How many 20thC micro-collectors are there?

[Coinery 1,156]

I've sure Dave will be able to add, based loosely on book sales, but how many micro-variety collectors do you think there are out there?

I'm guessing the micro-gurus, Nick, Declan, Bob, & VS, could also have some ideas based upon their sense of competition for the coins?

I'm speculating here, but I'm presuming the 20th century collectors are all using the DG Bible as their reference, with it being Davies and a bit more?

I personally stop at the D numbers at present, but I do wonder at the rate of expansion into the Groom field?

Edited April 17, 2013 by Coinery

[Peckris 579]

I've sure Dave will be able to add, based loosely on book sales, but how many micro-variety collectors do you think there are out there?

I'm guessing the micro-gurus, Nick, Declan & VS, could also have some ideas based upon their sense of competition for the coins?

I'm speculating here, but I'm presuming the 20th century collectors are all using the DG Bible as their reference, with it being Davies and a bit more?

I personally stop at the D numbers at present, but I do wonder at the rate of expansion into the Groom field?

Wow, this begs SO many questions!

1. What do you define a micro-variety?

2. How do you distinguish between completists and rarity hunters?

3. Do publications create variety hunters on their own?

My own definition would be this, taking the 1903 'open 3' penny as an example: I would almost define it as a micro-variety, except that it's fairly recognisable once you see it. But, I only wanted one because it's rare, in other words I wasn't in the slightest bit interested in being a completist (which is why the 1905 and 1937 penny varieties leave me cold, and I would define THOSE as 'micros'. Same with the 1959S shilling varieties, which to me are the ultimate in pointlessness, being neither rare, nor exactly easy to spot.

But I admit, the boundaries are a bit fluid. I like to have both 1940 pennies, as one is much scarcer than the other, but on the other hand it's not the most obvious thing to see. So I suppose the answer for me is, it all depends on the variety in question, especially its rarity, before my interest is piqued.

[RLC35 288]

Coinery, Add me to the list for Bronze!

[Ozzy14 0]

Hi guys how much would an open 3 1903 penny cost as im looking for one and dont want to pay over the odds for one?

[Peckris 579]

Hi guys how much would an open 3 1903 penny cost as im looking for one and dont want to pay over the odds for one?

They don't crop up very often, and then only in grades from Fair up to GF. If you found a Fair example for £50 you'd be doing well, but try to avoid paying much over £99. As for F or better examples, those go for far more - you're looking at a couple of hundred minimum, maybe £300 or thereabouts. Bottom line - they go for what someone is prepared to pay.

[Coinery 1,156]

I've sure Dave will be able to add, based loosely on book sales, but how many micro-variety collectors do you think there are out there?

I'm guessing the micro-gurus, Nick, Declan & VS, could also have some ideas based upon their sense of competition for the coins?

I'm speculating here, but I'm presuming the 20th century collectors are all using the DG Bible as their reference, with it being Davies and a bit more?

I personally stop at the D numbers at present, but I do wonder at the rate of expansion into the Groom field?

Wow, this begs SO many questions!

3. Do publications create variety hunters on their own?

Yes, this is kind of what I'm driving at, but more succinctly put by you, do publications create the variety hunter? If they do then, for the 20thC, there would only be a number less than the number of books Dave has sold, at least for the extra varieties he has identified, presumeably?

I guess micro-variety could be defined as anything that sets it aside from its primary classification though, as you say, it's a very wooly boundary?

From a collecting point of view, I'm thinking a variety collector would feed from a book, say Davies, and then expand on that further with the extra Groom's, and if a further catalogue arrives with even greater reduction, then I'm sure someone will collect them too, as a completist?

Something I've noticed, which is quite bizarre, is that an unrecorded variety attracts considerably less attention than a catalogued one, even though you might speculate that the unrecorded is potentially rarer!

[Coinery 1,156]

Coinery, Add me to the list for Bronze!

I'm guessing the micro-gurus, Nick, Declan, Bob, & VS, could also have some ideas based upon their sense of competition for the coins?

