Interesting and UNSUBSTANTIATED Gossip!

[VickySilver 830]

Let me start by saying I have not verified this story. However it does ring a bit scary in the current paranoid environment, combining those "evil" Chinese AND the TPGs!

What? Well, I was just yesterday at the Baltimore show (rather small Summer version), and heard a snippet: "Have you heard the latest about the PCGS office in China?"

The unnamed dealer proceeded to outline what may be the latest scam. Evidently one of the Chinese graders has been buying [at least] Fat Man Dollars graded MS64, and

then having friends submit them whereupon he delivers out "66" and "67" grades...

I tried to listen in for more details without appearing to be the nosey that I was, and could only gather that the grader had some sort of nickname with "dragon" in it...

OK, I apologise for shameless gossip, but even as a sometime supporter of the TPG concept was a bit disturbed by this - although, not all that surprised and thankful that

at least if true that it was not more counterfeits being passed off.

All, of which yet again confirms that the buyer should buy the coin first, not the labelled number slab...

[Sword 1,473]

Let me start by saying I have not verified this story. However it does ring a bit scary in the current paranoid environment, combining those "evil" Chinese AND the TPGs!

What? Well, I was just yesterday at the Baltimore show (rather small Summer version), and heard a snippet: "Have you heard the latest about the PCGS office in China?"

The unnamed dealer proceeded to outline what may be the latest scam. Evidently one of the Chinese graders has been buying [at least] Fat Man Dollars graded MS64, and

then having friends submit them whereupon he delivers out "66" and "67" grades...

I tried to listen in for more details without appearing to be the nosey that I was, and could only gather that the grader had some sort of nickname with "dragon" in it...

OK, I apologise for shameless gossip, but even as a sometime supporter of the TPG concept was a bit disturbed by this - although, not all that surprised and thankful that

at least if true that it was not more counterfeits being passed off.

All, of which yet again confirms that the buyer should buy the coin first, not the labelled number slab...

It is potentially a concern but scams like this are not so easy to run. Firstly, there are 2 graders for each coin and you need at least a partner in crime. Also it might be difficult for the rouge grader to ensure that those coins get to him and not another grader not in the scam. You get people in all trades and professions worldwide committing fraud and abusing their positions and we can only hope they get caught sooner or later.

Absolutely right that one should buy the coin and not the holder!

[Peckris 579]

Let me start by saying I have not verified this story. However it does ring a bit scary in the current paranoid environment, combining those "evil" Chinese AND the TPGs!

What? Well, I was just yesterday at the Baltimore show (rather small Summer version), and heard a snippet: "Have you heard the latest about the PCGS office in China?"

The unnamed dealer proceeded to outline what may be the latest scam. Evidently one of the Chinese graders has been buying [at least] Fat Man Dollars graded MS64, and

then having friends submit them whereupon he delivers out "66" and "67" grades...

I tried to listen in for more details without appearing to be the nosey that I was, and could only gather that the grader had some sort of nickname with "dragon" in it...

OK, I apologise for shameless gossip, but even as a sometime supporter of the TPG concept was a bit disturbed by this - although, not all that surprised and thankful that

at least if true that it was not more counterfeits being passed off.

All, of which yet again confirms that the buyer should buy the coin first, not the labelled number slab...

It is potentially a concern but scams like this are not so easy to run. Firstly, there are 2 graders for each coin and you need at least a partner in crime. Also it might be difficult for the rouge grader to ensure that those coins get to him and not another grader not in the scam. You get people in all trades and professions worldwide committing fraud and abusing their positions and we can only hope they get caught sooner or later.

Absolutely right that one should buy the coin and not the holder!

They're all Reds, those Commie Chinese

[Sword 1,473]

Let me start by saying I have not verified this story. However it does ring a bit scary in the current paranoid environment, combining those "evil" Chinese AND the TPGs!

What? Well, I was just yesterday at the Baltimore show (rather small Summer version), and heard a snippet: "Have you heard the latest about the PCGS office in China?"

The unnamed dealer proceeded to outline what may be the latest scam. Evidently one of the Chinese graders has been buying [at least] Fat Man Dollars graded MS64, and

then having friends submit them whereupon he delivers out "66" and "67" grades...

I tried to listen in for more details without appearing to be the nosey that I was, and could only gather that the grader had some sort of nickname with "dragon" in it...

