Major Varieties Query/question?

[Coinery 1,156]

Would you call a Privy Mark/overmark a 'major' variety?

To give an example...Elizabeth Halfgroats!

There are six different busts, which I can happily call major types! However, there are also 19 Privy Marks, a beaded inner-circle, a wire-line inner circle, 4 Privy Overmarks, plus 3 PM bell coins with pellets behind the bust, no pellets behind the bust, and pellets over II behind the bust. A grand total, if you total them up as PM Cross-Crosslet with bust 1G, PM Cross-Crosslet with bust 3F, PM Martlet with 1G, and so on, of 32 known Halfgroat coins for the E1 series!

Would you say ALL 32 are major varieties? How different does something have to be to be considered major?

I haven't included legend variations or legend errors, as I'm automatically assigning these as minor varieties, but should I even be doing that?

Of interest, when you look at the LIS, lions, shields, and general die-pairings, etc, there are 73 recorded types (so far). Should THESE be treated as major varieties, being so distinctly different?

[TomGoodheart 403]

My only comparison is with shillings of Charles I. Where, as you know, things like changes to a bust design within a recognisable and distinct type are viewed as major varieties (Sharp E1, E2, E3 etc..) as are significant differences to a reverse design.

But pm overmarks? I'd say not.

Of course, there aren't any hard and fast rules really. Generally it's down to whoever first does the classification to decide. Which is why we have a Sharp C2/2 and C2/3, although the only difference between the two is that a lis is missing from the top of the shield, but several rather different looking busts which are all clumped together as D4/

A more major study was undertaken by Roy Osborne, who differentiated between different harp designs and the like. The problem is .. that resulted in a very complex classifaction. Probably the reason most shilling collectors stick to Michael Sharp's nomenclature is it's simplicity!

Edited October 7, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[Coinery 1,156]

I guess what I had in my head was the freeman catalogue, where a hammered E1 Halfgroat PM (as they are undated) would be the equivilent of a year-date, and maybe a PM overmark equivilent to say a wide-date/narrow-date, open 3 maybe?

Reverse lis and lion differences etc, similar to lighthouses and trident details, possibly, and perhaps legend variations at least equivilent to O'NE etc?

With an F number, do people consider their acquisition a major variety, or a combination of major AND minor varieties?

[Rob 3,152]

I think anything becomes a major variety once the collector base is broad enough. This is the only way to explain the huge amounts paid for some of the trivial differences in the bronze penny series for example. Different busts or reverse designs are clearly major, in fact, anything that doesn't need a glass is significant enough to be considered major. Collectors tend to be all or nothing people. Either they collect the minutest variety as part of an in depth study, or else they collect according to the preset parameters laid down by a reference book. Once something is in print, someone will collect it. Then you have the type collector, to whom a missing dot is anathema. They just want a nice example that is obviously different from the previous and next types. Overmarks are likely to be considered significant to a series or denomination collector unless by prior restriction to the criteria. Personally I would collect overmarks, but I'm a nerd. My privy mark section in the list of things to get has 326 entries of which about half are overmarks - doubtless more will be added. As Richard said, too complicated and people switch off, but that therefore means that the collector who eats, sleeps and drinks a series will probably have the info in his head and so collect anything he can recognise. It also depends on the series being collected. Milled legend variations are major because they occur infrequently, but hammered ones are probably minor unless completely garbled because most series have a number of variations such as MAG BRI FRA or MA BR FR, or MAG BRI FR etc. As these were all valid options for the engraver, the various combinations occur with monotonous frequency, so only someone like Osborne or BCW for example will go to that depth.

[Coinery 1,156]

Thanks, gents, much appreciated!

On the subject of overmarks, I got lucky tonight with what looks to be a PM Rose/Cross-Crosslet penny! Can't say as I've ever seen a rose penny on the 'bay before, especially nice to find the overmark variety!

Edit: does have a tiny chip though!