[Ozzy14 0]

Cheers im going to keep looking for one and maybe grab a bargin one day, im not looking for the best example as iv got a ver nice 1903 penny i just want one because its rare to tell the truth.Same as the 1926 me penny as well.

[Coinery 1,156]

Hi guys how much would an open 3 1903 penny cost as im looking for one and dont want to pay over the odds for one?

There's a forum member with one on eBay presently!

[Ozzy14 0]

1366230398' post='84715']

1366229710' post='84710']

Hi guys how much would an open 3 1903 penny cost as im looking for one and dont want to pay over the odds for one?

There's a forum member with one on eBay presently!

Thanks ill check it out

[Peckris 579]

I've sure Dave will be able to add, based loosely on book sales, but how many micro-variety collectors do you think there are out there?

I'm guessing the micro-gurus, Nick, Declan & VS, could also have some ideas based upon their sense of competition for the coins?

I'm speculating here, but I'm presuming the 20th century collectors are all using the DG Bible as their reference, with it being Davies and a bit more?

I personally stop at the D numbers at present, but I do wonder at the rate of expansion into the Groom field?

Wow, this begs SO many questions!

3. Do publications create variety hunters on their own?

Yes, this is kind of what I'm driving at, but more succinctly put by you, do publications create the variety hunter? If they do then, for the 20thC, there would only be a number less than the number of books Dave has sold, at least for the extra varieties he has identified, presumeably?

I guess micro-variety could be defined as anything that sets it aside from its primary classification though, as you say, it's a very wooly boundary?

From a collecting point of view, I'm thinking a variety collector would feed from a book, say Davies, and then expand on that further with the extra Groom's, and if a further catalogue arrives with even greater reduction, then I'm sure someone will collect them too, as a completist?

Something I've noticed, which is quite bizarre, is that an unrecorded variety attracts considerably less attention than a catalogued one, even though you might speculate that the unrecorded is potentially rarer!

You think? I wonder. 'Notoriety' (i.e. publication) breeds a reputation, based on which collectors emerge, hungry for that variety. Whereas the unrecorded variety is - almost by definition - not so well known and therefore there would be fewer collectors for it.

[declanwmagee 122]

I'm a completist really, which naturally draws you into being a rarity hunter, because the rarities become the gaps that pathologically speaking, HAVE to be filled. Hence, to the likes of me who is beyond hope, the 1905 penny varieties are just as important as the 1903 penny varieties. A gap there would actually be more important to fill because there's no rarity excuse!

Books definitely change things. I can't be the only one who adds a variety to the must-have list as soon as he knows about it. The more books like Mr Grooms that reach the public the better as far as I'm concerned, because I'm afraid they don't sell well in the 20th century series. I can usually get decent prices if I stick them in the Shop and wait - eventually another autistic completist will come along, but if I put them in the auctions I can almost guarantee disappointment. I had a lovely D.2121 1946 1+B shilling go the other day for a cruel £3.97, which I paid £13 for 18 months ago. I had to have it, back then, you see, because it was a gapfill for me. Even though I trumpeted its different status to the normal 1946, it's unlikely that the buyer gave a hoot about the micro - it was just a top grade silver shilling. 1+B is £6 (1982) in Davies, compared to £2.50 for the usual type, which gives you an idea of relative scarcity.

Try to get anyone interested in Elizabeth II micros and you're onto a hiding to nothing.

Bronze, I think, is a bit different. Freeman numbers seem to carry more weight than Davies numbers. Even recessed ears, not even given F. numbers, seem to fly off the shelves even at VF level. Maybe because they're in CCGB? That would be an interesting study - which micros are in which books, and thus which books stimulate more sales. Spink of course, made 1920/21 silver dead easy to sell when they started including the varieties there. I know they got them wrong, Peck, but that didn't seem to matter. Any publicity is good publicity!

[Accumulator 52]

I guess Freeman numbers would cover micro-varieties, so you can add me to that list

[Coinery 1,156]

I guess Freeman numbers would cover micro-varieties, so you can add me to that list

Does anyone know off the top of their head what our DG added to the Freeman and Davies catalogue?

Just out of interest, Steve, do you also draw the line at the F numbers, or do you fish out the extra Gouby's and Groom's?

