and say that much of that group will be around for a long time to come, and will probably attract new adherents as time goes by.

As far as later generations are concerned, well pretty obviously, it's difficult to get too excited about modern currency strikes, with the possible exception of the £2 coin. So for many of my generation and younger, there will never have been that initial impetus to climb aboard the hobby. That said, the "collector mentality", if I may call it that, remains as strong as ever, and I feel sure that a strong untapped.potential for younger people to become numismatists, still exists. With many traditional cash investments not looking too exciting at present, people of all ages are earnestly seeking alternative forms of investment opportunity, and if this can be combined with a new hobby, then you have the best of both worlds.

I do think it's a pity that there aren't more coin clubs, which would be an attraction for many budding enthusiasts. You can't do everything over the internet. There remains the much stronger real life experience and interaction, which local coin clubs would undoubtedly offer, and there are numerous church halls and other venues available for monthly hire at very reasonable rates. The problem with coin clubs is that they need a leader ~ someone with the time, energy and commitment to maintain them ~ and provide a focus for their activities. Probably a retired person would best fit this bill, as they don't have the ongoing distraction of work and young children.

[Peckris 579]

That is a possibility, although if it did happen, then by definition, it would also mean the simultaneous demise of currency notes as a medium for the exchange of goods and services. That is a total anathema to me, and, I'm sure, many millions of others, as it would mean that any given individual would be instantly traceable at any time. With the anonymity of straight cash it is still possible to maintain one's privacy to a greater or lesser extent. For that reason, I sincerely hope the abolition of paper currency and coinage never becomes a fact in being. Rather, I do foresee, a five pound coin at some point, as a result of inflation.

With regard to the long term viability of the hobby I'm slightly uncertain, but more cup half full than cup half empty. Whilst it would be interesting to see a pictorially represented, pure age demographic of coin collectors, which I don't think is possible as there wouldn't be enough data, I do suspect that many (in this country at any rate) currently belong to the generation born between about 1930 and 1960 ~ in other words those who had experience, even to a very limited extent, of the pre decimal currency, which piqued an interest maintained to this day. The development of the internet gave them a renewed platform for the revival of a youthful hobby, and no doubt serious money to indulge those once cherished BU items on a long put aside wish list. Let's make no mistake here and say that much of that group will be around for a long time to come, and will probably attract new adherents as time goes by.

I do think it's a pity that there aren't more coin clubs, which would be an attraction for many budding enthusiasts. You can't do everything over the internet. There remains the much stronger real life experience and interaction, which local coin clubs would undoubtedly offer, and there are numerous church halls and other venues available for monthly hire at very reasonable rates. The problem with coin clubs is that they need a leader ~ someone with the time, energy and commitment to maintain them ~ and provide a focus for their activities. Probably a retired person would best fit this bill, as they don't have the ongoing distraction of work and young children.

I was only talking about the coinage - I estimate banknotes will be around for a good while yet. Though I doubt that the £5 coin will replace the paper fiver, given the comparative costs of production. (Having said that, the coins would outlast several generations of paper fivers, so maybe there's not all that much in it?)

I agree absolutely about coin clubs.

[Peter 615]

There is not a coin club within 40 miles of me and considering if I'm commuting it won't work.

Same with detecting. I'm in the middle of Suffolk. I've searched the net and found Ipswich detecting club were holding a rally 5 miles away...an enquiry made and they were fully booked.A bit clickie I feel to get into the GANG.

[Peter 615]

Double post

Edited March 6, 2013 by Peter

[1949threepence 3,367]

I was only talking about the coinage - I estimate banknotes will be around for a good while yet. Though I doubt that the £5 coin will replace the paper fiver, given the comparative costs of production. (Having said that, the coins would outlast several generations of paper fivers, so maybe there's not all that much in it?)

Taken to it's literal conclusion, the problem with that scenario is that the minimum currency available ~ and hence miminum price ~ would be £5, as there would be paper notes available, but no coins.

