Forgery Elizabeth I Martlet Shilling

[Coinery 1,156]

Warwick & Warwick 15th August 2012, Sale 700, Lot 490 (£200 + juice)!

I never even looked at this coin properly until today, when I was just about to make it available for sale.

I even got so far as to catalogue it BCW MR-4Gi:b1, before putting it on the scales to add the final touch to the description...4.32g, and for a good grade. Bugger, I thought, not a good omen!

So, gentlemen, here we have an electrotype MR-4Gi:b1 shilling of Elizabeth I...that'll be TWO fakes I managed to buy at the W&W sale last August though, fortunately, I managed to spot the other in a bulk lot before leaving the building!

Feast your eyes...what's it worth? Has anyone seen enough sell in the past to give me a rough percentage of the value of the genuine article?

[Coinery 1,156]

Warwick & Warwick 15th August 2012, Sale 700, Lot 490 (£200 + juice)!

I never even looked at this coin properly until today, when I was just about to make it available for sale.

I even got so far as to catalogue it BCW MR-4Gi:b1, before putting it on the scales to add the final touch to the description...4.32g, and for a good grade. Bugger, I thought, not a good omen!

So, gentlemen, here we have an electrotype MR-4Gi:b1 shilling of Elizabeth I...that'll be TWO fakes I managed to buy at the W&W sale last August though, fortunately, I managed to spot the other in a bulk lot before leaving the building!

Feast your eyes...what's it worth? Has anyone seen enough sell in the past to give me a rough percentage of the value of the genuine article?

By way of my excuse for not spotting it earlier I should perhaps add that, when looking at the coin in life size (you'd barely be able to fit the Martlet on the original at this scale), it looks significantly more convincing!

[argentumandcoins 70]

Well Stuart, they are BNTA members, soooo..... in theory you should be able to get your money back as they have sold you a fake. On the other hand I did hear a rumour that the BNTA naughty boy commitee were threatening to kick them out a couple of years ago for being a bunch of shoddy b******s, so shoddy in fact that they attempted to sell (via auction) the stock that was stolen from another well known Birmingham dealer following a robbery after a Birmingham fair, even AFTER he told them that it was stolen property........... Good luck old bean!

[Coinery 1,156]

Could be worth an email, John, I won't hold my breath though!

Does anyone know/understand the technology involved in the production of such a coin, that might give a broad date to the manufacture, or a post ???? date at least?

I presume these are mostly one-offs, or could I expect to find others of the same moulds out there?

[azda 979]

Sounds like one to steer clear of then

[Rob 3,152]

Sounds like one to steer clear of then

What? Warwick and Warwick?

[azda 979]

Sounds like one to steer clear of then

What? Warwick and Warwick?

Aye, judging by what John has mentioned

[argentumandcoins 70]

Sounds like one to steer clear of then

What? Warwick and Warwick?

Aye, judging by what John has mentioned

Methinks Rob had tongue firmly planted in cheek Dave

Their grading alone is on a par with the majority of ebay graders (that was the reason that the BNTA had their pants down) and they have certainly been known to slip in fail to notice a couple of forgeries of rarish coins in bulk lots to catch out the unwary!

[Rob 3,152]

Sounds like one to steer clear of then

What? Warwick and Warwick?

Aye, judging by what John has mentioned

Methinks Rob had tongue firmly planted in cheek Dave

Their grading alone is on a par with the majority of ebay graders (that was the reason that the BNTA had their pants down) and they have certainly been known to slip in fail to notice a couple of forgeries of rarish coins in bulk lots to catch out the unwary!

Not to mention their refusal to ever list corrections. As a consequence you get things selling as the genuine article even though they have been told it isn't. They had a Cnut penny, allegedly from Hertford except that the legend alluded to a Hastings coin, or at least Haesti used to be Hastings when I was learning. No mention, mainly because the unrecorded penny was always going to make much more than a common type. Or two George III pattern halfpennies that were glaring Peck number gaps in my collection. Not a chance the description was accurate, with one of them being the gold painted currency piece noted a few years back by both Matt and myself. Or VF coins described as uncs.

It is impossible to over-emphasise the need to view in person.

[azda 979]

Well its not an auction house i've used or ever intend to use now, thanks for the info, although it amazes me that they're still in Business.

[Rob 3,152]

I would still buy the right piece from them based on a personal assessment of what was on offer, just don't bid blind.

[Peckris 579]

Well its not an auction house i've used or ever intend to use now, thanks for the info, although it amazes me that they're still in Business.

I went to all their sales in the late 90s, and (with a certain amount of tuition from Peter Viola), always found their sales to be representative of one of the larger and better provincial salerooms. But clearly they have gone downhill since the rise of eBay by all accounts.

[Coinery 1,156]

Well Stuart, they are BNTA members, soooo..... in theory you should be able to get your money back as they have sold you a fake. On the other hand I did hear a rumour that the BNTA naughty boy commitee were threatening to kick them out a couple of years ago for being a bunch of shoddy b******s, so shoddy in fact that they attempted to sell (via auction) the stock that was stolen from another well known Birmingham dealer following a robbery after a Birmingham fair, even AFTER he told them that it was stolen property........... Good luck old bean!

Email sent off today, they'll end up blacklisting me for sure, I've already got a credit with them for the fake I pulled out of a 15-coin lot before going home.

I just wish they kept their catalogue images in an online database, I'd be home and dry then! They could so easily just brush me off should they 'conveniently' lose their own records of the images!

[azda 979]

I normally save the images of coins i've won until they arrive home and been looked over.

[Coinery 1,156]

Full Refund!

Richard Beale, thank-you very much!

Can't complain about that service!

[TomGoodheart 403]

Full Refund!

Richard Beale, thank-you very much!

Can't complain about that service!

Oh well, that's a good result! Both for you and in customer service terms, for them.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Full Refund!

Richard Beale, thank-you very much!

Can't complain about that service!

I'll just take a 10% commission for use as an advisory service Stuart

[Coinery 1,156]

Full Refund!

Richard Beale, thank-you very much!

Can't complain about that service!

I'll just take a 10% commission for use as an advisory service Stuart

Just laid your 10% at the foot of the Gods, John! They say they bring plenty big Tay fish for you, and the finest single malt flowing freely both day and night!

I asked about girls and they told me not to push it for £23!

[Peter 615]

Great result Stuart.

A bit of advice....check earlier.

With hammered it can be more difficult but not impossible.

I'm having a lovely coin Good Friday and feel it might last to Monday...2060 I will be 99.

[Coinery 1,156]

A bit of advice....check earlier.

Yes!

I had a big buying splurge that month, and just took it for granted, slipping it away in my E1 box for later attention. I never liked the significant lefthand obverse clip, so always had it in my mind to pull it back out and sell it at some point.

7 months later is not a good time to retrieve it and give it a proper look over. I feel pretty blessed by the W&W email...I will be going there in April to check-out some bulk, and single 20thC pieces (no E1 for sale this time, unfortunately).

Have a Good Friday...viva la successes in coining! Thanks, Peter!

[Peter 615]

I have several boxes. In out and shake it all about.My in box needs some work as does my out box...Oh well there goes Easter.