Comments Welcome On This 1892 2/6

[Peter 615]

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=160388

Not my cup of tea....but hey.

I also think PCGS have given it a grade above GEF to AUNC.

I would be supprised if CGS would grade it.

[Paulus 1,975]

It's horrible, AT for me too. Keep on winding up those septic tanks Peter!

Don't know what CGS' view on AT is ...

[azda 979]

Did'nt realise if silver looks, well, like silver that its been dipped out. Now thats obviously an American fact. Peter if you go to the useful website thread and in there, there is a link to the chemical artificial toning of Morgan Dollars. Hit him with the link and Tell him we don't dip like the americans

[azda 979]

Did'nt realise if silver looks, well, like silver that its been dipped out. Now thats obviously an American fact. Peter if you go to the useful website thread and in there, there is a link to the chemical artificial toning of Morgan Dollars. Hit him with the link and Tell him we don't dip like the americans

[scott 144]

toning for me would be working from the edges inwards, the colours are just not uniform

[jaggy 528]

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=160388

Not my cup of tea....but hey.

I also think PCGS have given it a grade above GEF to AUNC.

I would be supprised if CGS would grade it.

Your perspective seems to have ruffled a couple of feathers on the forum you linked to

[Peter 615]

I've just told it as I see it.

Debate can't be a bad thing.

I'm just glad in the UK this stuff is just not acceptable to 99% of collectors.

Please tell me if you have ever seen a reputable UK dealer auction or list this sort of thing.

[Paulus 1,975]

I've just told it as I see it.

Debate can't be a bad thing.

I'm just glad in the UK this stuff is just not acceptable to 99% of collectors.

Please tell me if you have ever seen a reputable UK dealer auction or list this sort of thing.

Never, although I have only 6 year's experience. But for such a common issue that is enough to tell me this isn't the real deal. I have trauled through many many dealers' websites, and auctions, and eBay, on a daily basis, you don't see those this side of the pond.

It's like sticking a decent conker in vinegar and then in the oven, you will win a few battles but will be found out eventually.

[VickySilver 832]

Wow, a few dissenters on the PCGS site about this coin, notably Rob with the original poster getting quite testy even when the "opposition" was very mild. Hilarious! I posted several attacks on those a horrible neon Morgan toners over there before and was roundly attacked - even by one individual that supposedly is some sort of "surfaces chemist".

Given up that line of reasoning as it was trying to extricate pigs from the mud...

[Accumulator 52]

Looking at the avatars of some members on the PCGS forum, in that thread, it's clear where they stand on AT!

[Sword 1,489]

It's horrible, AT for me too. Keep on winding up those septic tanks Peter!

Don't know what CGS' view on AT is ...

CGS won't grade coins with AT.

"We then assess if the coin has been enhanced by artificial toning, tooled, polished, plugged, or whizzed. Coins not passing these two tests are returned to the submitter and do not find their way into CGS UK holders."

[azda 979]

AT............ Its all about the money for the American collector, nothing to do with colleecting

[Peter 615]

I've just read the PCGS thread.

The back slapping is hilarious.

15 years ago I assume AT was taking its first tentative steps.

Anyone want a lemming posing pouch?

I think I have sourced plenty of fur.

Extra large and small boys sizes are available to suit all the forum's members

[jaggy 528]

The owner is clearly very defensive of his purchase. The American market is clearly very different to the UK one. From what I can tell - and this is supported by comments on another forum where there are a lot of American collectors - the investment aspect of collecting is hugely important in the USA rather than the intrinsic enjoyment of the coin. This explains why TPG slabbing is so important because it is seen as protecting the investment value of the coin.

[declanwmagee 122]

Anyone fancy linking the PCGS thread? I had a quick look for it at lunchtime but couldn't find it.

I could have done with a laugh because I'd been cutting trees down on a 45 degree slope in the pissing rain all morning. Things I do to pay the rent - jeez...

[Rob 3,152]

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=900585

[bagerap 706]

Quote from the coin's proud owner, over on PCGS forum:

It's been interesting posting this coin on a few world forums -- all of the Brits question the toning. I think they are so unaccustomed to seeing toning, that they have not developed an eye for the tell-tale signs of AT

Which I find breathtaking in its naivety.

[jaggy 528]

Apparently we are "so unaccustomed to seeing toning"

[HistoricCoinage 147]

Quote from the coin's proud owner,

I also got a reply from the owner:

"There is nothing about the toning of this coin that looks "artificial" to my eye -- and I have seen thousands of toned coins."