[Peckris 579]

I was only talking about the coinage - I estimate banknotes will be around for a good while yet. Though I doubt that the £5 coin will replace the paper fiver, given the comparative costs of production. (Having said that, the coins would outlast several generations of paper fivers, so maybe there's not all that much in it?)

Taken to it's literal conclusion, the problem with that scenario is that the minimum currency available ~ and hence miminum price ~ would be £5, as there would be paper notes available, but no coins.

True. But the way things are going, I could visualise a situation where the lower denominations gradually disappear. The penny is worth less than the 1/2p when it was demonetised, and who really finds much use for the 2p or even 5p now? The 10p probably has less buying power than 1p did in 1971.

You see where this is going - small change will become too expensive to manufacture, and people will start to think in 10p or 20p units as the minimum. So revise my prediction to see the 10p or 20p as the smallest denomination in a generation. The cheque is to disappear, most people use plastic or online for much of their transactions, and it's not far-fetched to imagine that before too long, someone will come up with a working alternative to the Mondex experiment.

Remember - pre-Euro, the Italians gave sweets as change rather than the worthless smallest lire denominations. And that was a long time ago, I remember it in the 70s!

[Accumulator 52]

I was only talking about the coinage - I estimate banknotes will be around for a good while yet. Though I doubt that the £5 coin will replace the paper fiver, given the comparative costs of production. (Having said that, the coins would outlast several generations of paper fivers, so maybe there's not all that much in it?)

Taken to it's literal conclusion, the problem with that scenario is that the minimum currency available ~ and hence miminum price ~ would be £5, as there would be paper notes available, but no coins.

True. But the way things are going, I could visualise a situation where the lower denominations gradually disappear. The penny is worth less than the 1/2p when it was demonetised, and who really finds much use for the 2p or even 5p now? The 10p probably has less buying power than 1p did in 1971.

You see where this is going - small change will become too expensive to manufacture, and people will start to think in 10p or 20p units as the minimum. So revise my prediction to see the 10p or 20p as the smallest denomination in a generation. The cheque is to disappear, most people use plastic or online for much of their transactions, and it's not far-fetched to imagine that before too long, someone will come up with a working alternative to the Mondex experiment.

Remember - pre-Euro, the Italians gave sweets as change rather than the worthless smallest lire denominations. And that was a long time ago, I remember it in the 70s!

It must surely cost more than 1p to produce a (copper covered steel) penny already? I think you're right. it can't be long until the smallest practical unit of currency becomes the 10p and eventually, a £1.

[1949threepence 3,367]

I was only talking about the coinage - I estimate banknotes will be around for a good while yet. Though I doubt that the £5 coin will replace the paper fiver, given the comparative costs of production. (Having said that, the coins would outlast several generations of paper fivers, so maybe there's not all that much in it?)

Taken to it's literal conclusion, the problem with that scenario is that the minimum currency available ~ and hence miminum price ~ would be £5, as there would be paper notes available, but no coins.

True. But the way things are going, I could visualise a situation where the lower denominations gradually disappear. The penny is worth less than the 1/2p when it was demonetised, and who really finds much use for the 2p or even 5p now? The 10p probably has less buying power than 1p did in 1971.

You see where this is going - small change will become too expensive to manufacture, and people will start to think in 10p or 20p units as the minimum. So revise my prediction to see the 10p or 20p as the smallest denomination in a generation. The cheque is to disappear, most people use plastic or online for much of their transactions, and it's not far-fetched to imagine that before too long, someone will come up with a working alternative to the Mondex experiment.

Remember - pre-Euro, the Italians gave sweets as change rather than the worthless smallest lire denominations. And that was a long time ago, I remember it in the 70s!

It must surely cost more than 1p to produce a (copper covered steel) penny already? I think you're right. it can't be long until the smallest practical unit of currency becomes the 10p and eventually, a £1.

The complications could arise in on line trading, where decimal points might easily remain viable in the absence of specific legislation.