Edited October 7, 2013 by Coinery

[Rob 3,152]

Thanks, gents, much appreciated!

On the subject of overmarks, I got lucky tonight with what looks to be a PM Rose/Cross-Crosslet penny! Can't say as I've ever seen a rose penny on the 'bay before, especially nice to find the overmark variety!

Edit: does have a tiny chip though!

I saw that.

[Coinery 1,156]

Thanks, gents, much appreciated!

On the subject of overmarks, I got lucky tonight with what looks to be a PM Rose/Cross-Crosslet penny! Can't say as I've ever seen a rose penny on the 'bay before, especially nice to find the overmark variety!

Edit: does have a tiny chip though!

I saw that.

Makes up for missing the martlet penny yesterday that sold for £24

[Peter 615]

Win some lose some.That's life.

It is the ones you miss and the benefit of hindsight that keeps you going.

With varieties in virgin territories you have to to define your own.

Stuart...pen to paper (or finger to keyboard) time.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Peter

[Coinery 1,156]

Win some lose some.That's life.

It is the ones you miss and the benefit of hindsight that keeps you going.

With varieties in virgin territories you have to to define your own.

Stuart...pen to paper (or finger to keyboard) time.

I have just finished my fourth Picture Book for children...does that count?

Been completing the illustrations in the small hours, the only time I've got for such things; very nearly ready to pack them all off to the big guns!

The Pumpy Grottum has turned out to be one of my favourite characters, with 'Moley and the Treetop Cafe' my favourite story!

[Colin G. 147]

Do we get to see any of the pics, or do we have to buy the book

[Coinery 1,156]

Do we get to see any of the pics, or do we have to buy the book

Hah, there'll be no stopping me, you can be sure to get the full whack once they're scanned!

[Peckris 579]

Win some lose some.That's life.

It is the ones you miss and the benefit of hindsight that keeps you going.

With varieties in virgin territories you have to to define your own.

Stuart...pen to paper (or finger to keyboard) time.

I have just finished my fourth Picture Book for children...does that count?

Been completing the illustrations in the small hours, the only time I've got for such things; very nearly ready to pack them all off to the big guns!

The Pumpy Grottum has turned out to be one of my favourite characters, with 'Moley and the Treetop Cafe' my favourite story!

It's good to hear about life outside collecting! I didn't know you were a kids' book illustrator Stuart? Perhaps we should ask Chris to set up a new forum, "What We Do When We're Not Collecting". I'm an amateur photographer but the members of that forum are far more talented than I, so I'm a bit shy there (no, no, really..).

[Colin G. 147]

Win some lose some.That's life.

It is the ones you miss and the benefit of hindsight that keeps you going.

With varieties in virgin territories you have to to define your own.

Stuart...pen to paper (or finger to keyboard) time.

I have just finished my fourth Picture Book for children...does that count?

Been completing the illustrations in the small hours, the only time I've got for such things; very nearly ready to pack them all off to the big guns!

The Pumpy Grottum has turned out to be one of my favourite characters, with 'Moley and the Treetop Cafe' my favourite story!

It's good to hear about life outside collecting! I didn't know you were a kids' book illustrator Stuart? Perhaps we should ask Chris to set up a new forum, "What We Do When We're Not Collecting". I'm an amateur photographer but the members of that forum are far more talented than I, so I'm a bit shy there (no, no, really..).

I am quite involved with a degu forum (little furry creatures from Chile) and also do quite a bit of metal detecting when I find the time!!

[RLC35 288]

Win some lose some.That's life.

It is the ones you miss and the benefit of hindsight that keeps you going.

With varieties in virgin territories you have to to define your own.

Stuart...pen to paper (or finger to keyboard) time.

I have just finished my fourth Picture Book for children...does that count?

Been completing the illustrations in the small hours, the only time I've got for such things; very nearly ready to pack them all off to the big guns!