[VickySilver 832]

Without naming names/posters, the one with a Scotish nomen (okay, Mac- something or other) seems to back this coin up and reference a toning table that is ludicrous - it is a blatant attept to rationalise toning IMO....

[declanwmagee 122]

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=900585

cheers Rob!

[HistoricCoinage 147]

I got linked to this, hmm.

[VickySilver 832]

Yes, that's the table & reference to which I referred. Truisms, but DO NOT SUPPORT his (Mac's) assertion IMO, as the transitions can be doctored up as well from what I understand.

[rpeddie 119]

i think youtube provides an insight into the whole toning of coins these just being the first of many many more AMERICAN movies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jigp4qTkag8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_qs0wO_SEc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrA7Jyw1uOs

i've always wondered is the rainbow toning even a legit toning for silver? i don't even see how it is possible?

[DaveG38 408]

If we take seriously, for a moment, the idea that this is natural toning - don't all shout just yet - then we have to come up with a technical and rational explanation for the toning apparently only occurring on coins in the US. By definition, that means also explaining why silver coins in the UK (and everywhere else in the world?) do not apparently tone in this way. The comment about UK coins being cleaned is just too stupid for words. Sure a few are, but the overwhelming majority are not, and few of those that tone naturally do so in any colour other than shades of grey to black.

Furthermore, have you ever seen rainbow toning on other old British silverware? How many uncleaned Georgian silver tankards have you seen looking like something out of the the Beatles Yellow Submarine album cover. Equally interesting is the question of whether old US silverware also tones in rainbow colours. If it did, then there's a valid argument that there might be something in the US atmosphere that can turn silver into this multitude of colours. Exactly what that might be is difficult to say, since chemically there are few if any silver compounds that are coloured and certainly there are none that would give rainbow colouring. And then there's the question of timescale. I've got a couple of silver picture frames that need polishing evey few years to remove the black tarnish. These don't go through a multicoloured cycle before I clean them, so why would coins?

So, as far as I am aware, silver sulphide is black and even in thin films doesn't display diffraction patterns in the way claimed on this site. The reason for this is that black as a colour doesn't, by definition, radiate energy in the coloured part of the electromagnetic spectrum, hence why is is black, and so it's difficult to see how a gradually blackening surface can start to display coloured toning. The argument on other toning websites is that the copper in the alloy produces other colours on the surface of the coin - that's certainly possible, but it is difficult to see how those colours would dominate when most silver coins are around 90 - 99% silver - black would be expected to dominate. It is also a completely different explanation from the diffraction one.

It's also difficult to see how such diffraction patterns could arise only in the US - at the very least you would expect powdered silver sulphide to exhibit signs of irridescence and as far as I am aware it doesn't. You also have to explain why US silver sulphide produces diffraction patterns and the UK form doesn't, given that they are very simple identical substances. One explanation given is that US silver is 90% and sterling is 92.5% pure - how that makes such a huge difference is very hard to explain, since the overwhelming metal present is silver in both cases and black should quickly mask any strong underlying colours. For older coins, such as the 1800s Morgan Dollars, you'd probably also expect to see considerable signs of the underlying black toning, of the kind seen on Victoria Crowns say. Here the silver tends to go a nice steely grey with often darker ares of toning around the design. I haven't see this on the rainbow toned coins I've looked at at all, suggesting that they are cleaned before the toning can be applied. This is not to say that diffraction patterns or surface treaments are not the explanation for the colours - it's the reason these are present that matters and that isn't explained.

I also don't buy the idea of cycles of toning as suggested on the above website, simply because I'd expect toning to be continuously progressive, not switching colour according to the thickness of the layer of sulphide or presence of copper - take your pick as to the explanation. I also don't buy the idea that the toning is natural simply because of the unnatural way in which the colours are spread out on the coins - that's not generally the way natural silver toning to black occurs, so I don't see why it would in the US.

And finally, the giveaway, tucked away well down the page, is the admission that not all silver coins will tone to rainbow colours and artificially toned coins CAN follow the chart that the owner has designed. In other words there's no guaranteed way to tell natural from artificial toning. Based on this it isn't a big step to conclude that maybe all rainbow coins are artifically toned, since this follows from the extrapolation of these two statements. My view - it's likely all AT and a hype to extract money from people.

Edited October 17, 2013 by DaveG38