[declanwmagee 122]

I guess Freeman numbers would cover micro-varieties, so you can add me to that list

Does anyone know off the top of their head what our DG added to the Freeman and Davies catalogue?

Just out of interest, Steve, do you also draw the line at the F numbers, or do you fish out the extra Gouby's and Groom's?

1959 1/S

1944 1d

1918 farthings

1915/16 recessed ears

1912 halfpennies

1911 6d

1911 1d

1911 halfpennies

1911 farthings

1906 1/-

1904 1/-

1903 1/-

off the top of my head (kinda).

Sorry if I missed any, Dave!

[Coinery 1,156]

I guess Freeman numbers would cover micro-varieties, so you can add me to that list

Does anyone know off the top of their head what our DG added to the Freeman and Davies catalogue?

Just out of interest, Steve, do you also draw the line at the F numbers, or do you fish out the extra Gouby's and Groom's?

1959 1/S

1944 1d

1918 farthings

1915/16 recessed ears

1912 halfpennies

1911 6d

1911 1d

1911 halfpennies

1911 farthings

1906 1/-

1904 1/-

1903 1/-

off the top of my head (kinda).

Sorry if I missed any, Dave!

Crikey, Declan, that's an impressive response time! Thanks for that!

[1949threepence 3,367]

Hi guys how much would an open 3 1903 penny cost as im looking for one and dont want to pay over the odds for one?

They don't crop up very often, and then only in grades from Fair up to GF. If you found a Fair example for £50 you'd be doing well, but try to avoid paying much over £99. As for F or better examples, those go for far more - you're looking at a couple of hundred minimum, maybe £300 or thereabouts. Bottom line - they go for what someone is prepared to pay.

Never seen one above fine ~ although the one posted by David RJ a few weeks ago came pretty close to VF.

[1949threepence 3,367]

I've sure Dave will be able to add, based loosely on book sales, but how many micro-variety collectors do you think there are out there?

I'm guessing the micro-gurus, Nick, Declan, Bob, & VS, could also have some ideas based upon their sense of competition for the coins?

I'm speculating here, but I'm presuming the 20th century collectors are all using the DG Bible as their reference, with it being Davies and a bit more?

I personally stop at the D numbers at present, but I do wonder at the rate of expansion into the Groom field?

I think much depends on how you define "micro variety" Stuart.

For me personally the difference to standard has to be either plainly visible to the naked eye, or such a notorious rarity, that although you need a magnifier to see it properly, doesn't matter so much........

.....and I'm still stuck in the nineteenth century.....

[DaveG38 405]

When I decided to produce my two books, there were two basic criteria that had interested and to some extent confused me for some time. Firstly different books, including CCGB, Davies, Freeman, Salzman etc. all seemed to recognise and mention a number of varieties, but there was no consistency about exactly what they each included, although Davies comes closest to covering all the known varieties of silver.

Secondly I wanted to bring together all the descriptors for each variety. This was necessary as the different sources tended to describe the varieties by reference to different characteristics. It also wasn't clear whether the varieties being referred to were the same or actually many different ones. So, I brought together all the different descriptions and checked them against actual specimens so that it would be possible for collectors to identify their coins, even if in very worn condition.

That was the motivation, but I did come up against the problem of deciding exactly what a variety is, and when a type outside of the defined limits became one by virtue of the sheer number of specimens known, or where the type is well established e.g. the 1946 dot penny. So it wasn't an exact science, but I believe I have captured most of the known types. Having said this, I have a number of minor additions to both books, based on more recent discoveries after the books were published. When I have enough material and I can find the enthusiasm for it, I'll probably produce a second edition. If I do this, I also wondered if it would be helpful to have a table of all the types with descriptors at the back for easy reference.

Another possible option would be to put the data on line on a private website and then design an App (I can't, but I know a man who can) to allow instant download of the descriptions. In this way, if someone is at a coin fair, auction, boot fair etc. and doesn't want to take books with them, they can simply use the app to get the data instantly through their smart phone.