The Pumpy Grottum has turned out to be one of my favourite characters, with 'Moley and the Treetop Cafe' my favourite story!

It's good to hear about life outside collecting! I didn't know you were a kids' book illustrator Stuart? Perhaps we should ask Chris to set up a new forum, "What We Do When We're Not Collecting". I'm an amateur photographer but the members of that forum are far more talented than I, so I'm a bit shy there (no, no, really..).

I am quite involved with a degu forum (little furry creatures from Chile) and also do quite a bit of metal detecting when I find the time!!

I restore antique Campers. Here is one I have done...a 1962 Shasta, with Wings!

[Peter 615]

I also have an interest in antiques,fossils,fishing,Ipswich Town fc,DIY and my newly acquired MGTF.(Mrs Peter is taking an unhealthy interest in this)

Just the motorbike to go now.

Detecting is also an interest but getting permission on new sites is getting harder.

[Peter 615]

Looks a nice van Bob.(I thought RV's killed these off in the US)

You need the pulling vehicle to match.

[RLC35 288]

Looks a nice van Bob.(I thought RV's killed these off in the US)

You need the pulling vehicle to match.

Peter,

There is a huge resurgence in Camping her in the USA, and it is being let by the Girls, believe it or not! They are fixing up vintage Campers, usually with special features, curtains, ect, and going "Glamping"...Glamour Camping. There is one group call "Sisters on the Fly" who not only fix up the old Campers, but use them as base camps for fly fishing expeditions. The red and white one in the picture I gave to my daughter, who uses it for visiting Music Rallies, etc. It is very popular! One of the nice things about a pull behind camper is that you can leave the camper, and drive your car around, if you wish, while you are camping.

Edited October 8, 2013 by RLC35

[Peckris 579]

I also have an interest in antiques,fossils,fishing,Ipswich Town fc,DIY

Aren't four of those the same thing? Still, there's always fishing...

[Coinery 1,156]

Just to clear up a small detail! As much as I would like to proclaim it, I'm not a published children's author OR illustrator...I am however just about to submit my first 4 books (with my own illustrations) to half a dozen agents!

I've been writing Am. Dram. Plays and other writingy things, since I was around 20...I used to write for a falconry publication in the early 90's but oddly never really pursued writing as a career!

So, now's the time, and I'm giving it my biggest hit, so finger's crossed!

Move over Julia Donaldson!

[Coinery 1,156]

I also have an interest in antiques,fossils,fishing,Ipswich Town fc,DIY

Aren't four of those the same thing? Still, there's always fishing...

However, I do take an occasional interest in the fortunes of Sunderland, so what can I say...think I'll keep it zipped!

[Peckris 579]

Just to clear up a small detail! As much as I would like to proclaim it, I'm not a published children's author OR illustrator...I am however just about to submit my first 4 books (with my own illustrations) to half a dozen agents!

I've been writing Am. Dram. Plays and other writingy things, since I was around 20...I used to write for a falconry publication in the early 90's but oddly never really pursued writing as a career!

So, now's the time, and I'm giving it my biggest hit, so finger's crossed!

Move over Julia Donaldson!

Fingers crossed for you Stuart - I'm also a (barely) published writer, with lots of letters, some magazine articles, a couple of pieces for an avant-garde press, and a novel that got 'long-listed' for an Unpublished Novel competition a few years back. So I know what that particular battleground is like, and I wish you every success

[Coinery 1,156]

Hey, thanks, Peck...truly appreciated!

They say there's a novel in all of us, I've written 2 over the years, which I now call my 'education'! Interestingly, one was about C1 and Henrietta fleeing the land with hoards of coins, even before my major interest in coins, and long before Shardlake and the present trend in historical novels!

The gold and silver, meant for france, was finally buried on Steep Holme, where it still remains today!

Don't forget to finish YOUR novels one day!

[Peckris 579]

Hey, thanks, Peck...truly appreciated!

