Hi Question About 1920 Coin

[tracyaw 1]

This forum was recommended to me by a member on another forum because I had a question about the 1920 George V rarer penny.

I have one of these in which the colon after imp points to a tooth, and all the other characteristics of this variety, including the tiniest dot by the one in the date. Despite numerous searches on the Internet and at online auctions I have not been able to find a value for this coin. If anyone has any information please can you advise. Thanks.

[Peckris 579]

This forum was recommended to me by a member on another forum because I had a question about the 1920 George V rarer penny.

I have one of these in which the colon after imp points to a tooth, and all the other characteristics of this variety, including the tiniest dot by the one in the date. Despite numerous searches on the Internet and at online auctions I have not been able to find a value for this coin. If anyone has any information please can you advise. Thanks.

It's absolutely essential you post a picture of the obverse. The 1920 penny you speak of, is so rare that to date, only one specimen is known (in the British Museum) and no others have come to light despite much searching.

To satisfy your own curiosity, get yourself a high grade penny dated between 1914 and 1919, and another dated 1922. Then compare your penny with both. You will probably find that it corresponds to the pre-1920 example. The difference between the two very roughly correspond to the differences between large silver pre-1920, and that between 1921 and 1926 (not Modified Effigy). Of course not precisely, as the legend is not the same on the bronze as it is on the silver, but the reducing of the height of the bust profile is the same, and the consequent 'shallowing' of the hair detail.

But if you'd like us to comment, please post a picture of the obverse.

[tracyaw 1]

I got the David J Groom book and compared this coin to another 25 1920s I have.. Now unfortunately the teeth on this have worn on the top near the imp. But all the other characteristics check out. Also I have looked at the IMP colon through a loupe and it is pointing at what would be a tooth. One characteristics in Groom's images the DEF IND colon under a tooth, but I checked all my 1920 and the colon is pointing at a tooth. In the one I am thinking is the rare one the colon points between the teeth of Def IND. Also Groom mentions a raised dot near the 1 of the date, mine too has this dot.

[declanwmagee 122]

Hi Tracey. Well done for doing as much research as you have done. These 3 photos are of Obverse 2 (top), Obverse 3 (middle), and your penny (bottom).

Look at the spacing of the the A of GRA, the colon, and the B of BRITT. You'll see that the gaps between the letters and the colon are wider on the middle photo. Your penny is, I'm afraid, Obverse 2 (close letters).

[tracyaw 1]

Yes thanks for the pictures Declan. There is a big difference between the gap of the OB 3 GRA BRITT and the OB 2. I have not managed to see a comparison as with the pictures you have shown. I really appreciate the effort thanks so much.

[tracyaw 1]

Just out of interest, this is a pic of two 1920. The one on top is the one I thought was the rare 1920, and there seems to be a an extra bit running down the side of the A in GRA. I am not clutching at staws lol, I just see so many differences between these two 1920s

http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p328/rebelesque/grabritt.jpg

Edited August 3, 2013 by tracyaw

[Accumulator 52]

Yes Declan is right, unfortunately your example has the normal obverse 2. If you keep looking for rarities you may well find something, so don't give up!

[Rob 3,152]

Although the top image isn't clear, there is also an extra line running down the side of the bottom A. This would be an example of a double cut letter, but as dies were engraved on a reducing machine by this time must be on the master. Some of the letters appear to be a bit thicker, but that might just be down to wear. The more worn the coin the wider they appear because the sides of the letters are bevelled. If there are differences in the punches used for letters on both obverses this would imply two masters, but it would be unwise to claim that on the basis of a worn coin and would require comparing two mint state examples. You also get die blocking, so the apparent profile of a character changes, but this is due to the fine incuse detail on the die filling with metal particles produced during striking and is quite common on worn dies.

[declanwmagee 122]

If you have an eye for this sort of thing, there's plenty of undiscovered treasure to be found

Just taking pennies, for instance:

1946, 1940, 1926, 1922, 1916, 1915, 1913, 1911, 1909, 1908, 1903 and 1902 all have scarcer varieties at varying levels of obviousness.

If you have a stack of 1921s, see if you can sort them into Obv 2 and Obv 3. There are roughly similar numbers of each.

