Coin News article

[Rob 3,152]

An interesting article on p.46 of this month's Coin News talking about a York shilling, which, as it is mine, offers scope for some discussion on the questions raised. This is the same coin below, and no, I didn't write or provide any input for the article.

This was reputedly found in a Jacobean chest of drawers, though I have my doubts about the full story behind it. As is obvious from the image, the coin has a flaw through the crown band which is filled with wax. According to the article, the wax was used to 'mark' the flaw, though from experience I would say that the wax is usually left from an impression taken in order to illustrate the coin in an auction catalogue or other journal in the first half of the last century. I am not convinced that the wax 'may have been placed there by the original finder in the early 1980s' as stated in the article - does anyone know a person who has done this? The question therefore is whether the coin was 'lost' in the chest of drawers for reasons we can only speculate on, or whether it was genuinely lost down the back of it centuries ago.

Unsurprisingly given the presence of the wax, a lot of midnight oil has been burnt trying to find an illustration of the coin which would clearly tick enough boxes to warrant illustrating, but sadly to no avail.I am still confident the coin will appear in a catalogue from pre-WW2 days. The colour of the wax is quite a vivid red, similar to that seen on coins illustrated in Sotheby sales from the turn of the century onwards and also in Glendining sales towards the end of the 1930s.By the 1930s, the wax used at Sothebys was considerably darker in colour. The possibility also exists that the coin was illustrated in a foreign sale [catalogue]. Likely candidates identified from old catalogues in my possession have been a bit thin on the ground. i.e. none.

Thoughts ladies and gentlemen please.

[Colin G. 147]

Can't really assist much, but what a very attractive coin!!

[azda 979]

Agreed with Colin' post, lovely coin, but with such a striking flaw i'm sure you'll come accross it sooner or later. I also think in your assesment that it's been from a foreign sale is also correct. As a matter of interest, have you asked any of the Major buyers for help? Ras, Petition crown, Roddy Richardson etc?, they may offer some light. Just a Suggestion.

P.s, is that a small bend in the 3rd quarter on the REV?

Edited July 24, 2013 by azda

[Rob 3,152]

Agreed with Colin' post, lovely coin, but with such a striking flaw i'm sure you'll come accross it sooner or later. I also think in your assesment that it's been from a foreign sale is also correct. As a matter of interest, have you asked any of the Major buyers for help? Ras, Petition crown, Roddy Richardson etc?, they may offer some light. Just a Suggestion.

P.s, is that a small bend in the 3rd quarter on the REV?

I haven't asked anyone yet, though I'm sure someone will be able to shed some light on it.

The flan is slightly uneven, but not as bad as you may think given we are talking about a coin that is struck from a rough piece of diestock. The previous incarnation of the obverse die was a halfcrown, so you get a few inconsistencies in any case on the die depending on how well it was polished down and how good the fabric of the die was.

[TomGoodheart 401]

Yes, very nice as I'm sure I've said before Rob. Evidently I've not looked very closely though, as I'm now curious about the small features in the forks of the cross ends! Any idea what those are? Pineapples? Thistles? Just decoration?

Oh, and I've not seen Coin News I'm afraid, so don't know what was discussed in the article. But I personally can't see someone using wax to highlight a flaw. Or at least, nobody I know would be likely to do that! An illustration in a catalogue seems far more likely.

And am I the only one that finds the use of what seems to be a number "2" to form the R of EBOR? It's always seemed a strange feature to my eyes.

Edited July 24, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[Rob 3,152]

Yes, very nice as I'm sure I've said before Rob. Evidently I've not looked very closely before, as I'm now curious about the small features in the forks of the cross ends! Any idea what those are? Pineapples? Thistles? Just decoration?

Oh, and I've not seen Coin News I'm afraid, so don't know what was discussed in the article. But I personally can't see someone using wax to highlight a flaw. Or at least, nobody I know would be likely to do that! An illustration in a catalogue seems far more likely.

And am I the only one that finds the use of what seems to be a number "2" to form the R of EBOR? It's always seemed a strange feature to my eyes.

The name given to them is bezants, but don't ask me where the name originates. The various marks in the forks are a recurring feature of coinage from H8 through to the end of hammered coinage. They have to mean something, and that something is likely to be an identifier for an engraver or period for example. If you compare the provincial mint coins, you see that certain punches occur in groups and this association carries through different issues in the same place or issues from different places. i.e. the basic punch set must stay with the engraver rather than the mint location.

[TomGoodheart 401]

The name given to them is bezants, but don't ask me where the name originates. The various marks in the forks are a recurring feature of coinage from H8 through to the end of hammered coinage. They have to mean something, and that something is likely to be an identifier for an engraver or period for example. If you compare the provincial mint coins, you see that certain punches occur in groups and this association carries through different issues in the same place or issues from different places. i.e. the basic punch set must stay with the engraver rather than the mint location.

Ah, very interesting! When I Wikipedia'd bezant it appears to be a heraldic term for a roundel which is gold in colour. And the use of that term derives from the medieval name for a gold coin from the Byzantine Empire!

Most edukashinul this numismatics lark!

