Thoughts on Grading

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Elsewhere much has been written about the merits and demerits of UK Coin Grading Services (CGS) and other third part grading companies (TPGC) - whether it be the methods they use to calculate grading or the fact that the coins end up encapsulated.

I undertook a review of all coins I had submitted to CGS and did an analysis of originally advised grades (my own when bought privately, or the grade suggested by the auction house / dealer at time of purchase) and those assessed by CGS.

Whatever your opinion of grading by CGS or others, I believe CGS offer a consistent service and that regardless of the age of the coin the same rules apply.

I noticed some interesting trends as a result of my review - especially amongst those dealers that I had consistently bought coins from (I bought from them because of the, to me, accurate grade they gave to their coins). Coins dating from 1900 consistently sold as BU or UNC compared well to the CGS equivalent grades of UNC80 or higher. Coins from around 1838 described as BU or UNC by the same dealers ended up at what were CGS EF70 or CGS AU75 grades, with only a few reaching UNC80 or higher. Coins before 1838 could actually end up as CGS VF50 through AU78, again with very few becoming UNC80. This perplexed me and I have since heard of the expression 'grade creep' - where the older a coin the higher the grade it seemingly gets.

Another thing I have heard of is two coins of comparable grade being assessed differently by dealers (and collectors) because one is a rarer date. If you see 1905 shillings, florins or halfcrowns being offered they always seem to be graded higher than I would imagine the 1902 equivalent coin. I would be interested if others have seen this for themselves.

I would add that I stopped buying from a number of sources after seeing what the CGS equivalent of their BU or UNC was. An example was a BU 1951 Penny that turned out to be a cleaned proof - a bit of a let down to say the least. Although 'improved' may be a way of describing some coins sold as BU or UNC - many were actually inferior grades. Some of these coins were bought years ago and I had accepted them at the time so I did not believe appropriate to challenge the source.

What the experience did teach me (and seeing how CGS worked has also helped), I now try and check all coins before I buy them with a 10 times magnifier. If they pass my criteria with that lens I will then use a 25 times magnifier to inspect the coin - and it is amazing the difference between the two lenses make. A stunning UNC Victorian Bun Head Sixpence sold as such by a leading dealer had a 'carbon spot' under 10 times magnification - but when looked at under 25 times it was actually a hole made by corrosion (and would be rejected by CGS). It is a lovely coin but not what I expected when I bought it.

I would be interested in the views of others dealing with grading (please use the other forums to complain about TPGC's).

[TomGoodheart 400]

Well, as I've said elsewhere Bill, I don't pay much attention to what someone else grades a coin as. In the end, I'm the one that has to live with it and I'm the one that needs to be happy when I look over my collection.

But I admit I am in a minority here, collecting hammered coins. To me the main thing is the coin 'in the hand'. Yes, I do inspect them with a lens, to either examine finer detail, check for differences, or damage. But very few hammered coins are perfect to the extent I'd worry about a carbon spot (not in my price bracket, anyway!) if overall the coin was the hammered equivalent of your "stunning UNC ... Sixpence"

Plus, to my eye at least, with hammered coins the amount of wear a coin has suffered is only one of many factors that makes a coin desirable or undesirable. This for example is still one of my favourites.

Struck from dies on the point of falling apart, on a flan that is thinner in some parts than others, leading to weaknesses in the strike, I'm not at all sure how I'd grade it ... or whether someone telling me that it's nVF or gVF would help me decide whather to buy it or not.

But that's just me. I still find the discussions around grading of interest!

[Peter 615]

I do feel I can grade coins within my collection.I don't need to get other people to tell me what I have.

[Nick 329]

Another thing I have heard of is two coins of comparable grade being assessed differently by dealers (and collectors) because one is a rarer date. If you see 1905 shillings, florins or halfcrowns being offered they always seem to be graded higher than I would imagine the 1902 equivalent coin. I would be interested if others have seen this for themselves.

You see that frequently where there are large price differentials between grades. If the seller can manage to inflate the grade by a fraction, it could make the difference of several hundred pounds for a 1905 HC, whereas for a 1902 HC it's just a few quid and probably not worth the effort.

[Peckris 579]

Another thing I have heard of is two coins of comparable grade being assessed differently by dealers (and collectors) because one is a rarer date. If you see 1905 shillings, florins or halfcrowns being offered they always seem to be graded higher than I would imagine the 1902 equivalent coin. I would be interested if others have seen this for themselves.