[tracyaw 1]

Also the tapering and the Fid Def are different: It looks like the Def on the one I thought was rare is further away The none rare I thought was rare (lol) is on the top.

http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p328/rebelesque/fiddef.jpg

http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p328/rebelesque/taperingT.jpg

[tracyaw 1]

Thanks for you responses., I really appreciate your input. Yes Declan, I love looking for varieties. For example I have a 1944 that has both 4s pointing at teeth And I really recently found a 1926 Modified Effigy. The 1922 reverse 1927 still eludes me as does the 1897 High tide. It is fascinating

[azda 979]

Thanks for you responses., I really appreciate your input. Yes Declan, I love looking for varieties. For example I have a 1944 that has both 4s pointing at teeth And I really recently found a 1926 Modified Effigy. The 1922 reverse 1927 still eludes me as does the 1897 High tide. It is fascinating

If you click on accumulators website in his signature there you'll find the 1922 reverse 1927

[tracyaw 1]

Pic of full Obverse in higher format and size:

http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p328/rebelesque/fullob.jpg

[Peter 615]

Welcome Tracy

The 1d boys know their stuff.

[Paulus 1,975]

Welcome Tracy

The 1d boys know their stuff.

They sure do, and Accumulator's cabinet style photo gallery is truly superb!

Welcome to the Forum

[Accumulator 52]

Welcome Tracy

The 1d boys know their stuff.

They sure do, and Accumulator's cabinet style photo gallery is truly superb!

Welcome to the Forum

You're very kind. I actually have a few more coins to add when I get time.

Welcome to the forum Tracy.

[tracyaw 1]

Thank you Peter, Paulus and Accumalator. You're all very helpful and I appreciate and respect your input.

[tracyaw 1]

LOl, I use Accumalator's site so much; ave done for months. Beautiul pennies. But I have never checked out the 1922 1927 reverse. Shall do so now

Edited August 3, 2013 by tracyaw

[Peckris 579]

I got the David J Groom book and compared this coin to another 25 1920s I have.. Now unfortunately the teeth on this have worn on the top near the imp. But all the other characteristics check out. Also I have looked at the IMP colon through a loupe and it is pointing at what would be a tooth. One characteristics in Groom's images the DEF IND colon under a tooth, but I checked all my 1920 and the colon is pointing at a tooth. In the one I am thinking is the rare one the colon points between the teeth of Def IND. Also Groom mentions a raised dot near the 1 of the date, mine too has this dot.

Yours is the common variety. I'm not going on pointings or anything like that, simply on my own personal experience over many years. You see, the 1922 & 26 wear differently to the the earlier one, and they are also less 'rounded' (edge-to-middle). From the wear pattern on yours, and the roundedness of it, I'd have no hesitation saying it's the normal obverse.

But as has been said, there are many varieties of other dates, and those are far from unique like the 1920! so keep looking and have fun.

[tracyaw 1]

Although I do agree it is not the rare variety 1920. It is definately not the Obverse 3 either as there are quite a few differences between Ob 3 and the one I have.

Also I have looked at Accumalator's 1944 and mine is different again, so there must be many more viarieties than what have been discovered in Groom's book, and others.

My 1944:

[Peckris 579]

... there must be many more viarieties than what have been discovered in Groom's book, and others.

I'm sure you're right. However, do be aware that pretty much all of these will be what we call 'micro varieties', of which there are only a relatively small number of collectors / interest.

[tracyaw 1]

Actually I found a thread on here today concerning the 1944 pointing at beads. So I have some info at last. Groom does cover it but I got more info off here.

[Accumulator 52]

Although I do agree it is not the rare variety 1920. It is definately not the Obverse 3 either as there are quite a few differences between Ob 3 and the one I have.

Also I have looked at Accumalator's 1944 and mine is different again, so there must be many more viarieties than what have been discovered in Groom's book, and others.

My 1944:

It does look as though yours is somewhere halfway between the two main catalogued versions, though it's hard to be sure from the photo.

[tracyaw 1]

Do you mean the 1944 Accumalator?

[Accumulator 52]

Do you mean the 1944 Accumalator?

Yes, the 1944. It does appear to be slightly different but we would need a clearer photo to be sure.