[Nicholas 51]

I too read the story and questioned the use of wax. A superb cojn! As stated It's commonly thought to be used for impressions for past auctions which always sounded plausible to me. I've got a few coins with minute traces of red wax - better have another look...

[Nicholas 51]

Found it! But no cabinet find story....

Goldberg Sale 48, Lot 2507

http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=48&lot=2507〈=1

[azda 979]

Found it! But no cabinet find story....

Goldberg Sale 48, Lot 2507

http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=48&lot=2507〈=1

That might be the coin Rob Actually bought? I think he's looking for it before this.

[Rob 3,152]

Found it! But no cabinet find story....

Goldberg Sale 48, Lot 2507

http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=48&lot=2507〈=1

I know, that's where I bought it. I was also going to buy it in St.James's 3 where it was lot 253 (with cabinet story), but the estimate of 2500-3000 was easily surpassed by Mark Teller who paid about £4K all in. I then put a bid in at Goldbergs at the same level I was willing to pay 3 years previously and on the day of the sale came second, but 2 weeks later an invoice appeared at my max, so presumably the vendor decided to cut his losses. I would have had to pay nearly $8K for the seller to recover his/her outlay.

Now for the difficult bit. Where did the wax come from? You can see on collotype images where the depression is resulting from wax which remained stuck to the coin, so it will be obvious once the image is located.

[Rob 3,152]

I too read the story and questioned the use of wax. A superb cojn! As stated It's commonly thought to be used for impressions for past auctions which always sounded plausible to me. I've got a few coins with minute traces of red wax - better have another look...

If I see wax on a coin I go into overdrive and have one or more late nights.

[Nicholas 51]

Well with that sort of press about your coin Rob, who wouldn't want that lovely coin!! Time to sell?!!

[Rob 3,152]

Well with that sort of press about your coin Rob, who wouldn't want that lovely coin!! Time to sell?!!

I think it's a rerun of an old article. i.e. they were scratching about for something to fill this month's pages.

As for selling it, I don't think so. It is too useful as a research piece for the provincial mints I am working on to get rid. In fact I could do with lots more coins of various types but in a similar condition.

[Nicholas 51]

My apologies rob for being so opportunistic sounding! Are you a numismatic historian, dealer..?

I must say I am fascinated with the provincial mints of Charles and the civil war coins in general. I've got a few siege pieces, Newark nine pence and pontefract shilling are almost as struck... I could look at them all day and have!

[shagreen 24]

I too read the story and questioned the use of wax. A superb cojn! As stated It's commonly thought to be used for impressions for past auctions which always sounded plausible to me. I've got a few coins with minute traces of red wax - better have another look...

I also have a few early 19thC proofs with minute red wax drops on them. I put it down to the numismatists of the day not having access to lighting besides candles! yes I know oil lamps would have been preferred.

[Paulus 1,975]

My apologies rob for being so opportunistic sounding! Are you a numismatic historian, dealer..?

I must say I am fascinated with the provincial mints of Charles and the civil war coins in general. I've got a few siege pieces, Newark nine pence and pontefract shilling are almost as struck... I could look at them all day and have!

Would love to see pics Nicholas!

[Rob 3,152]

My apologies rob for being so opportunistic sounding! Are you a numismatic historian, dealer..?

I must say I am fascinated with the provincial mints of Charles and the civil war coins in general. I've got a few siege pieces, Newark nine pence and pontefract shilling are almost as struck... I could look at them all day and have!

All of it. I deal, collect and question marks are as a red rag to a bull leading me to spend large amounts of time understanding the unexplained.

[Nicholas 51]

My apologies rob for being so opportunistic sounding! Are you a numismatic historian, dealer..?

I must say I am fascinated with the provincial mints of Charles and the civil war coins in general. I've got a few siege pieces, Newark nine pence and pontefract shilling are almost as struck... I could look at them all day and have!

Would love to see pics Nicholas!

http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/2tearsinabucket1/media/image_zps5156f762.jpg.html

http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/2tearsinabucket1/media/image_zpsec3e06b5.jpg.html

[pies 33]

They are a bit special nicholas

[Coinery 1,153]

My apologies rob for being so opportunistic sounding! Are you a numismatic historian, dealer..?

I must say I am fascinated with the provincial mints of Charles and the civil war coins in general. I've got a few siege pieces, Newark nine pence and pontefract shilling are almost as struck... I could look at them all day and have!

Would love to see pics Nicholas!

http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/2tearsinabucket1/media/image_zps5156f762.jpg.html

http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/2tearsinabucket1/media/image_zpsec3e06b5.jpg.html

Usual standard there, then, Nicholas!

[Coinery 1,153]

Phwoarrrr!

[Paulus 1,975]

Phwoarrrr!

Oh Em Gee I had a feeling they would be somewhat special! Please don't be so reluctant to show off your gems they are amazing ... what a pleasure to own those. I keep nudging Rob to display some more of his choice pieces, they trickle in from time to time. Sharing with like-minded collectors is one of the pleasures of the hobby in my opinion, and although I don't (currently) collect hammered I can appreciate a great coin from any era! Thanks Nicholas