Judging by the volume of 1 & 2p's from the late 80's and early 90's still with lustre on them (obviously sitting around unused for long stretches of time), I think we might getaway without minting any, and leave the rest in circulation to gradually die out ?

Don't know. Intersting question though.

[Peckris 579]

I was only talking about the coinage - I estimate banknotes will be around for a good while yet. Though I doubt that the £5 coin will replace the paper fiver, given the comparative costs of production. (Having said that, the coins would outlast several generations of paper fivers, so maybe there's not all that much in it?)

Taken to it's literal conclusion, the problem with that scenario is that the minimum currency available ~ and hence miminum price ~ would be £5, as there would be paper notes available, but no coins.

True. But the way things are going, I could visualise a situation where the lower denominations gradually disappear. The penny is worth less than the 1/2p when it was demonetised, and who really finds much use for the 2p or even 5p now? The 10p probably has less buying power than 1p did in 1971.

You see where this is going - small change will become too expensive to manufacture, and people will start to think in 10p or 20p units as the minimum. So revise my prediction to see the 10p or 20p as the smallest denomination in a generation. The cheque is to disappear, most people use plastic or online for much of their transactions, and it's not far-fetched to imagine that before too long, someone will come up with a working alternative to the Mondex experiment.

Remember - pre-Euro, the Italians gave sweets as change rather than the worthless smallest lire denominations. And that was a long time ago, I remember it in the 70s!

It must surely cost more than 1p to produce a (copper covered steel) penny already? I think you're right. it can't be long until the smallest practical unit of currency becomes the 10p and eventually, a £1.

The complications could arise in on line trading, where decimal points might easily remain viable in the absence of specific legislation.

Judging by the volume of 1 & 2p's from the late 80's and early 90's still with lustre on them (obviously sitting around unused for long stretches of time), I think we might getaway without minting any, and leave the rest in circulation to gradually die out ?

Don't know. Intersting question though.

Or as someone said on QI recently, "When are they going to mint a 99p coin to help all those shopkeepers and manufacturers?"

[1949threepence 3,367]

I was only talking about the coinage - I estimate banknotes will be around for a good while yet. Though I doubt that the £5 coin will replace the paper fiver, given the comparative costs of production. (Having said that, the coins would outlast several generations of paper fivers, so maybe there's not all that much in it?)

Taken to it's literal conclusion, the problem with that scenario is that the minimum currency available ~ and hence miminum price ~ would be £5, as there would be paper notes available, but no coins.

True. But the way things are going, I could visualise a situation where the lower denominations gradually disappear. The penny is worth less than the 1/2p when it was demonetised, and who really finds much use for the 2p or even 5p now? The 10p probably has less buying power than 1p did in 1971.

You see where this is going - small change will become too expensive to manufacture, and people will start to think in 10p or 20p units as the minimum. So revise my prediction to see the 10p or 20p as the smallest denomination in a generation. The cheque is to disappear, most people use plastic or online for much of their transactions, and it's not far-fetched to imagine that before too long, someone will come up with a working alternative to the Mondex experiment.

Remember - pre-Euro, the Italians gave sweets as change rather than the worthless smallest lire denominations. And that was a long time ago, I remember it in the 70s!

It must surely cost more than 1p to produce a (copper covered steel) penny already? I think you're right. it can't be long until the smallest practical unit of currency becomes the 10p and eventually, a £1.

The complications could arise in on line trading, where decimal points might easily remain viable in the absence of specific legislation.

Judging by the volume of 1 & 2p's from the late 80's and early 90's still with lustre on them (obviously sitting around unused for long stretches of time), I think we might getaway without minting any, and leave the rest in circulation to gradually die out ?

Don't know. Intersting question though.

Or as someone said on QI recently, "When are they going to mint a 99p coin to help all those shopkeepers and manufacturers?"

I've been raising that point for years, Peck. But nobody took me seriously before ......................