OK, I apologise for shameless gossip, but even as a sometime supporter of the TPG concept was a bit disturbed by this - although, not all that surprised and thankful that

at least if true that it was not more counterfeits being passed off.

All, of which yet again confirms that the buyer should buy the coin first, not the labelled number slab...

It is potentially a concern but scams like this are not so easy to run. Firstly, there are 2 graders for each coin and you need at least a partner in crime. Also it might be difficult for the rouge grader to ensure that those coins get to him and not another grader not in the scam. You get people in all trades and professions worldwide committing fraud and abusing their positions and we can only hope they get caught sooner or later.

Absolutely right that one should buy the coin and not the holder!

They're all Reds, those Commie Chinese

Alright Peck,

[azda 979]

Ok, just my tuppence worth. ANYTHING with the words CHINA, COIN and TPG; geezus, the whole TPG is a fecking joke now in my eyes......Lets not Forget that NGC HAVE slabbed fakes of UK COINS, Need we say more. Stay away from coins slabbed by American TPGs as they obviously know fook all

Edited June 23, 2013 by azda

[azda 979]

Let me start by saying I have not verified this story. However it does ring a bit scary in the current paranoid environment, combining those "evil" Chinese AND the TPGs!

What? Well, I was just yesterday at the Baltimore show (rather small Summer version), and heard a snippet: "Have you heard the latest about the PCGS office in China?"

The unnamed dealer proceeded to outline what may be the latest scam. Evidently one of the Chinese graders has been buying [at least] Fat Man Dollars graded MS64, and

then having friends submit them whereupon he delivers out "66" and "67" grades...

I tried to listen in for more details without appearing to be the nosey that I was, and could only gather that the grader had some sort of nickname with "dragon" in it...

OK, I apologise for shameless gossip, but even as a sometime supporter of the TPG concept was a bit disturbed by this - although, not all that surprised and thankful that

at least if true that it was not more counterfeits being passed off.

All, of which yet again confirms that the buyer should buy the coin first, not the labelled number slab...

It is potentially a concern but scams like this are not so easy to run. Firstly, there are 2 graders for each coin and you need at least a partner in crime. Also it might be difficult for the rouge grader to ensure that those coins get to him and not another grader not in the scam. You get people in all trades and professions worldwide committing fraud and abusing their positions and we can only hope they get caught sooner or later.

Absolutely right that one should buy the coin and not the holder!

Sword, you know this from where? we're talking about American/Chinese TPGs and not CGS, so where's your info coming from dude?

[VickySilver 830]

I do NOT trust the TPGs when they say they have three graders or seven or whatever...

[argentumandcoins 70]

"Trust nobody Mr Mulder"

[Sword 1,473]

Let me start by saying I have not verified this story. However it does ring a bit scary in the current paranoid environment, combining those "evil" Chinese AND the TPGs!

What? Well, I was just yesterday at the Baltimore show (rather small Summer version), and heard a snippet: "Have you heard the latest about the PCGS office in China?"

The unnamed dealer proceeded to outline what may be the latest scam. Evidently one of the Chinese graders has been buying [at least] Fat Man Dollars graded MS64, and

then having friends submit them whereupon he delivers out "66" and "67" grades...

I tried to listen in for more details without appearing to be the nosey that I was, and could only gather that the grader had some sort of nickname with "dragon" in it...

OK, I apologise for shameless gossip, but even as a sometime supporter of the TPG concept was a bit disturbed by this - although, not all that surprised and thankful that

at least if true that it was not more counterfeits being passed off.

All, of which yet again confirms that the buyer should buy the coin first, not the labelled number slab...

It is potentially a concern but scams like this are not so easy to run. Firstly, there are 2 graders for each coin and you need at least a partner in crime. Also it might be difficult for the rouge grader to ensure that those coins get to him and not another grader not in the scam. You get people in all trades and professions worldwide committing fraud and abusing their positions and we can only hope they get caught sooner or later.

Absolutely right that one should buy the coin and not the holder!

Sword, you know this from where? we're talking about American/Chinese TPGs and not CGS, so where's your info coming from dude?

Azda, I am not certain what you meant by "my information".

Like most people, I don’t buy coins originating from dealers based in China because the authorities there have failed to control coin faking.

But what is being alleged here? One individual grader in a TPG company is fraudulent. I merely pointed out the obvious that there are fraudulent individuals working in all trades and professions at the cost of clients / consumers. This is of concern of course but not something that can be eliminated. You are less likely to be cheated if you take precautions.