You see that frequently where there are large price differentials between grades. If the seller can manage to inflate the grade by a fraction, it could make the difference of several hundred pounds for a 1905 HC, whereas for a 1902 HC it's just a few quid and probably not worth the effort.

How would you grade this, out of interest?

[Paulus 1,975]

Another thing I have heard of is two coins of comparable grade being assessed differently by dealers (and collectors) because one is a rarer date. If you see 1905 shillings, florins or halfcrowns being offered they always seem to be graded higher than I would imagine the 1902 equivalent coin. I would be interested if others have seen this for themselves.

You see that frequently where there are large price differentials between grades. If the seller can manage to inflate the grade by a fraction, it could make the difference of several hundred pounds for a 1905 HC, whereas for a 1902 HC it's just a few quid and probably not worth the effort.

How would you grade this, out of interest?

Near Fine for me (at best) - Fair Details!

[Nick 329]

Another thing I have heard of is two coins of comparable grade being assessed differently by dealers (and collectors) because one is a rarer date. If you see 1905 shillings, florins or halfcrowns being offered they always seem to be graded higher than I would imagine the 1902 equivalent coin. I would be interested if others have seen this for themselves.

You see that frequently where there are large price differentials between grades. If the seller can manage to inflate the grade by a fraction, it could make the difference of several hundred pounds for a 1905 HC, whereas for a 1902 HC it's just a few quid and probably not worth the effort.

How would you grade this, out of interest?

Who are you asking? If me, I'd say obverse Fair, reverse almost Fine.

[DaveG38 405]

Another thing I have heard of is two coins of comparable grade being assessed differently by dealers (and collectors) because one is a rarer date. If you see 1905 shillings, florins or halfcrowns being offered they always seem to be graded higher than I would imagine the 1902 equivalent coin. I would be interested if others have seen this for themselves.

You see that frequently where there are large price differentials between grades. If the seller can manage to inflate the grade by a fraction, it could make the difference of several hundred pounds for a 1905 HC, whereas for a 1902 HC it's just a few quid and probably not worth the effort.

How would you grade this, out of interest?

I'd grade it as SBTM or slightly better than mine!

[Peckris 579]

Another thing I have heard of is two coins of comparable grade being assessed differently by dealers (and collectors) because one is a rarer date. If you see 1905 shillings, florins or halfcrowns being offered they always seem to be graded higher than I would imagine the 1902 equivalent coin. I would be interested if others have seen this for themselves.

You see that frequently where there are large price differentials between grades. If the seller can manage to inflate the grade by a fraction, it could make the difference of several hundred pounds for a 1905 HC, whereas for a 1902 HC it's just a few quid and probably not worth the effort.

How would you grade this, out of interest?

I'd grade it as SBTM or slightly better than mine!

I've always rated it as Fair+, but I've seen them seriously graded as Fine (CC for example). I suspect CGS would say no more than Fair.

[VickySilver 830]

Wow, fair only, and authenticity??

[Peckris 579]

Wow, fair only, and authenticity??

I would hope they gave it authenticity! I bought it at Warwick & Warwick in the 90s, but I can't remember what grade they said. I personally think it's more than Fair, but not Fine. But CGS would be stricter I'm sure.

[ski 1]

i always make my own assessmnet of grade of any coin i wish to buy, i then choose to buy or not at the price offered or barter... i dont always get it right, but over the years ive got better. i use a 30x loupe. i have at times posted a pic or 2 here if im looking at buying a coin from a series that im not familier with, theres always someone here that is familier with a coin and can offer advice.

i think youre right that grades do vary with rarity of a coin, but then to an avid collector who collects all varieties.....desirability of a rare item will have an impact on price.

I collect silver, i dont envy the lot of a penny collector.....i couldnt live with some of the poor coins that command premium prices.

Ski

[Peter 615]

My thoughts exactly...The coin has to have eye appeal or it won't get my attention.I don't like edge knocks or poor strikes.

When I was a lad everyone wanted 1950,51 & 53 1d's now they are belly up.

Thanks to Chingford (John) I now have Bramah and his take on copper from 1929.A great read.

[Coinery 1,153]

I collect silver, i dont envy the lot of a penny collector.....i couldnt live with some of the poor coins that command premium prices.