They say there's a novel in all of us, I've written 2 over the years, which I now call my 'education'! Interestingly, one was about C1 and Henrietta fleeing the land with hoards of coins, even before my major interest in coins, and long before Shardlake and the present trend in historical novels!

The gold and silver, meant for france, was finally buried on Steep Holme, where it still remains today!

Don't forget to finish YOUR novels one day!

Oh, I've finished it three times already - it will soon be time for the 4th revision.

[DaveG38 405]

Win some lose some.That's life.

It is the ones you miss and the benefit of hindsight that keeps you going.

With varieties in virgin territories you have to to define your own.

Stuart...pen to paper (or finger to keyboard) time.

I have just finished my fourth Picture Book for children...does that count?

Been completing the illustrations in the small hours, the only time I've got for such things; very nearly ready to pack them all off to the big guns!

The Pumpy Grottum has turned out to be one of my favourite characters, with 'Moley and the Treetop Cafe' my favourite story!

It's good to hear about life outside collecting! I didn't know you were a kids' book illustrator Stuart? Perhaps we should ask Chris to set up a new forum, "What We Do When We're Not Collecting". I'm an amateur photographer but the members of that forum are far more talented than I, so I'm a bit shy there (no, no, really..).

As we're talking about life outside coins and outside coin books, I'll mention that I too have written a children's book, entitled 'A Calamity of Clutterbucks', including the illustrations. But getting it mainstream published is another matter. I also help my other half with self publishing her poetry books - I do the 'typesetting' and cover designs etc. - she does the poetic stuff.

Otherwise, I have an old Volvo P1800 that takes time and money on a grand scale to keep running, a garden that takes too much time and I play a Surdo (big bass drum) in a Samba band. My other great interest is songwriting, for which I have a Yamaha Motif synthesiser - so far 9 written and just one to go before I find a singer and go to the local studio to record them.

Edited October 8, 2013 by DaveG38

[Coinery 1,156]

Win some lose some.That's life.

It is the ones you miss and the benefit of hindsight that keeps you going.

With varieties in virgin territories you have to to define your own.

Stuart...pen to paper (or finger to keyboard) time.

I have just finished my fourth Picture Book for children...does that count?

Been completing the illustrations in the small hours, the only time I've got for such things; very nearly ready to pack them all off to the big guns!

The Pumpy Grottum has turned out to be one of my favourite characters, with 'Moley and the Treetop Cafe' my favourite story!

It's good to hear about life outside collecting! I didn't know you were a kids' book illustrator Stuart? Perhaps we should ask Chris to set up a new forum, "What We Do When We're Not Collecting". I'm an amateur photographer but the members of that forum are far more talented than I, so I'm a bit shy there (no, no, really..).

As we're talking about life outside coins and outside coin books, I'll mention that I too have written a chidren's book, entitled 'A Calamity of Clutterbucks', including the illustrations. But getting it mainstream published is another matter. I also help my other half with self publishing her poetry books - I do the 'typesetting' and cover designs etc. - she does the poetic stuff.

Otherwise, I have an old Volvo P1800 that takes time and money on a grand scale to keep running, a garden that takes too much time and I play a Surdo (big bass drum) in a Samba band. My other great interest is songwriting, for which I have a Yamaha Motif synthesiser - so far 9 written and just one to go before I find a singer and go to the local studio to record them.

Oh, this is brilliant, what a great title, Dave, I really like the starting point!

I'm going to upload some band pictures of me, when I was about 20...

We recorded a couple of demos and sent then to Fiction Records with some interest from them...but not enough, of course, as we're not today gigging alongside The Cure!

My greatest love of 10 years ago was flying! I so desperately wanted to solo in a Spitfire (plane, not car) when I was younger, that I learned to fly! Greatest shock was the 2K fee for HALF an hour in a Spitfire (accompanied too)! I gave up the dream of WW2 fighter ace, but still wheeled around the skies in a Piper Warrior II in the peace and tranquility of my own company!