Then I merely said that it take more than a one person to make a scam work. TPGs state that 2 or more graders are involved in grading and I have no reason to doubt that information.

Then the final point is whether a PCGS office based in China is less trustworthy than one based in American or Paris. (By the way, I didn't even know that there is a PGCS office in China until now). It is quite like asking if it matters whether a SONY is made in China, Japan, Hong Kong or UK (I assume these places make SONY...). If you trust SONY’s reputation in quality control, then you are probably not too bothered. But if you don’t trust SONY’s quality and reputation, then it also hardly matter because you won’t buy anyway.

As you don’t like PCGS regardless, then I guess this story makes little difference to you. As for me, I think it is just as likely to find such individuals in anywhere and I am not too excited either.

As people are constantly pointing out, trust yourself rather than the slab. There is no better rule than that. (But I won't stay away from a nice coin just because it is slabbed)

I have recently brought my first CGS coin from auction and made the mistake of trusting CGS’s PHOTO and not even the grade (The auction photo was poor). The coin turned out to be a turkey as a carbon sport has developed on the nose of the King since encapsulation. As it was a relatively low value coin, I put it down to experience.

[Coinery 1,153]

The coin turned out to be a turkey as a carbon sport has developed on the nose of the King since encapsulation. As it was a relatively low value coin, I put it down to experience.

This harks back to one of my biggest gripes with the slabbing principle...what ticking time-bombs are being locked away with the coins? Not that I'd want to stir that old debate up again!

[Peter 615]

Now now Stuart

A TPG knows more than than me on my subject?

It ain't going to happen.

I think I know my raw collection.

[Coinery 1,153]

Now now Stuart

A TPG knows more than than me on my subject?

It ain't going to happen.

I think I know my raw collection.

[TomGoodheart 402]

Interestingly I was wondering about a variant of this just yesterday. Buy an MS65 and say an MS67 coin. Find yourself a slab, re-encapsulate the MS65 with the MS67 labels. Resubmit the MS67 raw for re-slabbing. If you can find some of those nice green CAC beans to add ...

... let the money roll in.

Which is my way of saying that this whole slabbing thing, like anything else, is only a good idea until someone thinks of a way of using it to rip people off.

[Sword 1,473]

Interestingly I was wondering about a variant of this just yesterday. Buy an MS65 and say an MS67 coin. Find yourself a slab, re-encapsulate the MS65 with the MS67 labels. Resubmit the MS67 raw for re-slabbing. If you can find some of those nice green CAC beans to add ...

... let the money roll in.

Which is my way of saying that this whole slabbing thing, like anything else, is only a good idea until someone thinks of a way of using it to rip people off.

What if your MS67 comes back as a MS65? :D :D Sorry, can't resist that joke.

But why the hassle? Just fake the labels and holders and then stick the coins (real or fake) in. The label is just a computer print out and even a child can fake that. People have done that for quite a few years according to wikipedia (and I have pasted the relevant paragraph below).

NGC published the following acknowledgment on January 7, 2008:

"NGC has identified and confirmed that (counterfeit replicas) of its holder has been produced.......The holder has been seen housing counterfeit dollar or foreign crown size coins. While the enclosed coins are also counterfeit, the label information matches the coin type enclosed. The label information is copied from actual NGC certification labels, and the certification information therefore will match the NGC database. Most frequently, Trade Dollars and Bust Dollars are found, although Flowing Hair Dollars and foreign coins have also been seen. A range of grades is also represented."

NGC and PCGS counterfeit holders have been reported in eBay forums and more may be reported by other firms and individuals. The PCGS website notes that they "anticipate that authentic coins will eventually be placed into counterfeit holders".

But this scam won't work for the more expensive coins that where photos were taken before encapsulation.

[Coinery 1,153]

A bit more fuel!

http://china-mint.info/forum/index.php?topic=6858.0

[Benny who 6]

PCGS I think first admited a problem in 2008,mostly copies of coins that had no pictures on the data base,so not easy to compare the coins.NGC has a similar problem.fakes seem to come in different formats

fake coin in fake holders

fake coin in fake detailed holder(makes the coin slightly more plausible,if it is not prefect ie details UNC)

real coin in upgraded fake slab MS62 as MS64 for example,a few don't even have the correct coin.

I have linked two sites that give details of the older fake slabs however the newer ones are getting better,the holograms where wrong on the older ones if you compare them you will see what I mean,without saying to much.I think PCGS are compiling a list of UINs that are fake,however not sure how that is coming along.