Ski

says he who has been banging up above average pennies like they're going out of fashion!

[Coinery 1,153]

I collect silver, i dont envy the lot of a penny collector.....i couldnt live with some of the poor coins that command premium prices.

Ski

says he who has been banging up above average pennies like they're going out of fashion!

Oops, having a senior moment there, Ski, getting you all confused with pies offerings! Sorry!

[pies 33]

I collect silver, i dont envy the lot of a penny collector.....i couldnt live with some of the poor coins that command premium prices.

Ski

says he who has been banging up above average pennies like they're going out of fashion!

Oops, having a senior moment there, Ski, getting you all confused with pies offerings! Sorry!

You must be having another senior moment ive only bought a couple

[Paulus 1,975]

I collect silver, i dont envy the lot of a penny collector.....i couldnt live with some of the poor coins that command premium prices.

Ski

says he who has been banging up above average pennies like they're going out of fashion!

Oops, having a senior moment there, Ski, getting you all confused with pies offerings! Sorry!

You must be having another senior moment ive only bought a couple

Plus the new one from CC today that you have just displayed (I assume you have bought it, or are you just showing off some dealers' coins on here?!)

[pies 33]

Bought !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK thats 3 coins

[1949threepence 3,367]

The only reason I might consider getting a coin slabbed, is if I was considering selling it.

Otherwise I don't need any official confirmation ot grade. I buy what I like the look of, regardless of exact grade.

[Peckris 579]

The only reason I might consider getting a coin slabbed, is if I was considering selling it.

Otherwise I don't need any official confirmation ot grade. I buy what I like the look of, regardless of exact grade.

Me too. And if everyone thought like us, it really wouldn't matter how CGS grade coins - people would buy purely on what the coin looks like.

[1949threepence 3,367]

The only reason I might consider getting a coin slabbed, is if I was considering selling it.

Otherwise I don't need any official confirmation ot grade. I buy what I like the look of, regardless of exact grade.

Me too. And if everyone thought like us, it really wouldn't matter how CGS grade coins - people would buy purely on what the coin looks like.

Precisely, Peck.

[ski 1]

okay Mr coinery.......now go take a good lie down

[ski 1]

incidentally.....one of the few pennies i have is also one of the few slabs i have

cgs uin 5940......an ordinary dies 6+g 1863. a lovely chocolate brown coin.

Ski

[azda 979]

The only reason I might consider getting a coin slabbed, is if I was considering selling it.

Otherwise I don't need any official confirmation ot grade. I buy what I like the look of, regardless of exact grade.

Me too. And if everyone thought like us, it really wouldn't matter how CGS grade coins - people would buy purely on what the coin looks like.

Or if its one they must have

[TomGoodheart 400]

i always make my own assessmnet of grade of any coin i wish to buy, i then choose to buy or not at the price offered or barter... i dont always get it right, but over the years ive got better.

i think youre right that grades do vary with rarity of a coin,

Ski

And, I would add, grades possibly also vary with 'eye appeal' (which as discussed before is in part at least, related to where the wear on the coin is worst).

Interestingly a dealer's catalogue dropped through my door just this morning and (unusually for me) I decided to have a look at the grades given. Two coins in particular caught my eye, the first (from the photos) has a slightly less full flan (we're talking hammered here) and fairly clear wear to the bust. The other is fuller and the bust is nice and crisp on the hair and crown and correspondingly on the shield on the reverse.

The point being that they are graded the same (both VF) but I can't help being swayed by the fact that, to me, one is 'prettier' than the other.

Where am I going with this? Not sure! Just that I suspect I'd be swayed to 'upgrade' the nicer looking coin and would perhaps struggle to even out assessing the % wear and liking the coin. And probably if it was an ugly but very well struck example, .. the reverse would be true.

So on the one hand I can see that a consistently critical approach (if possible, sticking the thing in a machine and getting a number out the other end would perhaps be the most logical method) would be ideal. But on the other .... do we not all get a degree of pleasure from the 'look' of our coins (the patina, design, sharpness of detail, 'artfulness' or whatever) that, although related to grade (since better struck coins show off the engraver's skill and intentions better) is not something someone else can necessarily gauge for us?

Sorry. I shouldn't be allowed to post think before I've had my morning coffee!

Edited March 23, 2013 by TomGoodheart