[ski 1]

im not a completist but i do have a few microvarities,ive not searched out such coins as must haves, more just bought them at fairs when ive seen them, so i think pecks original post here reflects where im at.

im not sure that the number of daves books sold is a good indicator of numbers of collectors of micro varities. my reason for saying this is just that i wouldnt care really if i didnt have any micro varities, but i bought daves book (silver) out of interest for the coins i collect, and what a marvellous read it was and a great referance book too, i also have to admit to adjusting the tickets on some of my coins with the die parings............damn i may be a micro collector after all

like the sound of that app Dave.

[Coinery 1,156]

im not a completist but i do have a few microvarities,ive not searched out such coins as must haves, more just bought them at fairs when ive seen them, so i think pecks original post here reflects where im at.

im not sure that the number of daves books sold is a good indicator of numbers of collectors of micro varities. my reason for saying this is just that i wouldnt care really if i didnt have any micro varities, but i bought daves book (silver) out of interest for the coins i collect, and what a marvellous read it was and a great referanceo book too, i also have to admit to adjusting the tickets on some of my coins with the die parings............damn i may be a micro collector after all

like the sound of that app Dave.

What I am curious about, and now making reference to the list that Declan put up, is the number of people who actually collect those particular additions, to determine the number of people who are actively collecting the newly catalogued varieties of the 20thC?

As we have loosely established that varieties only tend to be collected when catalogued in print, I was thinking the number of collectors of the new Groom additions, for example, would not likely exceed the number of copies distributed. A correlation must exist between new publications distributed AND the number of active collectors of the new varieties contained within it?

Everson might also be another good contender here. I wonder how many farthing collectors actually collect the E numbers? Or do they collect the BMC varieties and list the E numbers just because they are available, much like SKI does by adding the Groom die-pairings?

I'd pay for an app. Dave!

Edited April 17, 2013 by Coinery

[Rob 3,152]

There are more out there than you realise, but then there are a lot more collectors than just those that frequent the forum as has been discussed previously. I would say I probably encounter about one new variety collector a month at the Midland, which when you consider the limited number of people you meet in the few hours available is quite a lot. There may well be more, but as the stock response is 'Just browsing', I don't know what they collect and to what level.

[Nick 329]

I've sure Dave will be able to add, based loosely on book sales, but how many micro-variety collectors do you think there are out there?

I'm guessing the micro-gurus, Nick, Declan, Bob, & VS, could also have some ideas based upon their sense of competition for the coins?

I'm speculating here, but I'm presuming the 20th century collectors are all using the DG Bible as their reference, with it being Davies and a bit more?

I personally stop at the D numbers at present, but I do wonder at the rate of expansion into the Groom field?

It's difficult to say, but I suspect there are quite a few. I know that there always seems to be a fair bit of competition on eBay for varieties, but you can rarely know what is the motivation behind other people's bids - unless you get outbid by Declan, Gary D or chocophilebcp (which I have many times).

I use Davies as my usual reference (with Groom for clarification where Davies is unclear), but I can't get excited about larger/smaller reverse or chamfered rim varieties.

[Coinery 1,156]

There are more out there than you realise, but then there are a lot more collectors than just those that frequent the forum as has been discussed previously. I would say I probably encounter about one new variety collector a month at the Midland, which when you consider the limited number of people you meet in the few hours available is quite a lot. There may well be more, but as the stock response is 'Just browsing', I don't know what they collect and to what level.

It's a shame these figures can't be meaningfully gathered, as Tesco's might gather their percentage customers buying Tetley against PG Tips!

Are you going to have a table in September?

[VickySilver 830]

Not to mention the "crew" being occasionally a sensitive lot, not letting on as to what they might be up to! LOL!

I have been rather glad to not have consistent competition on proofs and patterns in the 20 th C. silver series, but

even these have been drawing some unwanted competition (read prices)...

I think, as has been pointed out, that when the simple currency issues are not that interesting that there is a bit of a lean

toward scarcer varietals. I like to think I DO NOT collect these, but that would be untrue as I got up in edge varietals on the

crowns....Darn..

So are there are a couple of hundred out there collecting such, it would not surprise me...