My link

My link

PCGS has their own report on the fakes however couldn't find it,the link above shows the same type of slabs,so gives a good general idea.

The problem with these,is that by the time they are discovered,they are on the market,and the feckers sorry fakers have begun the new improved batch,each one better than the last.I hate that a fun pass time or even full or partime job is being slowy ruined by these low lifes.

[Coinery 1,153]

For how much the TPGC's charge, ALL coins should be photographed and stored on their database, it hardly costs a great deal! Maybe they should even go to the lengths of picking out relevant details in macro?

They owe it to their own continued existence to make changes! Personally, I don't care if they tumble to the ground, it'll bring back the intelligence that's required to collect top-level coinage, and return the finest pieces back into the hands of genuine collectors, removing the banker/investor from the equation! Hallelujah, praise be to the old days, and those who really cared and connected with the artefacts they were in possession of!

[Paulus 1,975]

For how much the TPGC's charge, ALL coins should be photographed and stored on their database, it hardly costs a great deal! Maybe they should even go to the lengths of picking out relevant details in macro?

They owe it to their own continued existence to make changes! Personally, I don't care if they tumble to the ground, it'll bring back the intelligence that's required to collect top-level coinage, and return the finest pieces back into the hands of genuine collectors, removing the banker/investor from the equation! Hallelujah, praise be to the old days, and those who really cared and connected with the artefacts they were in possession of!

I couldn't agree more Stuart, I really don't believe that those that collect (especially) US slabs and grades 67-70 have the same collecting urge as we do ... which is fine, each to their own investing/collecting criteria, but right now we are increasingly (if only gradually when it comes to British / hammered) chasing after the same coins. If it was a totally separate sphere of collecting we wouldn't give a damn, would we??

[Sword 1,473]

For how much the TPGC's charge, ALL coins should be photographed and stored on their database, it hardly costs a great deal! Maybe they should even go to the lengths of picking out relevant details in macro?

They owe it to their own continued existence to make changes!

I totally agree. They can also be less bloody sloppy and not get foreign objects, dust, etc onto the coins they encapsulate

[Paulus 1,975]

For how much the TPGC's charge, ALL coins should be photographed and stored on their database, it hardly costs a great deal! Maybe they should even go to the lengths of picking out relevant details in macro?

They owe it to their own continued existence to make changes!

I totally agree. They can also be less bloody sloppy and not get foreign objects, dust, etc onto the coins they encapsulate

Or fingerprints!!!!!!!

[Rob 3,152]

For how much the TPGC's charge, ALL coins should be photographed and stored on their database, it hardly costs a great deal! Maybe they should even go to the lengths of picking out relevant details in macro?

They owe it to their own continued existence to make changes! Personally, I don't care if they tumble to the ground, it'll bring back the intelligence that's required to collect top-level coinage, and return the finest pieces back into the hands of genuine collectors, removing the banker/investor from the equation! Hallelujah, praise be to the old days, and those who really cared and connected with the artefacts they were in possession of!

I couldn't agree more Stuart, I really don't believe that those that collect (especially) US slabs and grades 67-70 have the same collecting urge as we do ... which is fine, each to their own investing/collecting criteria, but right now we are increasingly (if only gradually when it comes to British / hammered) chasing after the same coins. If it was a totally separate sphere of collecting we wouldn't give a damn, would we??

The elimination of choice pieces from your average collector's reach has always been an ongoing problem. As a prelude to this week's Spink sale, I've been doing a bit of research on the Edward VI profile groats. They aren't particularly rare as touted as I've found about a dozen decent collectable examples from different dies, but always in demand because the catalogue usually states they are rare. Montagu 826 (1896) was a nice one for example. ex Cuff (1854), Dymock, Murchison & Addington before Montagu. At the latter sale, J S Henderson paid £21 for it, which was a huge amount of money in 1896. He later bequeathed his entire collection (which was full of top grade pieces such as this) to the Fitzwilliam . As a result, collector expectations have to reduce, because the pot is smaller and of lower quality. He wasn't alone. Weightman supplied the BM with many of their copper/bronze/tin examples - see the appendix in Peck. Clarke-Thornhill allowed the BM to take what ever dies were missing from their collection before the residue was sold in 1937, also many noted in Peck but including others outside the scope of the book. It is an onging reducing supply, which is why the top pieces are flying whilst the me-toos are relatively static.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Rob